Items - The Playtest Document!

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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:38 pm

Change is gonna come. You might have noticed that items are already being rewritten with strange things like, "minor actions" and, "standard attacks". This is going to make everything simpler, trust me. Don't have time to explain everything at the moment, but if you check out the tabletop combat rules linked in the Living Legends player's handbook - they explain all about minor actions. As for the "attack" keyword, it's going to make it a lot easier to determine what an "attack" is.

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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:32 pm

I ended up trying out a test One-On-One with a friend to test the weapons we both wanted to get for our level 4 (I'm not 100% sure but I think his was lvl 3 or his either way we overall had the same power)

My items Plus Personal Character Flavor.
Spoiler:
Super Clockwork HI-POWER LAZER! (Oversized Sword) (Weapon) (1500 Bits) (FEZ)
You may use the following combat talent.

[-4] Shoop-Da-Whoop! (Not Compensating For Something) - Standard Attack
Deal 1d20+1d12 damage to target creature. If you roll a 19-20 on your d20, you may activate all three of your Special Move Features.

Cloak of Shielding (Banded Armor) (Armor) (1500 Bits)
You have resist 2 against single-target attacks.

Necklace of Friendship (Amulet of Extraordinary Protection) (Trinket) (1000 Bits)
You begin the battle with 8 temporary hp.

Speedy Horseshoes (Bracers of Speed) (Trinket) (1200 Gold)
You gain a +3 bonus to initiative.

My Friend's Items and his personal character flavor:
Spoiler:
Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[Oversized Sword] - 1500 Gold
Weapon
You may use the following combat talent.
[-4] "Chance on hit" [Not Compensating For Something] - Standard Attack
Deal 1d20+1d12 damage to target creature. If you roll a 19-20 on your d20, you may activate all three of your Special Move Features.

"Volt-Charged Tunic" [Hierophant Armor] - 3000 Gold
Armor
You have regeneration 5.

"Grounding Braclet" [Ring of Resilience] - 500 Gold
Trinket
You gain a +3 bonus to saving throws.

"Electric Horse-shoes" [Talisman of Haste] - 700 Gold
Trinket
Once per day, you may reroll your initiative with a +7 bonus.

While it might've just been the fact my friend had beastly talents and traits... (he's character totally did, even my friend agreed. Even without the items I lost two rounds until I edited my talents to be able to bring out a Fire Giant on my second turn, and even that fight I got lucky...) I found that "5 regen" extreamly OP with a one-on-one fight and felt like it made his character immortal. (His character had the trait: Die Another Day...) Maybe make the regen only work if you spend one pip or only works while bloodied and not while under 0 HP or something to do it.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:39 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:I ended up trying out a test One-On-One with a friend to test the weapons we both wanted to get for our level 4 (I'm not 100% sure but I think his was lvl 3 or his either way we overall had the same power)

My items Plus Personal Character Flavor.
Spoiler:
Super Clockwork HI-POWER LAZER! (Oversized Sword) (Weapon) (1500 Bits) (FEZ)
You may use the following combat talent.

[-4] Shoop-Da-Whoop! (Not Compensating For Something) - Standard Attack
Deal 1d20+1d12 damage to target creature. If you roll a 19-20 on your d20, you may activate all three of your Special Move Features.

Cloak of Shielding (Banded Armor) (Armor) (1500 Bits)
You have resist 2 against single-target attacks.

Necklace of Friendship (Amulet of Extraordinary Protection) (Trinket) (1000 Bits)
You begin the battle with 8 temporary hp.

Speedy Horseshoes (Bracers of Speed) (Trinket) (1200 Gold)
You gain a +3 bonus to initiative.

My Friend's Items and his personal character flavor:
Spoiler:
Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[Oversized Sword] - 1500 Gold
Weapon
You may use the following combat talent.
[-4] "Chance on hit" [Not Compensating For Something] - Standard Attack
Deal 1d20+1d12 damage to target creature. If you roll a 19-20 on your d20, you may activate all three of your Special Move Features.

"Volt-Charged Tunic" [Hierophant Armor] - 3000 Gold
Armor
You have regeneration 5.

"Grounding Braclet" [Ring of Resilience] - 500 Gold
Trinket
You gain a +3 bonus to saving throws.

"Electric Horse-shoes" [Talisman of Haste] - 700 Gold
Trinket
Once per day, you may reroll your initiative with a +7 bonus.

