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Timmy, Johnny and Spike (Player Psychographics explained)

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Post  Ramsus Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:53 pm

That was not what I was saying and frankly I don't believe for a second you honestly thought that's what I was saying. Now you're just being rude.

What I actually said was that by designing for Spike, Timmy, and Johnny when you shouldn't be, you are lessening the fun of others who don't have their same values. In particular the types of people who are most likely to be playing the system you've designed. Those people are not all (most, or even probably) Spike, Timmy, and Johnny. Not "deep down" or any other hogwash like that, no matter what you want to believe.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:01 am

No Ramsus. I made a statement that some players have different desires when it comes to how they want to play combat than how they want to roleplay. You said this doesn't make sense. I said that it's simply the reality of the situation that these players exist. You claimed that was arrogant and that I was insisting I was correct and ignoring your opinion. I clarified that all I was saying was doing was confirming my own existence and those of quite a few players I know. Then... It comes across as arrogant and rude?

I'm just confused.
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Post  Philadelphus Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:14 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Johnny/Spike & Spike/Johnny
Johnny/Spike wants to triumph. He just wants to triumph with style. Johnny/Spike is the rogue character builder. He's the guy that comes up with the crazy builds that just might work. But Johnny/Spike takes the next step; he actually plays it. Johnny/Spike is out to triumph while having the limitation of also being innovative while he does so. He also enjoys finding undervalued effects that most people think are terrible but he sees the hidden potential buried within.
(bolded for emphasis)

I think that describes me the best. I want to win, while also indulging arbitrary personal limitations for the challenge (of course I have a lot of fun doing this, so I guess I'm partly Timmy as well). That's why I've intentionally avoided all forms of Regen and have focused my build entirely around reactions and ongoing damage and ways to increase it and keep enemies from saving against it.
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Post  Nehiel Mori Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:16 am

I'm confused as to where the idea this is primarily a role play system came about. It's not. It's also not a combat system. It's both. Equal parts combat and role play BECAUSE we don't want to make players be forced to choose between the two. Timmy, Johnny and Spike are combat archetypes. We don't design the entire system with Timy Johny and Spike in mind. We design the combat system with them in mind. If you are a player who dislikes combat and that is not a system issue. It's an issue with the adventure design and your GM. We are building a system. You could ignore entirely combat or role playing in your adventure design because of we firmly seperate the two but to say we should build combat with the combat archetypes in mind is silly. You said yourself that the archetypes you posted don't like combat so why should we design the combat system for people who want to skip combat or think its a chore? We design the non-combat part of the system for them because that's what they enjoy. We design the combat part for the archetypes that enjoy combat. We don't design the entire system with the combat archetypes in mind, nor the role play archtypes. Designing the role play side thinking of TJ and S is just as silly as designing the combat side for the role players. If combat and role play were linked we'd need to think about that but they aren't. You could take the combat side of PT/LL and make it into a Pvp game or a turn based tatics game. You could take the role play side and turn it into a text adventure or a point and click.

We make each side of the system with the appropriate archetypes in mind. If you don't like combat because it's not your cup of tea but your game keeps having combat that is not our fault. That's just the adventure design you are in.
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Post  Whiteeyes Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:21 am

Johnny/Spike here. I want to use an interesting combo build that isn't "push button and win" but takes some skill AND is perfectly viable. I like making ideas viable. This has nothing to do with my RP archetype.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:25 am

Two more fellow kinsmen! Let us form the legion of Johnny/Spikes!
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Post  Nehiel Mori Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:30 am

Screw you! Timmy/Johnny for life
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:32 am

Lol, be nice Nehiel. I know you're joking but... Wink
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Post  LoganAura Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:52 am

Actually, I'm probably more 30 Spike, 40 Timmy, 30 Johnny.
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Post  Ramsus Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:12 am

Ok, since Stairc and I are misunderstanding each other I'll just respond to Nehiel and hope they both get what I'm trying to say.

First off, Spike, Timmy, and Johnny aren't roleplaying archetypes. Not in the least. This would be like trying to say chess player archetypes are football player archetypes. They're wildly different games, for different purposes, that have too little in common for these archetypes to hold up as the important ones for the other game type.

I think I see at least one of the major problems here. You're not supposed to design a system, even if it has two parts, for different kinds of people. That results in a total overall system that none of the people you're designing for enjoy. You have to design as if one person is playing all the parts of your system because that's the reality of the situation.

Yes, roleplaying archetypes sometimes dislike combat itself. The option to not have combat isn't really viable though. So those people still need a combat system that functions for them. One that is designed for Spike, Timmy, and Johnny is going to make those people miserable, while on the other hand any system at all works well enough for those three archetypes.

