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Define "Magic"

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Post  Greywander Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:24 am

It all started with a simple question... can I use True Sight to detect shapeshifted changelings?

Now, what True Sight does is it strips the world of magic so that you can see things as they truly are. But just what is "magic"? If I cloak myself in an illusion to make myself appear like something I'm not, that's definitely magic. ...Unless I'm using some sort of gadget to do it, in which case, is it magic? So what about shapeshifting? If I use magic (so, magic is used in the process) to physically alter my appearance, can True Sight be used to see through it? What's the difference, really, between using a spell to change your shape, and getting plastic surgery? Just so long as the shapeshifting spell is permanent and does not need to be sustained. What about ponykinesis, for that matter? If an object has ever been displaced with ponykinesis, can I tell that it's been "physically altered with magic"? Because that's what shapeshifting is, physically altering something with magic. True shapeshifting permanently changes the shape, and once the shift is complete, the magic is done, over. There's no "ongoing magical effect" (or else it's not true shapeshifting), just like there isn't an "ongoing magical effect" on objects that have been moved with ponykinesis.

The problem is that, particularly in a setting like MLP, separating magic from non-magic isn't easy to do, if it's possible at all. The line between the two is kind of blurry. Cutie marks are magic, pegasi are magic, timber wolves are magic, the sun and moon are apparently magic. Literally everything in the world has its own magic, as far as I can tell. Life, itself, could even be considered magic. So how do we define "magic" in a world like this?

Discuss.
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Post  thematthew Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:38 am

Obviously Magic is what makes it all complete.

But seriously, this is a big issue because people can have non-magic ways of doing basically any talent and it should be addressed. Gut instinct would be magic = anything requiring a magic point as well as any power which creates something that can be seen through with a perception check.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:54 am

Depends on your DM, but I'd say that the changeling abilities are magical in nature.
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Post  A1C Bronymous Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:01 am

He has a valid point. In a game where literally everything can be rewritten and reflavored, magic, and a lot of other things, are of questionable definition. That's why limiting things is necessary. For example, in my game, I limited technology. No hover jets, transporters, communicators, or hologram technology, so no flavoring involving those things, which makes it much easier to define how things can cannot work- magic, and True sight, for example.

But Ultimately, for something like this that's so hard to answer, you just have to trust the DM to make a good decision.
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Post  SilentBelle Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:28 am

Maybe, if you were in a campaign where everything was re-flavoured so it was non-magical, then it would be easier if True Sight let you make a sight-based perception check with a +30 bonus to see things as they are, or something like that.
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Post  Greywander Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:38 am

I guess the issue is that "magic" still has tangible, physical effects. Like shapeshifting vs. plastic surgery. The end result is the same, just the method is different. If I hide behind a curtain, or if I magically create a perfectly ordinary cloth to hide behind, is there actually a difference? The line between magic and mundane isn't as clear cut as some people think. Why is steel so strong? Magic! Magnets? Miracles Magic! Sure, we know they're not magic, but to generic medieval fantasy peasant, these things would qualify as magic, and maybe in-universe, they are magic. What's the difference between Alchemy and Chemistry? Nothing, really, except one is "magic", and one is not.

This isn't just an issue with True Sight. A lot of settings have Anti Magic thingies (whether an anti magic field, or magic blocking handcuffs for those lawbreaking wizards, or whatever). "Magic" comes up a lot in the description of things, whether it's seeing magic, blocking magic, enhancing magic, reversing magic, dispelling magic...

We could limit it to specifically referring to unicorn spells, in which case, no, True Sight wouldn't reveal changelings, unless their shapeshifting works on the same principle as unicorn magic (which it might). There's also Sombra's dark magic, is that the same as unicorn magic, or different? What about effects that block, say, pegasus magic? Is griffon or diamond dog magic a thing? Zebra magic? Just how many subcategories do we need, and where do we draw the lines between them?

When you think about it, it's kind of ridiculous. Try replacing the word "magic" with "science", and see how much sense some of these abilities make. "Scientifically create enough food for you and five friends..." okay, that works. "Strips the world of science allowing you to see things as they really are..." uh, not so much (okay, I'm paraphrasing, the original makes a little more sense). We're used to dealing with a mostly non-magical setting with magic added on top, but MLP weaves the magic so heavily into the setting that something like an anti magic field would probably be more like a "slow and painful death" field. (inb4 someone writes a fic with that as a premise.)

