New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

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New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Love to hear your feedback on this Destiny from Chase and I. Mostly Chase, he did all the heavy lifting. I just offered some initial advice and helped polish the edges. =)




Dragon Disciple
You gain a great, elder dragon as a mentor.

Dragon Mind - Level 4 Feature
There are great powers in the world and some of the strongest are the elder dragons. You have managed to earn the mentorship of such a creature. Whether you won the great dragon’s respect with heroic deeds or whether the mighty creature has just taken a liking to you, the ancient dragon has decided to take you under its wing. The creature has entrusted you with the knowledge of its species, granting you the ability to speak and understand the language of dragons. You also have gained a mental link with the dragon, being able to question it on important matters and see if it has any wisdom on ancient relics, mythology, or civilizations that he has had the fortune to come across during his lifetime. Once per day you may mentally contact your dragon friend to ask its advice, gaining you +10 to one of your knowledge checks.

Dragon Body - Level 7 Feature
Your long contact with the elder dragon has begun to make you much more like one of the dragon’s own kind. You may choose two of the following three benefits.

Dragon Wings
You gain the, “Flight School” utility talent, even if you don’t meet the other prerequisites.

Dragon Heart
You gain +3 to two attributes of your choice.

Fireborn
You are immune to any heat below that of an adult dragon’s breath. You can also create puffs of flame at will. These puffs of flame are identical to a torch in many respects and are capable of burning objects and lighting fires outside of combat just as a torch might. Puffs of flame are ordinary fire, they extinguish quickly without tinder. In addition, you gain the, “Firebreathing” utility talent.

Firebreathing - At Will
Preparation Time - 6 Seconds
You create either a burst of blinding fireworks (blinding all creatures that see it within 120-ft of the fire source) or a thick cloud of smoke (extending 20 feet in all directions from the fire source and lasting 18 seconds).

Dragon Soul - Level 10 Feature
Your dragon friend has reached the end of his lifetime, but he will not leave you alone in this world. While you lose the ability to contact your friend, the dragon leaves you with three parting gifts. First, the ancient dragon imbues you with all the vast knowledge of his lifetime; granting you +10 to Knowledge as well as access to many esoteric secrets. Second, he grants you sole inheritance of his vast treasure horde. Finally, your dragon friend blesses you with the longevity of dragons - making you nearly ageless. Though all things pass in time, your natural lifespan extends to that of the great dragons of the world. You carry the legacy of your dragon friend. Make your mentor proud.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:04 pm

WOW.... Just wow... I like this, I like this a LOT. It looks awesome, just plain awesome.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Jason Shadow on Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:51 pm

Might as well get the obligatory related musical link here before someone else does.

But in all seriousness, this is a great Destiny! As someone who is an avid fan of half-dragons, the Draconic bloodline in Pathfinder, and pretty much any player option that lets PCs be as dragon-y as possible, I wholeheartedly approve of this. I can tell that if I ever get around to actually playing, this'll be one of my favorite Destinies.

Then again, I just can't help but feel a little sorry for the dragon mentor when one reaches Level Ten... Sad
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:58 pm

Yeah... Why must all our favorite mentors die? Sad
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Demonu on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:57 am

Another dragon related destiny? Meh, don't expect me to jump into the air with ecstacy but let's take a look regardless.

For what it is, it seems fairly balanced save for the level 10 tier, which I'll address lastly.

Level 4: Asking advice or information sounds pretty useful. You also mention said elder dragon mentor has taken a liking to your PC. Would that extent to coming to your help/rescue when procted or coming along for a stroll or flying you somewhere? Because so far, all we've seen adult dragons do in the show is sleeping on their hoard and the great dragon migration. What does a dragon do all day anyway? That aside, is the elder dragon mentor going to stay in his or her cave/mountain/? all the time? Seeing how he or she likes your PC and is your mentor, isn't it fair to assume you could ask it for (small) favors and just how far could/would those extent?

Level 7: Looks pretty solid. Only thing I would want clarified is if Dragon Heart applies to non-trained attributes or all attributes. Because if the latter, an Arcana specialized build can turn It's Witchcraft into "Do Whatever Magic Thingymajig I Want" and with the right utility talents even more so, hitting a DC of 35 and higher with ease. It's Witchcraft already is an extremely versatile talent but I'd like to avoid turning it into a Magic Swiss Army Knife without setting DC's ridiculously high.