While it might've just been the fact my friend had beastly talents and traits... (he's character totally did, even my friend agreed. Even without the items I lost two rounds until I edited my talents to be able to bring out a Fire Giant on my second turn, and even that fight I got lucky...) I found that "5 regen" extreamly OP with a one-on-one fight and felt like it made his character immortal. (His character had the trait: Die Another Day...) Maybe make the regen only work if you spend one pip or only works while bloodied and not while under 0 HP or something to do it.


The system really isn't designed for one-on-one battles. Those always come down to who can one-shot the other player faster. Teamwork and discipline in the face of greater foes is what builds the system. The defensive powers of the system are far stronger than the offensive powers, for these reasons. That said, I'm sure the balance of many the items can be adjusted. Made them so fast. And thanks for testing it out even so. =)
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:41 pm

Oh I agree normally the system works at it's best when you got allies with you... But sometimes for one reason or another you might end up fighting by yourself one-on-one. Also those are easier to make on the fly between sessions. And still love that Oversized Sword...
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:09 pm

Also, just realized... Something that could use some clearing up... Does having a weapon make the talent that comes with it be free to use in combat?
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  LoganAura on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:19 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Also, just realized... Something that could use some clearing up... Does having a weapon make the talent that comes with it be free to use in combat?

It needs to be equipped, but any Combat Talent from Items is brought into every combat IF the item is equipped.

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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:23 pm

LoganAura wrote:
Xel Unknown wrote:Also, just realized... Something that could use some clearing up... Does having a weapon make the talent that comes with it be free to use in combat?

It needs to be equipped, but any Combat Talent from Items is brought into every combat IF the item is equipped.
Ah, so it is a free move as long as your using the weapon... That was how I thought it worked.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:27 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Also, just realized... Something that could use some clearing up... Does having a weapon make the talent that comes with it be free to use in combat?

Excluding any restricts or built in PiP cost, yes.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:44 pm

Next comment... The more I look at these items... They need more pony. They more feel like bland D&D items that your giving us to put better names on and not stuff that our lovely little colored equines would use.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:46 pm

And what would they use?
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  LoganAura on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:49 pm

That's where the flavor changing comes in. The names are, like the combat talents, just guidelines.

Here's Scales's item list:

Weapon Slot: Sneaky Bastard Sword (White Flame Breath) - 1000 Gold You may use the following combat talent.

[0] Sneaky Bastard - Minor Action [2/Battle]
Until the end of your turn, target creature suffers vulnerability 2 against your attacks.

Armor Slot: Full Plate (White Robe)- 2500 gold You have resist 2 and suffer a -1 penalty to initiative.

Trinket 1:Bracers of Speed (White-gold Anklet)- 1200 Gold +3 bonus to initiative

Trinket 2 Amulet of Extraordinary Protection (White Dragon Scale Amulet) - 1000 Gold You begin the battle with 8 temp hp.

Trinket 3: Hawkeye (White Glasses) - 2000 gold You may use the following combat talent on your turn.

[0] Predator’s Sight - Minor Action
Choose a creature you can see. That creature becomes your Prey until the end of the battle or until you use this talent again. Once per round, you may gain +1d6 damage on an attack you make against that creature.


I changed the flavor to fit him.


Last edited by LoganAura on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Sorry Fury. I write Text Walls.)

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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:51 pm

Space them out. PLEASE space them out!
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:55 pm

But even the unflavored stuff shouldn't feel non-pony I'd argue. That's how I feel the normal combat talents work...
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  XandZero2 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:29 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Wow, yeah, I'm surprised to hear people are struggling with the combat system over skype pre-items. Items sure do add another layer of complexity, but without them it's one of the simpler roleplaying systems - certainly compared to the mainstream ones. Even 4e, often called too simple, is much more complicated. Even with the tabletop version, our playtests of it have gone very smoothly even when people trying it their first time hop in - and the table-top system is more than twice as complex as the skype one. I wonder, could you be more detailed about what's tripping your players up? If there's something we can make easier to understand, that'd be great.

Well I may have overstated the problem, but here's the issue as I see it -

In my experience with making my own characters and helping/watching others make their characters for pbps and Skype games of Pony Tales, what's struck me is the sheer number of combat options every player has at their fingertips (hooftips?) from the very start, as early as Lvl 1. Because of this, I find that it can get kind of overwhelming for a first time player if they don't have guidance when building their characters.