I mean, someone could write an article a book about magic in MLP, but I don't think you could do that without significantly expanding issues like religion, philosophy, metaphysics, history, and basically building the entirety of Equestrian culture from the ground up. It's that intricately interwoven into the setting. Magic is way more than just the spells unicorns cast.
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Post  SilentBelle Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:48 am

The problem should also be looked at from the Living Legends side, because any race can learn magic. And I think the best option to the handling of magic is to leave it in the DMs hands. If it's a SiFi setting, then everything magic is going to be replaced with technology or psionics. It would be hard to verify what 'magic' is without restricting the creativity of the system.

I don't think I can come up with a good enough 'blanket rule' to fix it, dealing with it on a case-by-case basis I could do as a DM, but I don't think I can solve this particular problem from a development standpoint Sad
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Post  Whiteeyes Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:53 am

Actually, despite what many people think, Alchemy is radically different from chemistry or modern science. A lot of it involved mystical chanting, runes, exortic rituals. It was loaded down with just as much superstition as any other form of mysticism; they only become scientific by comparison with their contemporaries, and even then it's blown out of proportion in the modern world via romanticism about "a few early scientists branded as heretical mages for trying to bring science to the world". Some of those "early scientists" performed blood sacrifice on the nights of a full so that a mixture of violets, St. Agnes thistle, spoiled milk, and mistletoe would make a deadly poison. Please note the last three items; they are all toxic on their own, but only mildly so. Mixing them together would be pretty nasty. The violets and blood sacrifice were just the trappings of mysticism the alchemists believed they needed to perform.
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Post  Greywander Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:55 am

The problem with having it be on a case by case basis with the DM acting as the arbiter is that the player must understand how the ability works, or it will lead to miscommunication and bad feelings between the player and DM. For example, the player will use the ability, believing it will work a certain way, with what he does next hinging on the results of the ability. The DM, however, might believe the ability works differently, and is therefore not useful in this case. The player will be frustrated at best, infuriated at worst, when he discovers that True Sight doesn't reveal X when he just assumed that it would, and knowing that it wouldn't reveal X, he would have done something completely different.

Basically, when the player and the DM both have different ideas about how an ability works, that's bad.

As for Alchemy vs. Chemistry, yes, I know they were quite a bit different as far as the trappings go, but the process you described more or less sounds like a generic pharmaceutical process, but with chanting and stuff. (I don't actually know a lot about medicine.) Either it's all not magic, in which case all those potions and witch's brews don't count as magic, or it's all magic, in which case those potions and brews that don't have the chanting are missing a critical ingredient that changes the function of the potion (but again, even the "scientific" potions are still just as magical as the "magical" potions). That's how I'd treat it, anyway. Either/or, don't have both magical alchemy and scientific chemistry exist side by side.

The way I see it, "magic" is sort of a confusing term, and basically encompasses everything supernatural, whether it's gods, angels and demons, wizards and witches, ghosts and necromancers, what have you. Anything beyond our ability to comprehend could qualify as magic, but then it depends on the level of intelligence of the observer. For example, doors might seem magical to a dog; they have no idea how the physics behind doors, hinges, and handles works, and no amount of explaining it to them will make them understand, and yet they're able to learn to manipulate door handles to open doors. A computer doesn't count as magic to us, since, even if we don't understand how they work, we at least have the ability to comprehend it if it were explained to us. Throw in things like wizards and ghosts, and what they do is perfectly natural to them, but magic to us. From this perspective, it makes no sense to have something that affects "magic", because "magic" isn't a thing, but more a perspective. Depending on your point of reference, something may or may not be magic. So in MLP, unicorns spells wouldn't even technically be magic, not unless they just have no idea how they work even though they're able to use them.

In actual folklore, cold iron was believed to have a sort of antimagic effect that would ward off faeries (the nasty kind), and possibly ghosts and whatnot as well. Silver, conversely, was thought to be magical, and could also ward off ghosts and damage supernatural or evil entities. If we want to understand how these sorts of effect should be done properly, folklore might be a good place to look (although we'll no doubt find lots of conflicting accounts on how it was supposed to work). Something I've noticed, though, is that it tends to be very specific to the creature being countered. You don't fight a faery the same way you fight a ghost the same way you fight a vampire the same way you fight a werewolf the same way you fight a witch. You might use cold iron against some, silver against others, but the way it's used and the exact effect it has varies from creature to creature. And chocolate is poisonous to dogs, a mundane example of this sort of thing.

