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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:30 pm

Ramsus wrote:Fury, both thematthew and I have commented on that before. We thought it was pretty broken to be honest. And..... yup. That's about where it went.

I don't care. I just wanna know what happen for that to happen, O.O
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:32 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Thinking about it, I'm surprised only one person has commented on them...

My apologies for bothering to respond to you. I'll make sure to remember to ignore you in the future.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Paper Shadow on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:34 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Ramsus wrote:Fury, both thematthew and I have commented on that before. We thought it was pretty broken to be honest. And..... yup. That's about where it went.

I don't care. I just wanna know what happen for that to happen, O.O
Well, do you remember when King of Fools was nerfed? It had something to do with that...

Edit: Found it...

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:@Xel - It's been answered.

Due to my recent playing in the system, you might have heard that my character used his first action of the encounter to trigger a combo-chain that dealt effectively infinite damage to effectively infinite targets, heal for effectively infinite life, drop massive resistance onto everyone and gain effectively infinite pips. I say effectively infinite because the combo just kept snowballing larger and larger for 15 minutes and I had racked up activation of 5 special-moves I'd yet to calculate by the time we decided to simply assume we'd destroyed everything that could be destroyed. There was no sign of the combo stopping anytime soon.

My character was level 6 at the time and this combo required the use of no items.


Reasoning Behind Changes:
For those wondering, the combo was King of Fools + Crushing Blow + the Be Prepared Special (props to Azureink for suggesting Be Prepared, which was a stronger version than I was planning on using). Both the I Meant to Do That trait and combat talent gave me all those pips, though they weren't used for anything, and Fool me Twice would have let me sustain the combo from round to round if I ever fizzled out on one round. However, a friend's use of Inspiring Tune meant that I didn't need to wait till my second or third turn to get the rerolling action I needed.

King of Fools doubles your crit chances and being able to reroll doubles them again. Quadrupled crit chances plus Crushing Blow (which deals 1d12 damage whenever you crit, and thus has a significant chance of triggering another crit on its own) meant that damage was exploding everywhere. Be Prepared meant that every Crit gave me a chance to roll more dice and thus crit more. The 12 crit was absurdly broken here.


Naturally, this is a rather large break in the system... So nerfs have to come immediately. Here is what we're doing at the moment, which we think will maintain the more-fair versions of this build without enabling my god-slaying version. Of course, if we nerf too lightly (possible) another nerf might be coming. Normally we'd like to take the time to make sure we nerf correctly the first time, but in this case it's a huge break in the system and needs to be mended quickly.

Nehiel and I are going has proposed the following change. This still maintains the honest versions of the build, but cuts down on the insanity. The King of Fools change actually makes it better for many non-ridiculous builds, because there's no prerequisite anymore and they probably weren't going to crit more than once a turn anyways.

We're also changing Be Prepared, because a reroll effect with the 12 special gives you a very high chance of triggering another crit off the 4d8. With 3d8 it should be more reasonable, and the 12 special of Be Prepared was insane already.

So, without further ado, here's the changes.

King Of Fools
Once per turn, whenever you roll a 1 on a d8, d10 or d12; you may activate one of your special moves at random.

Be Prepared
8: Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.

10: Target creature gains 2d12 hp.

12: Target creature gains Resist 3d8 until the end of your next turn. In addition, until the end of the encounter you and up to six allies may use any combat talent that you possess - even if you did not select it for this battle.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  LoganAura on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:38 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Ramsus wrote:Fury, both thematthew and I have commented on that before. We thought it was pretty broken to be honest. And..... yup. That's about where it went.

I don't care. I just wanna know what happen for that to happen, O.O

King of Fools build, Crit Fisher, Be Prepared, and lots and lots of dice. Yeah.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:39 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Absolutely. That's part of how I did effectively 300+ damage, gained 33 pips, healed people for 112 hp, slapped everyone with about 18 resistance and more all on my first turn of the battle. Actually, more would have happened, a lot more, but after everything was dead there didn't seem much point in continuing to roll.

... HOW.

I used the idea of crit fishing with Be Prepared rather than Derpy's Lightning and used it with King of Fools (the old version after this combo could trigger any number of times each turn) along with a power that let me roll all my dice twice. Rolling twice and critting on both 1s and the max number meant that I had about a 2/6 chance of critting on crushing blow's own d12 to repeat the cycle and the be prepared specials all involve rolling more dice - which means I crit more often anyway. The old Be Prepared 12 rolled 4d8 too... Which generated about 2 more crits each time it was triggered due to this build.

