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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:20 pm

The wording is "Use one of your powers at random without paying the pip cost." not, "Use one of your powers that you took into combat at random without paying the pip cost." If it was it would become alternately useless or abusive.

I do have a somewhat related question to ask though. You're going to get rid of It's Over! at some point right? Because that thing isn't balanced for use in any situation ever. Even within the 5 turns it had been intended to take to use.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:43 pm

Via Logan: "[3:38:00 PM] Dan Felder: no, it's only the active 5
[3:38:15 PM] Dan Felder: the others cease to exist for the purposes of such abilities if they're not included in battle"

But this leads to abusive stupidity and is boring. Also it doesn't match the wording at all. It literally means the only way to make a Derpy's Lightning build that is build around that nat 12's is to be a munchkin or be shooting yourself in the foot. I'd ask you, Stairc, to reconsider your position.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:45 pm

1) Logan's correct. Whenever an ability lets you use a combat talent, it is always referring to be the ones you took into battle unless it specifically says otherwise. I've gotten a few questions on this, so I've posted an edit to the special to make things clearer. And actually Ramsus, I'd judge taking 3 combat talents you never plan to use for the hope of triggering a d12 spam is a lot more munchkinny and more repetitive (because of the many combat talents you don't bring with you each battle) than simply getting one of the ones you did bring in at random.

2) No one's broken It's Over and some people love the combat talent. Therefore, no way are we cutting it yet. Cool
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:55 pm

But your ruling there forces that behavior of anyone who wants to take Deryp's Lightning and use the d12 crit.

Edit: Even if it was on accident, the way it was written before was better in all ways.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:04 pm

Nope Ramsus, it doesn't. Because this way it's just a nice bonus to using one of your combat powers if you happen to activate a d12, and it's more likely you'll trigger one of the + pip powers you brought in thna otherwise. It's fairer this way, more balanced this way and more conducive to spicy fun. Also, it provides extra strategic elements to choosing your starting 5 combat talents.

If you want to base your build around just the d12, you're going to have to work at it and it probably will take serious attempts to munchkin, which this rule prevents from being overpowered (at least at the present, I'm sure we'll release a combat talent that screws things up eventually and will have to change that combat talent; we're already playtesting one in Living Legends that might be broken with it. Of course, the rules change you're suggesting would just make it even more broken if this is the case). If you want to just enjoy the special and trigger a free move now and then, you'll be fine.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:09 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Actually, it simply prevents people from building un-fun munchkin builds around that special in the first place - as dedicating multiple combat talent slots to the d12 that you never intend to actually take int combat is significant munchkining. Occasionally getting a cool free power from what you already brought in is just good fun. But we can discuss this in another thread.

I assume this is the other thread you meant?

Well, in reply. It just encourages those who build for using the d12 crit to do things like: Perfect Focus, Punishing Blow, Meditate, Judo Throw, It's Over! and then three talents they never use in any way ever. So that's a 2/5 chance to get the insane moves, 2/4 if the GM isn't being a jerk and telling you that when you roll Punishing Blow it does nothing.

This is clearly worse than: Perfect Focus, Punishing Blow, Slashback, Meditate, -insert whatever you like- as their 5 moves and their three non-picked being It's Over!, Judo Throw, and Conjure Fire Giant (or Royal Command or whatever). And having a 3/8 chance to (or 3/5 if your GM lets you re-roll for Punishing Blow and Slashback) do those last three.

This second way means you ever have moves that aren't "more d12's" or "giant things of doom" being used. The first way just means you have to be a munchkin if you want the d12 crit to mean anything.

Edit: And I'll point out what this started over.

I have a character, Brash Landing who has this combat built:

Perfect Focus, Meditate, Punishing Blow, Slashback, Conjure Warden (those first 5 were his in combat picks), Conjure Fire Giant, Royal Command, Wild Abandon.

That's a lot more interesting that what he'll become with this rules change which is: Perfect Focus, Meditate, Punishing Blow, Conjure Fire Giant, Royal Command and the other three never see the light of day ever.


Last edited by Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:11 pm

Why does everyone here just love to just ignore Ramsus and think they've got the only right viewpoint on things?

He builds a character based off a good idea for the D12 as it was, he might not have brought that up, but yeah he's built to only have d12s be rolled for his character, which would be intresting to have it run the way he's asked for. But then boom he finds that he's totally wrong so we gotta just let him be unhappy despite all he has tried to do for this game system? How doesn't he got a good point here? How? Please somebody logically explain that to me...

I mean the more I keep to looking at it. It would be cool to have it work the way Ramsus thought it was meant too. Please just explain, other then the "It's Over" claim, that his Derpy's Lightning viewpoint is a bad idea, please explain what flaws in his logic he has. Cause right now he has only been countlessly pointing out your logical flaws yet you ignore them as is normal with people talking with Ramsus it seems.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:12 pm

My edit was ninja'd, lol.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:32 pm

It's quite amazing that Ramsus can even have an idea of his spawn an entire new expansion and there are still people that think his ideas are ignored.

Alright, mathematically...

1) Yes, Punishing Blow would not actually activate. It makes no sense in the rules and it would be even easier to break the power then - for the reasons you mention. Furthermore, the chance of whiffing on a triggered power helps balance out the chance of scoring a jackpot on a fire giant. It also creates extra build challenges to those that want to try to break these free combat talent uses.

2) Let's say the chances are 4/5, the most terrifyingly min/maxy thing of all, that when they trigger a d12 special (which is hard by the way, especially if you're just using a single move to do it, as it would need to be a repeatable move, like a [+] combat talent) they get some uber -7 or more ability. That's right, let's imagine the worst case scenario, 4 out of 5 combat talents are just there for the d12. Is this crazy? Little bit, yeah - but it's not broken yet. After all, the penalties from having to effectively take multiple, "blank" talents compared to a balanced and versatile build are huge. So there's no huge incentive to munchkinize this.