EDIT: I derped. It gives +3 to attributes not skills. So essentially you get +3 in 5-6 skills based on which attributes you choose. Thanks for pointing that out, Silentbelle

Level 10: Here's where my inner powergamer is really clashing with my inner balancer. The +10 to knowledge isn't as much a bother as level 10 characters should be very knowledgeable at that point. Again the question is how far it stretches. This is more from a flavour/game/role play perspective rather than a game mechanic's one but does that roll extent to things said elder dragon mentor possibly couldn't have known about? This point is probably moot but just asking for clarification. Same goes for esoteric secrets: just what can be considered esoteric secrets? This will probably change from GM to GM and from game to game but yeah, this is just me overthinking this stuff.

EDIT: as Xel Unknown points out, said +10 knowledge could be applied to Arcana, potentially raising it to a 31 base check without rolling a die, as you can easily make the plea that an elder dragon would know quite a lot about magic (in general)

It's the dragon's hoard and longevity that irks me more. Mostly because how vague it is and in relation to the other destinies, make them seem less special. You get the Immortalis from Miracle Worker (albeit without the healing stuff) and the dragon's treasure hoard could probably buy everything from the Tycoon one (level 10 tier)

Speaking of, how do we define this dragon's treasure hoard? Probably up to the GM to decide but could it also include magic/mythological/legendary artifacts or should it just be monetary value?

Meh, all this ranting probably won't change anything significant about it and if Dan approves of it, let's place it in the Player's Handbook. It's just that my mind makes the jump from "How can I use this?" to "How can I abuse this?" pretty quick. Maybe I've been playing the game a bit too much Razz

TL;DR disregard the above and enjoy your new draconic destiny.


Last edited by Demonu on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  SilentBelle on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:40 am

Well, it was long and I did read it Demonu. I do agree with every point you raise, especially the level 10 stuff with the treasure hoard, but I can clarify for the Dragon Heart choice. It gives +3 to attributes not skills. So essentially you get +3 in 5-6 skills based on which attributes you choose. Now, I don't think it's witchcraft is really a Swiss-army knife for everything. But this destiny can surely help those people that like to specialize with it.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:51 am

Oh second thought and another look over the destiny... Demonu is 100% right on all accounts. There are some big flaws that can be exploited and the level ten tier is a bit vage. Just the power to give yourself a 10+ arcana bost whenever you want to... Gives a lot of power to Unicorns. And there are a bit too many of Dragon-related destiny's out there in the drafted stuff that may or may not get in an official expansion. Not that it's a bad thing, just something to be aware of cause, dragon stuff should be a bit more rarer and stuff the more I think about it. Just my random two bits on this... Hope it helps...
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Demonu on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:05 am

SilentBelle wrote:Now, I don't think it's witchcraft is really a Swiss-army knife for everything. But this destiny can surely help those people that like to specialize with it.
It's Witchcraft deals with everything magical and for every action out there, there's a magical equivalent/spell for it (broadly speaking) and it can be used to replicate any effect not already covered by the utility talents. It can even duplicate those effects but that comes with a higher DC.

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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Inferno1114 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:07 am

The other 2 dragons in the draft are almost null and void. This was the compromise for them until they are worked on ,which may not happen. And yes, +10 to knowledge checks are huge, and this does help unicorns with witchcraft, but there are still certain restrictions to what magic can do, and DMs can always be creative like making non magical areas. Also by level 10 when you can abuse that, you should have other items in the game that can be seen as just as strong. As for the treasure Horde, it is up to the DM on what to clarify is in it, whether its just Jewels or magical items as well, but you imagine what treasures a dragon has collected if they are at the point in their life where they are dying from old age.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Demonu on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:12 am

but there are still certain restrictions to what magic can do
It's magic, theoratically it has no limits. That aside, every fysical activity can be replicated by the use of magic and that alone makes magic/It's Witchcraft extremely versatile. And that's not even speaking about other effects.
DMs can always be creative like making non magical areas.
What some might see as creative, others might see as a dick move. Believe me, when you, as a GM, are going to take measures just because a single player is maxing out on Arcana, they'll soon accuse you of picking on them, that they are perfectly operating within the rules and/or that you have to resort to cheap tactics just to keep them in line.

As a GM, it's generally considered a bad thing to say no to a player (proposal)
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Inferno1114 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:19 am

Lets see, someone has to climb up a mountain, you can try to use magic to teleport up it, but its too tall to make it. Also, if you teleport to a random spot, you will lose your footing and slide back down the mountain. This is when they will need to use Athletics to do it. If they need to manipulate a lock pick they need to use mechanics because even with ponykinesis, it requires careful aim and precision to pick the lock, and just having powerful magic doesn't mean you have Finesse. Same thing for convincing people to believe a story you tell them. You can be all powerful and wise, but if you don't make a convincing argument noone will listen to you.

