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Breaking the Unbreakable

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Nehiel Mori
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Post  thematthew Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:23 pm

Actually, Form of the Reaper has no combo with All or Nothing:

[-10] Form of the Reaper - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - You would be reduced to 0 hp or less.

Immediate Interrupts and Reactions – This is a special kind of talent that doesn’t activate until a specific trigger activates it, a little like a trap. When the triggering action activates the interrupt, you get to interrupt the action that triggered it and apply the talent’s effects before the triggering action resolves. For example, if the triggering action is a friend taking damage and the interrupt allows you to give that friend 5 health – the player gets the 5 health before he takes damage from the attack. If the talent is a reaction, the player will take the damage and only gain the health after. This all sounds pretty complicated, but it’s actually simple. Immediate actions wait for something specific to happen. When they do, they do their effect – before the trigger (if it’s an interrupt) or after the trigger (if it’s a reaction). You may only use one Immediate action per trigger. That is, if you have two different Immediate action options, each of which trigger when you are damaged by an enemy, you’ll have to decide which you want to use for that trigger. You can choose the other one the next time the mean enemy hurts you.

Bolding added to highlight. Any intended combo is destroyed because you gain 2d12 hp, and then are set to -15 hp.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:31 pm

Good point!

Hmm... Should we rephrase the Form of the Reaper talent so they do combine or should we just keep it as-is to prevent the insanely cool combo.

Decisions, decisions...
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Post  thematthew Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:36 pm

Well, I thought the intent of Form of the Reaper was to not die, and then fuck them up, so it really should read:

[-10] Form of the Reaper - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - You would be reduced to 0 hp or less.
Effect - You may use Death’s Scythe immediately without spending the pip cost, even if you do not know that talent. Instead of reducing your hp set them to 2d12.

Or some such like that. That way you actually survive the ridiculous super hit that would have knocked you down to something like -1 billion hp, like the power seems to be supposed to do.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:52 pm

Well, I do worry then that it makes you absolutely unkillable with the right build - but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Besides, a simple Daze or Stun will nix it.

So something like this, though the phrasing is indeed clunky.

[-10] Form of the Reaper - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - You would be reduced to 0 hp or less.
Effect - You may use Death’s Scythe immediately without spending the pip cost, even if you do not know that talent. Instead of reducing your hp to 0 or less, roll 2d12. The result becomes your new hp total.

The really nice thing would be if we could phrase this as a reaction, as that would be easiest - but the pips need to be spent before you fall unconscious and lose them. This might be another way to do it.


[-10] Form of the Reaper - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - You would be reduced to 0 hp or less.
Effect - You may use Death’s Scythe immediately without spending the pip cost, even if you do not know that talent. After you are reduced to 0hp or less, you immediately gain 2d12 hp.

But that is still clunky. The 2d12 is a problem, as it doesn't fit into the phrasing well. If it was a solid number it could be...


[-10] Form of the Reaper - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - You would be reduced to 0 hp or less.
Effect - Your hp total becomes 13 instead. In addition, you may use Death’s Scythe immediately without spending the pip cost, even if you do not know that talent.


Saying, "Your hp total becomes 2d12 instead" is odd and likewise clunky. So far though, I like the last of the three the best. And 13 is very flavorful, plus has no chance to trigger specials - which is actually a good thing (as the power is already bordering on too strong).
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Post  Paper Shadow Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:55 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Paper Shadow wrote:Either make Form of the Reaper not work on self-damage, or make Daredevil Rush give its pips at the start of the next turn, so players can't sacrifice themselves for instant FotR...
All interesting ideas, though it does ruin some of the fun of comboing Form of the Reaper with things like All or Nothing. Having Daredevil’s Rush add pips at the start of the next turn seems like a patch though, it’s still giving an ungodly amount of pips.
For FotR, if the insta-sacrifice isn't the problem, but the pip amount is, make FotR reset your pip count to zero when used. For DDR, if you feel it's giving too much pips, there are the ideas posted earlier about nerfing it like lower the amount of pips you can gain or increasing the self damage, or you could make it apply Vulnerability X, X being the pip gain. It really depends on what sort of playstyle you want Daredevil's Rush to be used in. Since I'm new here, I don't know what type of player Daredevil's Rush is designed for. Is it for glass cannons or bloodied berserkers? The way I see it, you have to go deep for Daredevil's Rush, because unless you want to die early, there are other, safer options. No one is going to +2 DDR and even risk not getting any pips at all if they can just +3 Draw Blood, and you are rewarded for paying for more rolls by increasing the likelihood of only taking half the damage. If you feel that DDR is giving too much pips, then I believe that a simple nerf or number tweak won't suffice, and it may need to be reworked into something a bit less crazy...