3) Let's examine your argument that expanding the roulette to any of your combat talents makes it less ridiculous in the chances of triggering an ultimate if you're trying to munchkin. In reality, you now have 3 more blank slots you don't even need to bring into combat with you to benefit off of (much lower opportunity cost). Munchkins love lower opportunity costs. So now with those 3 filling in as huge -7 or greater abilities - you don't have a 4/5 chance of rolling a special move. You now have a 7/8 chance of rolling a special move. That's greater than a 4/5, so claiming that your suggestion makes things less powerful for a munchkin is just plain wrong.

4) For casual builds, the balance is also off. Dedicating your 3 combat slots that you never bring into battle just to big nuketastic combat talents is a smaller cost than having to bring them into battle with you if you want to try and break the special. The system encourages mixing up builds by bringing lots of different things into battle. Under the current system, you can play a crazy crit-fisher build with d12 one battle, then swap out the unused ultimates for more reasonable and versatile talents the next battle. People that want to trigger like crazy get more control over which talents are triggered by choosing which go into battle and can effortlessly swap to a more versatile playstyle at whim. This makes the battles feel fresh and different, which is good for the casual player, and also provides extra control (and limitations to prevent things from being broken) for the min-maxers.


I'm happy to discuss design decisions folks, but I'm starting to get a little tired of the complaint that Ramsus isn't listened to. Of course you're listened to Ramsus. A whole expansion was built out of one of your ideas.

I get that your build isn't workable with the actual rules and that's a shame. I've also had to deal with complaints from people that thought they brought all 8 combat talents into every battle too and now were worrying that their builds were worthless under the actual rules. It's a shame, and that's what clarifications are for. I've got a hunch you'll come up with another cool build you enjoy.


Last edited by Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:36 pm

I'm sorry for my comment, but it just, this whole chat, was just going nowhere and from what I understood, it seemed like Ramsus' points were being totally ignored. So my own anger just was vented in what I felt was going on for my friend.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:37 pm

No problem. Apology accepted. =)
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:48 pm

You know, my biggest issue isn't really which side is more powerfully abusive or not. (Because clearly, either way it's possible to abuse stuff.) The big issue for me is that the changed version is more boring. It means if you want an effective d12 crit build, you basically light three of your 8 moves on fire because you never use them. You just do the same 5 moves over and over, and in fact, two of them you rarely actually pay for. It's just dull.

I didn't really get that 4/5 or 7/8 stuff since I don't see how you could make a build that triggered nat12's even semi-regularly with only one move.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:13 pm

Ramsus wrote:You know, my biggest issue isn't really which side is more powerfully abusive or not. (Because clearly, either way it's possible to abuse stuff.) The big issue for me is that the changed version is more boring. It means if you want an effective d12 crit build, you basically light three of your 8 moves on fire because you never use them. You just do the same 5 moves over and over, and in fact, two of them you rarely actually pay for. It's just dull.

Sadly, we do actually have to think about balance in game design. As the version you're talking about would make the d12 build too powerful in comparison to the other specials, its not workable. Furthermore, the incentive to actually swap combat talents in and out so you can abandon the critfisher build one moment then bring everything in for the next combat (and have more control over which abilities you want to be able to trigger) is something that I would say adds more versatility, not less. Certainly when it's compared to having your bench combat talents be chosen specifically for high pip moves that you never have to bring into combat with you.

With balance issues for one way, plus it not being clear which is actually the more interesting way when it comes to building, the current method still has way too much going for it.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:41 pm

*shrug* If you say so. I'm currently trying to re-work my character's combat build according to the new rules and I haven't come up with anything that isn't horribly abusive or stunningly boring.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:47 pm

Technically they're the old rules Ramsus. The rules you refer to were but a dream. Wink

But if you've broken the system, please explain how. =)
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  elfowlgirl on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:10 pm

I think everyone's been wondering this, but is Never Say Die supposed to have Die Another Day as a prerequisite?

Their text suggests so...
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:12 pm

Or should the lesser one get a buff to make it on the level?
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  LoganAura on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:15 pm

They're supposed to work together, really, without needing prerequisites.
And both of them are good for different reasons. one lets you survive longer, and the other lets you fight longer ((IIRC))

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:18 pm

elfowlgirl wrote:I think everyone's been wondering this, but is Never Say Die supposed to have Die Another Day as a prerequisite?

Their text suggests so...

Nope, they both work in different ways. One lets you stay unconscious below 0, another lets it take more damage to actually knock you comatose or kill you than usual.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:19 pm

Really? How, last I read it, only one of them seemed good... The other just was a weaker version...
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  elfowlgirl on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:21 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
elfowlgirl wrote:I think everyone's been wondering this, but is Never Say Die supposed to have Die Another Day as a prerequisite?

Their text suggests so...

Nope, they both work in different ways. One lets you stay unconscious below 0, another lets it take more damage to actually knock you comatose or kill you than usual.

Even though it says for Never Say Die, "You are not knocked comatose until you reach negative 20 hp (rather than negative 15)", and negative 15 isn't the case unless you take Die Another Day?
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:25 pm

Might want to read it again. Wink

One affects when you fall unconscious. The other affects when you fall comatose or die.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:30 pm

Then I'd suggest helping make it that clear... Cause with the wording it's got right now, it seems to not mean what you think you've had it mean...
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:32 pm

I've gone over them twice just now. I can't see a problem with the current wording if every word of the traits are read. What would you suggest?
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:40 pm

Add a line saying that you are still KOed at 0 with Never Say Die... OR just add a note that knocked comatose isn't the same as being KOed. That's where the conufstion lies.
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