This system is a roleplaying game. You can try to stick a combat game onto it but, it's still primarily a roleplaying game. That's what people are playing the system for. The roleplaying, not the combat. Some might like the combat side of things but, it has to work for the people you expect to be playing. Those people are not primarily Spike, Timmy, and Johnny. The fact that we have a few combat focused games is because people will pretty much screw around with things no matter what. That doesn't effect the needs of your system or it's intended playstyle (which is not to basically ignore everything that isn't combat).

What I am saying here Nehiel, is that what you're trying to do doesn't work. If you want to make two separate games, make two separate games. Don't try and force people who want to play one, also play the other, even when it isn't designed for them to enjoy. Pony Tales/Living Legends as an RPG system needs a matching combat system that works well for the people on the roleplaying side of things.

I'm not saying there's any super major changes needed to make PT/LL's combat work better for the intended players either. You just need to remove or change some things that are only there to serve the purpose of making Spike/Timmy/Johnny happy and you need to change other things so that there aren't so many (any would be the idealized goal) bad choices for those who haven't passed AP Combat Building because many player just aren't that knowledgeable with these things and they shouldn't have to be to enjoy themselves. They certainly don't for the non-combat side of things. This creates a frustrating disparity, where they see the majority of the system and assume that combat will logically follow the same intuitive non-punishing design style only to groan as they encounter combat and they are met with horrible failure and then forced, while already aggravated, to go learn a combat system that they might not even want to spend the time learning in that amount of detail. Alternately they could do something equally unpleasant and basically be handing control over their character to someone else in the party who understands these things better than they do. Either way, it's not going to be fun for them.
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Post  LoganAura Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:26 am

Ramsus, I think maybe we should keep the game design for the people who actually go to college for it Smile You don't have to only choose one branch to focus on, even if it's developing like that. The RPers can go with flavoring their combat so that the combat can be done with a dramatic flair. Making Draw Blood a vial of acid, or a Fire Giant into a drawing of a Gary Stu Alicorn OC for example, even if the combat themselves are designed to make the different combat types have fun.
Sally wants to talk about the background of the story? Give each of her combat talents a reason in her backstory, like the weapon she pulls out as a last resort being handed down in her family line. Dave wants to just roleplay? Flavor the talents designed for the character themselves since even if he uses basic ones, he can add a little bit of drama to the moves themselves as he goes around. Steve want to play the game that the DM sets out? Flavor the moves to be perfectly compatable with what the DM's story is. The combat is flavor malleable for that reason. And even the Utilities are. After all, an Earth Pony flying around on a rocket board is just something a Sally would like, and she can use that in her combat just as fine as you did.
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Post  Ramsus Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:34 am

Ok, 1) Logan, do you even think about what you're saying before you type it? OMG, so offensive. (This is hardly the first time either.)
Edit: Though feel free to bow out of the conversation any time you like.

2) No, roleplaying in combat does not magically fix the problem that a combat system is not enjoyable for people it's not designed for.
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Post  LoganAura Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:42 am

Ramsus. I was just saying that neither of us really understand how to design a game well, so we /both/ should keep out of it and let the people who do know how to do it do it, since they know how to design games for more than a narrow spectrum of people. I'm very sorry for offending you with that. I honestly didn't mean to. And I don't see how what I said was offensive at all.
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Post  Whiteeyes Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:48 am

Since it seemed like you were referring to yourself as an expert, it sounded patronizing at the time.

Also, Ramsus, as someone who's worked on designing their own game system, it's not that simple. At all. It's nealt impossible to design roleplaying mechanics; the rules are mainly tools used by others to assemble they character they want to roleplay. How you approach combat as a character is still roleplaying, despite what many think. How you fight says a lot about your character. Slow and methodical? Wild and random? Do you focus on one target at a time or do you go for them all at once? Are you focused on the long game or a quick win? All these things are still roleplay decisions, just expressed in mechanical analogs.
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Post  LoganAura Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:50 am

Thanks for clarifying Whiteeyes, and I have a bit of an issue coming off as patronizing. Thank you again for being clear.
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Post  Ramsus Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:57 am

Ok, why are you guys assuming I don't know how the design a game? Is the advice I'm giving impractical in some way? "Don't make unbalanced stuff that's aimed outside your target player group" and "please realize who your actual target player group is" doesn't sound like anything hard too grasp.

So in fact Logan, maybe it is just that you don't know jack about game design and should stop assuming I don't when you can't understand what I'm saying.

Logan, you honestly don't want me to go into a very detailed explanation of why that was offensive. In the future, just refrain from making the argument "you aren't good at this because you didn't go to college for it". That should keep you out of a lot of hot water right there.

Whiteeyes, how many games do you think I've worked on? Does it really come off as if this is my first or something? *sigh* I know it's not simple. That's why I tried to explain my actionable advice as simply as possible. It takes a lot of balance checking almost constantly. And in the end as theMatthew has said before, the concept of "balance" is just a myth. There is no true balance but, this shouldn't stop of from endeavoring for trying to attain some level of it anyway.
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Post  Ramsus Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:08 am

I'm going to have to excuse myself from this discussion since Logan threatened to ban me for pointing out he was being rude to me. Until an official apology is given I will also be excusing myself from any and all system discussions.