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Paper Shadow wrote:That's a common theme of my ideas. They're smart, if I may stroke my own ego, but I've seen Spike Pits smoother than most of them. But hopefully my idea gets through; instead of having actual double damage, have a way to replicate damage at the cost of extra pips. Let me have another crack...

[-X] Germinate Attack - Free Action
Trigger - You attack an enemy.
You deal double damage with the attack. X is the cost of the attack. If you pay less than 2 pips, you deal not deal double damage.

This is a nice idea, but it’s still got some issues. Doesn’t it just give you a free standard action as long as you use it on a [-3] or more talent? That’s pretty ridiculous.
Technically, a [-2], but you are correct in how stupid it is. You could remove the minimal requirement of [-2] and making it a 1/Battle item instead, but that means there won't be a double damage combat talent. Alternatively you could make it daze or stun the user, costing them a turn for an immediate standard action, but personally I'm not a big fan of things which self-harms the player. Let me sleep on it and post more ideas tomorrow. One of them will hit the bullseye, and someone else will refine it for the triple twenty...
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Post  thematthew Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:57 pm

I can agree with #3, and if the unkillability issue does become a reality you can just limit it to so many uses per battle.

Related note, why is the Necro Scythe based around ongoing damage with no ability to deal it?

Edit: Though now I wonder why my combo build thread became a OMG DDR IS TEH BROKENZZZZ thread, it just seems silly.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:02 pm

thematthew wrote:I can agree with #3, and if the unkillability issue does become a reality you can just limit it to so many uses per battle.

Related note, why is the Necro Scythe based around ongoing damage with no ability to deal it?

I like number 3 too. And as for ongoing damage, it does have a way to deal it. Its [+1] power, Grievous Wound.

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Post  thematthew Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:04 pm

I read that 5 times. I somehow missed the word ongoing every time...
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:24 pm

It happens. Cool

Now, let's take a look at this for Daredevil's Rush.

[+X] Daredevil's Rush - Standard Action
You suffer Xd8 damage. X cannot be greater than 5.

And another version...

[+X] Daredevil's Rush - Standard Action
You suffer Xd8 damage and are dazed (save ends). X cannot be greater than 6.

The second version makes life harder for Gather Energy combos that allow you to use Daredevil's Rush and immediately spend the pips without any time to be attacked inbetween. You have a slightly better than 50% chance to save at the end of your turn against Dazed, so people not trying to use the Gather Energy combo will be inconvenienced less. It also makes it harder for you to defend yourself with your own interrupts/reactions.

Note, I'm not saying either is balanced quite yet - just demonstrating different options that still require tweaking.
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Post  thematthew Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:08 am

If you went with #2 I would keep the 10 point max at first. Dazing can be really, really bad for you.
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Post  Ramsus Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:13 am

I would support #2, with the cap still at 10, over #1 as #1 seems like mostly what would happen is people just wouldn't take it.
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Post  Xel Unknown Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:19 am

I agreee that adding the dazed effect would work to fix the talent. Or it's worth testing out.
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Post  SilentBelle Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:53 am

What about setting it to a fixed value? Something like [+5] and having it do 5d8 damage? I mean, the only other move that gives that many pips causes you to be defeated (with a few exceptions) at the end of next turn.

I think, if it's a matter of it being too versatile, then that would fix it. Though that would kind of ruin half the reason why people choose the talent. But it's worth a thought anyway.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:30 am

SilentBelle wrote:What about setting it to a fixed value? Something like [+5] and having it do 5d8 damage? I mean, the only other move that gives that many pips causes you to be defeated (with a few exceptions) at the end of next turn.

I think, if it's a matter of it being too versatile, then that would fix it. Though that would kind of ruin half the reason why people choose the talent. But it's worth a thought anyway.

These are great points - but it's not really a matter of being too Versatile - it's that the ceiling is too high. I like the +X feel of the power, so capping it at a ceiling seems reasonable. The question is where to cap it.

The point you raise about the [+5] All or Nothing having a truly ridiculous drawback is worth emphasizing. That power people are also having fun building with and is a potent option. Comparing a power that merely dazes you at +10... I'd say that would be too minor a fix.