The combat system is very simple I agree, but I have seen simpler combat systems before (Dragon Age, for instance) - and since everyone can get anything from the start, it can be a little daunting at first to choose a good combat combination.

In other games you gradually work up to having tons of combat options, but in PT, you basically start with everything, and that's my point.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

Whatever the case, I feel the combat complexity issue could easily be addressed if some complete combat skill combinations (8 skills) were simply given in the Player's Handbook, with a breakdown explaining what was chosen in each case, and for what reasons. That would give completely new players some guidance from the start in picking and choosing their combat skills.

I personally would have loved something like that when I was making my first Zebra Rock-Star character.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:On the subject of gold amounts, that's completely up to DM discretion. However, the gold amounts there represent a significant ratio between the power level of your other abilities and the power level of your items - one we like. You also don't have to award gold, you can award items however you like to players. I prefer gold except in the rare case of unique or extremely powerful items though, as players love getting a chance to go shopping and the items they choose for themselves give them a lot more fun than ones the DM picks out for them most times (unless the DM is handing them items far more powerful than they should be able to afford) and it saves the DM time as well. You can easily run Pony Tales/Living Legends without an Item in sight. That said, items are handed out at level 1 because they provide powerful customization options to further differentiate your character and play them how you like. Otherwise, until you get 2-3 traits, your character can feel a little bland combat-wise. Items fill this hole.

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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:32 am

Whatever the case, I feel the combat complexity issue could easily be addressed if some complete combat skill combinations (8 skills) were simply given in the Player's Handbook, with a breakdown explaining what was chosen in each case, and for what reasons. That would give completely new players some guidance from the start in picking and choosing their combat skills.

I personally would have loved something like that when I was making my first Zebra Rock-Star character.

Great point. The class breakdowns are intended to make that easier (and definitely do) - as are the sample characters - but there's no reason we can't give some examples of combat builds and where to begin. Especially for the tabletop system which features a whopping 178 talents in the first draft alone.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:15 pm

A question about the ritual knife weapon. To reiterate, its ability is as follows:
[0] Bloody Ritual - Standard Utility [1/Battle]
Choose one of the following;
A) Pay 2 hp. If you do, you may immediately use one of your [-1] combat talents as a free action without paying its pip cost.
B) Pay 4 hp. If you do, you may immediately use one of your [-2] combat talents as a free action without paying its pip cost.
C) Pay 6 hp. If you do, you may immediately use one of your [-3] combat talents as a free action without paying its pip cost.
Does this allow you to use combat talents you didn't bring into that battle?
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:27 pm

Nope, when anything refers to your combat talents - it's only for things you brought with you... Unless otherwise specified. Cool
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:48 pm

Oh, right, followup question. If something has a [-X] cost, can it be used at one of Ritual Knife's activations, at that cost?
So basically if I use Ritual Knife and I've brought along Thunderstorm, can I pay 2/4/6 hp to launch 1/2/3 thunderbolts?
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:59 pm

sunbeam wrote:Oh, right, followup question. If something has a [-X] cost, can it be used at one of Ritual Knife's activations, at that cost?
So basically if I use Ritual Knife and I've brought along Thunderstorm, can I pay 2/4/6 hp to launch 1/2/3 thunderbolts?

As it's not specifically a [-1], [-2] or [-3] power - no. But if your DM wants to houserule that you can, it's up to him - that doesn't sound broken or anything.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Greywander on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:14 am

I'm looking at the list of items, and I'm starting to wonder if there's really any need to distinguish between weapon, armor, and trinkets, as they now stand. In Logan's Classical Disruption game, my character has his weapon (Staff of the Healer) reflavored to a Religious Icon, something that sounds more like a trinket. But my point is, there's not really anything definite I can see that separates weapons, armor, and trinkets. A lot of weapons provide additional combat talents, but then so do some armors and trinkets. Some weapons provide passive bonuses. Some weapons even have an explicitly defensive or utility function. The only reason I can see to keep the separate categories is to force certain items to be mutually exclusive (e.g. you can't equip five "weapons" to give yourself something like a dozen combat talents during battle), and even then, is there really a reason that they should be mutually exclusive? So the question is, why not just have five item slots that can accommodate any item?