Edit: I would be more than happy, with Logan's permission, to publicly share the PM he sent.
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Post  LoganAura Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:23 am

Ramsus, the issue wasn't that you pointed out I was being rude, it was the way. You were disrespectful and haven't apologized once for being disrespectful to anyone.not to Dan and the rest of the game designers, not to anyone else on the forums that you may have come off as rude to, and not to me. I didn't threaten to ban you for saying I was rude, I'm thanking you for pointing it out. I agree that the way I say things come off as rude and I'm extremely sorry for it! It was your way of pointing it out, by returning my warning to you back at me and adding that "OMG SO OFFENSIVE"

HOWEVER.

You /threatened/ me in your latest pm, which I will gladly share with your permission, after I gave you a warning for being disrespectful.

I am truly sorry if you feel that being banned for threatening a moderator is unfair, but I'm going to talk with the other moderators about it to see if they agree that threatening a moderator, or any other member of the community, should be banned.

Because you're still a good member of the community- most of the time- It will likely be only a temporary ban.
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Post  Ramsus Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:31 am

1) That is a lie. Several times I have apologized to people. Often at unnecessary threat of ban but, also to anyone else not a member of the staff whenever it was pointed out who I offended and how.

2) I didn't threaten you. I merely pointed out you were causing a situation that would cause a lot of drama.

3) That's a very um... special... circumstance of me being rude to you. I don't see it as particularly rude for one thing. Would you like to perhaps make a poll and see how many people think that was a rude response to what you said?
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Post  LoganAura Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:32 am

Ramsus, Can I quote your pm?
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Post  Ramsus Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:43 am

Edit: Actually. Everyone please just ignore these last few posts by Logan and myself. This is a stupid drama spiral that I don't want anything to do with even though I'm in the middle of it. I don't think it's fair to anyone of either Logan or myself to risk catching more people up in it.

Spoiler:
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Post  Nehiel Mori Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:32 am

Re: Drama
Does not concern me and I'm not here for it, so no comment.

Re: Game Design!

I don't recall claiming TJ and S as roleplaying archetypes. If I did then I apologize for that because they aren't.
I don't do much combat design. I'm very much a ideas guy who wants to create cool things hence most of my work has been in the roleplaying side of development. But if we try to design combat for people who don't like combat then it ends up dull and boring. Kinda reminds me of Mass Effect 1's combat. By creating chat with TJ and S we can try to make it interesting. I understand that some role players don't want to build a crazy build and that's fine! It's not hard to make a build that's fun for people in PT/LL. At least to my knowledge it's not a difficult process. I've heard no concerns.

But if we can give the system some depth, why not? We don't want to make it at the level fighting games or RTS's have because we don't want people to have to have taken AP build making. But that doesn't mean that we can't have any depth or combos. Player discovery is a huge process in making games fun and the role playing side has that in spades! GM get to craft entire worlds for thier players to explore! It's awesome! I want combat to still have that level of discovery and enjoyment. I don't want to make it inaccessible. Hopefully by designing with TJ and S in mind we can put some of that depth it but keep the accessibility.
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Post  Hayatecooper Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:45 am

Hi.

Just been reading through all this gaming Archetype stuff, and I'm not sure I 100% agree with it. Maybe I learned something different when I went through uni and all, but the one's I learned were these. (Side note: I learned these in relation to video games, but these were all based off MUD's(Multi User Dungeons) or really old Role-playing games that based themselves of systems like DnD, which Pony Tales and of course Living Legends is. I'll put them in a spoiler so the thing isn't more huge then it needs to be.)

Spoiler:

Basically These archetypes are RP ones, but can also be used in terms of combat. I know you aren't going to please everyone but combat combo's like "Draw blood + Kindle Pain" are going to attract archetypes like the Disruptor or The Gamer: Both of which are probably going to go "Hold up, this is going to severely weaken the enemy (Increasing my chance of success! Screwing over my opponents lol!) and take it.

I'm not saying stuff like Timmy and Spike are wrong. I just think they are a little? I don't know, limiting. Especially for a game where so many personalities are going to be mixing.

Anyway, that's my two cents, feel free to ignore it and or tell me nicely why I'm wrong.



Last edited by Hayatecooper on Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Philadelphus Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:57 am

Hayatecooper wrote:I know you aren't going to pleas everyone but combat combo's like "Draw blood + Kindle Pain" are going to attract archetypes like the Disruptor or The Gamer
You're talking about me, aren't you. Smile I can feel it.
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Post  Hayatecooper Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:58 am

I plead the fifth
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