Magic is not a save all for every situation. It is just useful and has a variety of uses. A swiss army knife still can;'t perform every job, just a large portion of them.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Demonu on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:30 am

Inferno1114 wrote:Lets see, someone has to climb up a mountain, you can try to use magic to teleport up it, but its too tall to make it. Also, if you teleport to a random spot, you will lose your footing and slide back down the mountain.
The example given in the DM Guidebook actually uses teleportation to illustrate the use of It's Witchcraft. It makes the point that taking the utility talent in all ways is better but to teleport a small distance, it suggest a DC between 25 to 35. With the potential 21/31 Arcana, that's easy to make.

And yes, I do concur that for things specifically covered by other attributes/skills, it's better to use those skills. But believe me, a creative person will come up with reasons and explinations to justify using Arcana for everything when they get 20+ in it.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Philadelphus on Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:58 pm

On the one hand, I'd say that if you can't think of a way to use It's Witchcraft! to help you with something, you're not thinking creatively enough. Smile I can think of a dozen ways to get past the scenarios mentioned a few posts up using it just off the top of my head.

On the other hand, not everyone who takes It's Witchcraft! is necessarily a power gamer who will use it break the game at every opportunity. I mean, I've had It's Witchcraft! since the start of the campaign I'm in and my cutie mark in Arcana, and 9 sessions in I have yet to use it.

And on the gripping hand, this is a level 10 destiny feature. By that time the PC should be pretty powerful already, plus the campaign should probably be in its final act, so it shouldn't be too big of a problem. If it was a level 4 feature I could see it being an issue, but it seems to me that level 10 destiny features should be pretty powerful. And again, this all assumes that it's taken by a unicorn who specialized in Arcana and took It's Witchcraft!. 99% of character builds will just have a handy +10 bonus to knowledge stuff.

Although, typing that inspired a question in me: if you take Dragon's Heart from the level 7 tier and apply one of the bonuses to Knowledge, could you get a +13 bonus to Knowledge at level 10?
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  XandZero2 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:00 am

Okay, I'm going to put my two bits in here too. Sorry if this seems like we're ganging up on you Inferno, but is this the Destiny that you're planning to use in Commander Shepard's campaign?

If so, you are using a Unicorn with Arcana 17 already, and for a character like that, I agree that this Destiny looks a bit OP (and a little too vague) at Lvl 10. Unicorns will be the main race taking it because it allows them to abuse It's Witchcraft, and if you're a Unicorn and you don't take this Destiny, you might be a little underpowered. Also, the stat boosts from Dragon Heart don't count as training, right? So you can add it to a trained skill?

Maybe the boosts should count as extra trainings instead?

Also, the dragon horde idea is flavorful, but it just sounds more like a Lvl 9 Boon to me.

Those are my thoughts, take them as you will.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  LoganAura on Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:55 am

I got an easy way to fix all of the "Attribute op ness."
The bonus doesn't effect the skills in the tree.
Dan's done flat Knowledge and Horse-sense before, so it might fix it up a bit.

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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Cardbo on Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:25 am

LoganAura wrote:I got an easy way to fix all of the "Attribute op ness."
The bonus doesn't effect the skills in the tree.
Dan's done flat Knowledge and Horse-sense before, so it might fix it up a bit.

I can't personally say I like this. In the couple games I've played in, I really haven't seen flat Knowledge or Horse-sense rolls. Maybe make the attribute bonus smaller?
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:03 pm

Yeah I'd suggest putting down to bost to maybe a +8 or +7 or +6 (+5 just seems to small a bost to me personally.) Would fix it's issues?
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Inferno1114 on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:50 pm

@XandZero, Unicorns may take this to boost their knowledge and therefore Arcana checks, or they will chose the Archmage which is intended for the spellcasters. It lets them use their arcana skill 3 times a day as one of their other important rolls, so they will already be trying to buff up their Arcana. This one improves your arcana for when you use magic, but the other one lets you use arcana in more various situations. The Dragon Horde is indeed similar to what a level 9 boon would hold, but again, its a reward for your Destiny and waiting that long. If you want, you can treat it like a boon and split the treasure with your party, but the reward overall belongs to you.