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Post  Ramsus Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:05 am

Funny, then you need to compare All or Nothing to anything else that gives you 4 PiPs. Where the drawback of All or Nothing is way over the usual cost for that many pips. That doesn't seem like a good place to try to be balancing things to.

If you reduce Daredevil's Rush to max +5, people just aren't going to be taking it (as is, not many non-intentionally game breaking builds involve it, those that do, you're just making impossible if you set the cap at +5). The issue with Daredevil's Rush is with it's speed of pip gain in combination with other things. The dazing was a good fix for that. Keeping in mind that Daredevil's Rush is already dealing 10d8 (or probably 5d8 most of the time) damage to the user, who then needs a good deal of ally support to not get KOed next time he's hit.

All or Nothing, as far as I can see, mostly operates off of combinations with items (and imo really isn't worth the pips to be doing unless you're doing something amazingly cheesestastic which negates most or all of the drawback anyway).

Either way you're going to have people trying to negate the drawbacks as much as possible. Daredevil's Rush however is more likely to involved the party working as a team and allows for non-game breaking options of how to do that. All or Nothing seems to be entirely based off of munchkinning to have any useful effect.

So, if you reduce Daredevil's Rush to anything lower than a cap of 8, those who want game breaking stuff are going to just go find it somewhere else while those who weren't breaking the game balance are forced to abandon their combat builds and make new ones from scratch as what they're left with is unsalvageable. Then, for those making new characters, you will just see people taking Daredevil's Rush a lot less as the drawback is no longer worth the payoff when you can get nearly that same payoff without such a large drawback, and to boot drawbacks that don't involve the rest of the party having to cooperate to make it work.

Edit: Additionally, max of +8 decreases the the payoff somewhat, while actually making the drawback larger (as the chance of halving your damage is lowered). In combination with it Dazing you, I think that should be all the drawback it needs. That's enough damage to still need the party to work together and enough pip gain to still be worth it for the party to bother doing so.

Btw, not entirely why you included All or Nothing aside from wanting to give munchkins something to screw around with. I can't see how it's of any use to anyone else.
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Post  SilentBelle Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:24 am

See, I think it's a problem to have a talent that can grant double the pips of any other moves. Shouldn't a move get far more drastically detrimental for each pip it grants? If a +3 pip move does slightly more than nothing, a +4 move stuns you (save ends) after your next move, and a +5 pip move will cause you to fall unconscious at the end of your next turn. It goes to follow that a +8 move or more would cause something very drastic to happen. And Daredevil's Rush seems to be free of any truly drastic consequences currently. At least that's how I see it at the moment.

I'm basically asking this: "Should a single character be able to make that many pips in a single move?"
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Post  Ramsus Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:40 am

Well, I'd argue with you that most +3 pip moves do a lot more than barely nothing. As for the drastic consequences, All or Nothing is not a good baseline for what a +5 pip move should do. The consequence goes from Stunned (save ends) to -15 HP and nothing in-between (btw, as written it causes you to become comatose instantly, not at the end or start of a turn). The consequence for Daredevil's Rush scales with the amount of pips it grants, 1d8 damage to yourself. It's one of the only sources of self-damage and with Dazed (which also gives vulnerability 2) that's actually quite a lot of drawback. Additionally, it also of itself does nothing at all to your opponents or to any other party members (though it does give you a decent shot of getting a d8 crit, then again Critfisher does that without any drawback at all). The consequence for +8 pips is having to have a party that works together and will expend some of their turns making sure you don't fall over and die before you can use those pips. This generally involves things that cost them pips. So it doesn't require a more extreme drawback because it's a lot more about shifting around who has pips in a risk/reward style setup than it is about you gaining an unfair amount of pips.
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Post  Xel Unknown Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:00 am

WE also got a +4 that gives you just 4 vulnerability until the end of your next turn... So um yeah...
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Post  Xel Unknown Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:22 am

Also I say the fact that It's Over still exists in this system is just plan wrong. "It's Over" to me stands as a testament to everything that's HOLDING the combat system back from being the most fun of anything and is braking the building of new talents because it's just so broken as a whole, yet I'd argue it's NOT the fact it can do such damage all at once. Because of a few things... One, why is it -17? Why that weird of all pips costs, it's what makes it start being off... Next... It's both an AOE and a Single Target modes. That is not right one bit to me, making even more of a black sheep of black sheep's... Also, it's continued existence in this game as being an "official" combat talent forces the building of +4 and +5 talents to make those inherently broken or useless because if those are made it'll make is only easier to "brake" the game by allowing the black sheep to have other set ups that can work with it...
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Post  Greywander Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:22 am

Hmm, perhaps the functionality of DDR just needs to be changed slightly. Maybe something like this:

[+X] Daredevil's Rush - Standard Action
You suffer Vulnerability X and gain the Clear Target status effect until the start of your next turn. While under the Clear Target effect, your allies cannot use combat talents to block, reduce, or redirect damage dealt to you. X cannot be greater than 10.