Twas very silly and led to a lot of nerfing.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Looks like Paper got a double ninja XD

Ramsus wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:Thinking about it, I'm surprised only one person has commented on them...

My apologies for bothering to respond to you. I'll make sure to remember to ignore you in the future.

Uh... you haven't responded to my Combat Talent upgrades.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:05 pm

I don't see the relevance. I responded to something you said here and you rudely brushed me off. What does that have to do with me not having checked out some random stuff you designed? I don't really check over everything nor do I recall you asking me to. It just seems like you're randomly plugging your stuff here, which is kinda rude as well as that's not what this thread is for.

But, if you want a quick response to that I'd say that it over-complicates the system, which runs counter to the point of the system in the first place since it was designed to be simple. Additionally, I don't feel that in doing so it adds anything the system was really lacking. Though I would have to go over it in more detail to be sure. But, I probably won't bother.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:39 pm

First, your response was completely and utterly irrelevant. I asked how such a move was possible, and you simply commented on the brokenness of the combo that allowed it to happen without actually saying what it was.

Secondly, if you had actually read the document at ALL. You would of seen that it was an OPTIONAL module. Meaning that the simplicity of the current system remains, and those that want a more complex/unique experience can use a module such as what I suggested.

Third, there is absolutely no way to upgrade talents directly. So yeah, adds something the system doesn't have.


Last edited by Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:45 pm

Fourth, how about we all chill out a bit? jocolor

Reading over the comments, I think you both might have misinterpreted the others poster's response slightly. I think Ramsus might have misinterpreted Fury's "I don't care" as meaning he doesn't care about the comment - but I believe Fury meant that he doesn't mind that it's been fixed or was broken, he just wanted to know how it happened in the first place. And I think Fury might have misinterpreted Ramsus' response when he said it doesn't add anything. I think Ramsus was making a more general statement about how he doesn't believe that being able to upgrade traits in that way actually adds much meaningful depth to the customization of your character that could not be achieved with more pre-requisite traits (the way that Duelist can be upgraded).

The net's famous for miscommunications, I think that's what happened here. Either way, let's all relax and enjoy the day.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:48 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The net's famous for miscommunications, I think that's what happened here. Either way, let's all relax and enjoy the day.

Talking about miscommunications, you missed the word after Combat. I was talking about Talents. Not Traits.

Just thought I'll point that out.

Through admittedly, I haven't managed to get upgrades for every single talent yet... there are 200 of them after all.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:49 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Third, there is absolutely no way to upgrade traits directly. So yeah, adds something the system doesn't have.

I was referring to this. Cool
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:52 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Third, there is absolutely no way to upgrade traits directly. So yeah, adds something the system doesn't have.

I was referring to this. Cool

... Why do we have no derp face Emoticion?
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:55 pm

It's the thought that counts. santa
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:02 pm

I really don't see this as miscommunication. Just Fury acting like he normally does, being rude to anyone who says anything at all counter to his viewpoint.

I don't know how he thinks I don't realize an unofficial idea would be optional. Though you clearly do have a point Dan that I was saying it didn't seem to add anything of value to the system. We don't need a way to upgrade combat talents directly, nor do I think such a thing is wise to even consider doing. The ways to accidentally break the balance are nigh infinite and the ways to avoid doing so are so much work and offer so little reward that it's just not something I see as worth doing.

I think it's a little absurd for you to claim someone saying "I don't care" means anything but them saying that they don't care. He was dismissive in an overly rude way, trying to put words in his mouth that clearly don't fit his personality is basically just you telling me to ignore people being rude to me because apparently I have no right to defend myself in your opinion and anyone who attacks me apparently just gets a light slap on the wrist at worst. Which is why I hate the rules setup. You've fallen into one of the issues I warned about in the first place. You have this setup where people can be rude just slightly under the radar of punishment (which seems to wildly vary depending on who's speaking, especially if it's a member of the staff) but, at the same time so provocative that the person they're being rude to has no way of fully responding without themselves getting punished.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:05 pm

I just believe that Fury meant, "I don't care that it's been fixed and isn't legal anymore" - not, "I don't care about what you have to say". That's why I think it was misinterpreted as rude and was not actually meant to be rude - because it was meant to be a statement about the rules and not a person's contributions.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:13 pm

I wasn't being rude. I was simply stating that your post wasn't a relevant reply in what I was seeking to learn.

In fact, your bold statements like 'We don't need a way to upgrade combat talents' can come across as rather condescending and arrogant. As if your opinions are more valid than other people, or the only correct opinions.

Actually... I think that's the main problem I have with you Ramus. You constantly come across as either condescending or arrogant and it really gets on my nerves...


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