As for the rest of the comments, the reason its that big a buff is because its a level 10 Destiny. Most Destinies give you some sort of cool new move, or improve a utility you already have, like free Crazy Contraptions or Resurrections, or always knowing if someone lies to you which would be usually like a Grandmaster Perception roll (aka45). This one only gives you +10 to knowledge as a Direct impact, not saying anything you try to do with magic or knowledge is an instant success. Sure, it can help your rolls for Arcana, Healing, or History, but at level 10, you are supposed to seem extremely powerful. At level 4, it only gives you the +10 once a day, so its the equivalent of a free magic point to boost your roll. As for the level 7, OPness, the attribute is supposed to seem worth it for level 7. Gaining 2 utilities worth of flight, or essentially 2 utilities worth of fire are strong ,and you have the option to chose both if you want. The other option needs to seem just as cool to persuade them to chose a stat boost over 2 new utilities. so if they gain +3 on their rolls for maybe half of their skills, it will seem worth it. it still does not prevent the DM from setting High DCs or you getting a crit fail, but it means you are more likely to succeed on checks. In Living Legends, Minotaurs have a racial where they automatically get the +3 to their Athletics skill (training in Stunts and Endurance) right out the gate. As a level 7 Destiny, it should be stronger than something you can get for free when it takes that much time to obtain it.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:52 am

Hey folks.

I've run 4e games when I let players use Arcana even without a specific talent-cost and racial restriction (the way this game does it) identical to our version of, "It's Witchcraft". One player was rocking +40 on arcana checks by *mid-level*. To put that in context, a 40 is a HARD DC for the maximum level in the game.

And yet, while the character was extremely useful... It didn't break anything. As a DM, you get to decide on the DC for things.

Furthermore, it's important to remember that the level 10 dragon disciple feature involves losing its level 4 feature. It does need to be more powerful than other level 10 features to stay fair.

That said, it may indeed be too powerful. Not broken, but too powerful. I'm considering having the players choose a knowledge skill to apply the bonus to - or else make it +5 with the level 4 feature being a 2/day +5 bonus. It depends on how valuable the dragon's hoard is. That's a significant X factor, and one up to DM control to make sure things stay balanced.

Remember, at level 10 things are supposed to get nuts. It's just time to explode with power and have fun. Don't forget, the Master Detective has not +10 to detecting lying (very important in roleplaying) but +INFINITE to detecting lying. He simply cannot be lied to.

However, the level 7 untyped bonus to attributes might be too strong. I'll take a look at that.

Either way, I'm not sure the destiny isn't overpowered yet. But it's definitely not broken. Y'all are letting your It's Witchcraft imaginations run away with you. Teleporting to the top of a mountain with anything less than an 80 arcana check? That's just silly.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Demonu on Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:43 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Either way, I'm not sure the destiny isn't overpowered yet. But it's definitely not broken. Y'all are letting your It's Witchcraft imaginations run away with you. Teleporting to the top of a mountain with anything less than an 80 arcana check? That's just silly.
Problem is that most GM's have no idea how to set the DC for "It's Witchcraft"

The example provided in the GM's handbook is rather vague, especially for someone who has never done such a thing like GM'ing before, so then they look to the list above it and see that 40 is the most difficult one provided and go with that. Sure, it's pointed out that DC's can be set higher but if one doesn't have a frame of reference, they have no idea what's appropriate, too high, or plain impossible.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:16 pm

*sighs* Very true. It's sometimes hard to remember that not everyone has the same game designer background. =)

I'll have to expand upon that when I get the time. But in general, "it's witchcraft" shouldn't be any better for magical tasks than "athletics" should be for physical tasks. And It's Witchcraft can't let you make up brand new spells on the spot, like warping to the top of mountains... But nothing is truly impossible, so you just set an unthinkably high DC. If you want the group to still be able to reach it if they blow lots of resources, let them use all their magic points. If you don't want it to be possible at all, limit the number of magic points usable on the skill check (you can do that y'know).

Magic requires intense study. You can't just randomly whip out fully-composed spells with your arcana checks... Unless they're of the most minor variety (like the classic Prestidigitation). Even Twilight has only a few limited spells at her disposal, and she's supposed to be one of the best.

It's Witchcraft is used to fiddle with existing magical effects - such as bending back a forcefield enough for you to slip by or dispelling an enchantment. Maybe used to improve one of your magical utility talents by a bit. It's not used to upset the cosmic balance.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Philadelphus on Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:46 pm

Just as an amusing anecdote, in Pony Team Bravo's latest session where we reached level 4 it was the earth pony who took this destiny, not any of the four unicorns. Including two with cutie marks in Arcana and It's Witchcraft!.
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:50 pm

I didn't want the dragon parts, and I already had plans for how AU would work the Inveter too... And still... You recall what that earth pony Pulled off with this skill in that session too...
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Re: New Official Destiny - Dragon Disciple

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