What needs to be understood is the function behind DDR, or rather, the reason people take it: to get a lot of pips. Reducing the number of pips it grants will only make people stop taking it. Instead, what needs to be balanced is the negative effect, to make sure it's both heavy handed (but not so much that the talent becomes unusable) while also not being easily mitigated. With the above change, you can still combo with Form of the Reaper, or similar, but even after, you still suffer vulnerability and Clear Target until your next turn, meaning you could die a second time before then. Not sure this is the best or even a good change, but just my two bits.

Oh, also, Die Another Day + DDR. Even without Form of the Reaper/Iron Shield/any kind of damage mitigation, this combo is still viable, and not really overpowered on its own. Still might not be a bad idea to take something like Craft Emergency Provisions, though.

As for Grab For Power, it seems slightly underpowered to me, as the average expected value pip gain is only 1.5. Like DDR, GFP is for players that want a chance at getting a lot of pips at once, and yet it only grants 5 pips max. 5 pips is a lot, but there are less risky ways to get that (maybe not in a single turn, though). The smart thing to do is to replace it with a decent [+2] or [+3] talent (like, say, Critfisher). Would it make it too powerful to bump it up to a [+7] talent? Or maybe make it [+8], but lose 1d10 pips?

And now, I will present my own build for the Tatters of Harmony campaign:
Now we fight like mad scientists:

The tactic used should be obvious. Critfisher, paying the 2 pips to roll 5d12. On a crit, I have a 4/5 chance to activate a supremely powerful ability for free, all the while slowly building up pips to pay for one. Need to do the math and see if it's actually better not to pay the 2 pips for Critfisher, though.

I'm not sure if this is actually broken, but I intend to find out. To make it even better, I'm planning on getting some of the following traits:
Spoiler:

Hmm, can I get some more talents in the [-7] to [-10] range that have something besides raw damage? It's nice to have some variety.
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Post  Xel Unknown Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:35 am

You aren't braking Critfisher to it's full level... YOU NEED GATHER ENERGY FOR THAT!!! Then it brake everything, and be awesome while doin' that.
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Post  Ramsus Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:44 pm

Greywanderer, that doesn't fix Daredevil's Rush. It just makes it unusable. Think about it for a second. "I gain 8 pi-" "minion hits you, you die" "I Defen-" "No." That's what it would look like every time. That's pointless.

There's nothing broken about Critfisher and Gather Energy, it's exactly the same as using Critfisher two turns in a row, except you gain an extra pip.

Edit: Also I'd say you've misunderstood the point of Daredevil's Rush. It's not "to gain a lot of pips", it's "to put a bunch of the party's pips over on this person so one person can pull off an awesome move while others of us support". Outside of ridiculous cheese (that dazing should more or less block a lot of) it always needs support from the rest of the party to function.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:26 pm

Since the system is built around [+3] being similar to skipping your turn with a few more bells and whistles attached, [+4] needs to come with a huge drawback. Stunned, vulnerability 4 (which can easily cause you to explode if an enemy has a multi-attack or there's a few minions lying around) and similar are what we're talking about. Gaining 5 pips in a single move has to have an *insane* drawback - hence All or Nothing being the new standard for it. When you build around 3 pips being the standard, it's very important to make things that break the rule have huge drawbacks - because players love finding ways to mitigate, get around those drawbacks or even turn them into advantages. It makes the talents less broken and a better building challenge at the same time.

Daredevil's Rush can generate more pips than All or Nothing at much less danger in any of the scenarios proposed thus far that would still cap it at 10. Even Grey's can still combo with Gather Energy to not let your enemies hit you between gaining the pips and blowing them.

So yes, we need to balance against All or Nothing and its friends.
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Post  Ramsus Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:33 pm

You can't balance against All or Nothing though. It's too extreme and only usable via munchkin methods in the first place.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:34 pm

Which is exactly the point. [+5] powers shouldn't exist unless that undo your very soul. Being above [+3] comes with exponentially huge drawbacks.

However, it is possible to use non-munchkin as a last-ditch effort to win a battle.
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