I heard at one point that a Fallout: Equestria mod of Pony Tales was being worked on, and that someone had the bright idea to take a page from Guild Wars 2 and have weapons determine combat talents. So here's an alternate idea: have one weapon slot plus a number of accessory slots (that can be reflavored to armor or trinkets as the player sees fit). Weapons work differently from other items, because they partially decide your combat talents in battle. I'm thinking the player would bring 3 combat talents into battle, and their weapon would provide 2 combat talents, maintaining the current max of 5 total. This would provide more freedom to the player to choose which talents to bring into a fight, while the weapon would still define the core of their fighting style. I'm thinking each weapon should have one [+] talent and one [-] talent, and that at least one of those should deal damage. Otherwise, each weapon's talents could provide a number of other interesting effects, including passive effects for the weapon itself, and that the weapon talents would be slightly stronger than regular combat talents (e.g. Fireball combat talent vs. Wand of Fireball). Not sure what to do about unarmed characters. Maybe just allow them to bring five talents into battle, so as to maximize their flexibility, but those talents will be slightly weaker than the equivalent from a weapon?

Here's some examples for weapons under this suggested system. Keep in mind I'm going more for the idea concept than proper balance.

Broadsword
Start every battle with 3 temporary HP.

[+2] Defensive Stance - Standard Action
Deal 1d12 damage to the first enemy that attacks you before your next turn.

[-3] Sweeping Strike - Standard Action
Deal 2d8 damage to your target and the enemies adjacent to your target.

Jagged Knife
Gain a +2 to initiative.

[+3] Brutal Strike - Standard Action
Deal 1d8 damage to your target and your target takes 1 ongoing damage (save ends).

[-6] Assassinate - Standard Action
Deal 2d10 damage to your target. If your target is suffering from a (save ends) effect, do an extra 1d12 damage.

Wizard Staff
Once per battle, you can avoid damage from a multi-target attack.

[+5] Focus Energy - Standard Action
Any time until your next turn that you receive damage, flip a coin. If you lose the coin flip, lose a pip (up to five total).

[-1] Arcane Bolt - Standard Action
Deal 1d8 damage to your target. Flip a coin; if you win, the target also loses a pip.

Note how the talents of the Jagged Knife complement one another, whereas the Wizard Staff is more geared to providing a supply of pips for the other three talents you bring to the fight. Each weapon should form the core of the fighting style, while allowing you to expand upon that core with your other three talents. Of course, this would significantly change not only items, but also the flow of combat, so something like this shouldn't be implemented lightly, and would require a lot of balancing and tweaking to get working properly.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  SilentBelle on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:38 am

Well, I agree that we could totally have just 5 item slots. I mean why can't a player go around with a dagger and a wand? That's not too hard to imagine. Personally though, I prefer items that stay away from giving combat talents.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  AProcrastinatingWriter on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:46 pm

Yes, but how odes one carry both the wand and the sword into battle?

And before you say "they pick one up in each of their hands because they're a Minotaur" lemme say good thinking, but race isn't supposed to have any impact on what you can do in combat. And a tad more seriously, I think that being unable to carry both wand and sword into battle is a matter of gameplay balance, not realism.

That being said, there's also the question of how one is supposed to concentrate on using both the wand and the sword as proper combat tools. You'd need practice if you wanted such a thing to be possible. Thus, I'd think a combat trait that gives you access to a second weapon slot might be in order?

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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:54 pm

Greywander wrote:I'm looking at the list of items, and I'm starting to wonder if there's really any need to distinguish between weapon, armor, and trinkets, as they now stand.

There's just one reason for that. By keeping a balance between weapon, armor and trinket - there tends to be (not always) a relative balance between defensive items, offensive items and utility items. Some armor can help your offense and some weapons can do things besides hurt enemies - but in general there tends to be a quasi-balance which makes things a little better rounded than otherwise.

That's our only reason and we might well just abolish it in our redo of items that's coming up. We liked the results of the items playtest a lot and it gave us a lot of information, with which we're going to make a ton of changes. The biggest one is going to be getting rid of *most* 0 pip effects on items, or limiting their uses. We're going to limit them with pip costs and things, but also make them stronger to compensate for the increased cost. We're also planning on adding a new type of action, minor actions, which will help regulate item powers and allow us to make cool effects we otherwise couldn't.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 pm

Personally I love the Weapon, Armor, Trinket slot thingie... That totally has gotta stay in personal opinion. And can't wait to see some utility items... Also plan to suggest how to mix the two, combine items, enchantments and stuff.
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Re: Items - The Playtest Document!

Post  LoganAura on Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:33 pm

Oh, that's something that needs to be worked out. Non-combat items and the bonuses they give Smile
I've actually got some of those in mind for my games Very Happy

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