As for True Sight, the question is, should it see through both magic and mundane, or only magic (and if the latter, then what qualifies as magic?)? I'd argue that shapeshifting induces a permanent change of shape, and therefore can't be seen through, whereas an illusion maintained by a unicorn's spell would leave obvious trails of magic that you could see with True Sight. We can also eschew external shape entirely, and have you able to see the "essence" or "true form" or "spiritual form" of a person or object, but this would also pierce mundane methods of concealment or disguise.
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Post  Grey Pen The Flawed Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:27 pm

Magic is sufficiently advanced technology. Or insufficiently analyzed science, depending on which way you're looking at it.

Nice hat.
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Post  AProcrastinatingWriter Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:57 pm

Interesting theory.

Let's see what Harry Dresden, actual fictional wizard, has to say about that.

"Sufficiently advanced technology, my ass."

Well there you go!

Spoiler:

MORE ON TOPIC, uh...

...huh.

Complicated issue. So complicated, I'm afraid the only simple answer anyone's gonna be able to offer up is "GM Fiat". Sorry.

EDIT: Still, I shall make an attempt.

Even if unicorn spells aren't actually magic by their perspective, they still call them magic. Thusly, it seems obvious that you should be able to see through any unicorn spells, and by extension any non-unicorn spells.

I think maybe that's the line that needs to be crossed in order to be seen through - does what you're attempting to see through require a spell to be in existence? If yes, you get the bonus.
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Post  Grey Pen The Flawed Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:35 pm

I see your Harry Dresden, and raise you an Agatha Heterodyne.

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"

So not tech maybe... but definitely scientific. Just a different aspect of it.
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Post  Appkes Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:24 pm

Remove all illusions in target area, detect ongoing world-changing effects and all world-changing effects within the last [time period]. Seems pretty simple to me. Anything that is changing or masking the world is highlighted along with anything or anywhere that something changed or masked the world within a set time period.
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Post  Cardbo Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:35 am

Grey Pen wrote:Magic is sufficiently advanced technology. Or insufficiently analyzed science, depending on which way you're looking at it.

Nice hat.

Clarke's Law. IOW, the difference between magic and science is that with magic you don't know how it works, but with science you do. Whether its magic or science is in the eye of the beholder.
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Post  Xel Unknown Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:41 pm

To me and my headcannon, EVERYTHING that's alive in equestira got magic in it's body. And starting off with the first three pony types, I like to think that Earth Pony Magic is the most powerful of the three, followed by Pegasus, then Unicorn magic with it being the weakest. Yet Unicorn magic is the easiest to use out of all magic types and can be used for nearly anything.
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Post  Whiteeyes Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:11 pm

I think the main problem in defining magic is that we're looking at it from the predominate western understanding of mysticism which is the hermetic method (which, incidentally, we owe more to the creation of modern science than alchemy). The hermetic method was the study of the phenomenon of the natural world to try and unlock its secrets. How do fish breath without air, yet chock without water? What mechanism keeps birds afloat, surely not just wings or else the ones they wore would work. Where is fire stored inside the wood before it is let out? Some of these questions seem silly to us, but they were the great inquiries of their time. Hermetics believed that by studying the natural world, they could learn its secrets and use them. They would learn the tricks of fish and breath water, soar like the birds, and manufacture fire without needing to store it wood. All they had to do was analyze and discover how the magic worked.
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Post  RavenscroftRaven Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:11 am

...And now we can breathe water (see: This Link)
Soar like birds (see: Planes)
And manufacture fire without wood (see: Magnesium Flares)

Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

True Seeing, in this setting, should simply be "your next perception check that involves sight and seeing is considered a natural 20 and critical success". This is enough, in this setting, to see through invisibility, to identify flaws in costumes, et cetera.
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Post  Grey Pen The Flawed Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:36 am

Now that I've had time to think about MLP magic, I think I can define how it works according to my personal head-cannon:

"Magic", as it is in-setting, is a very specific and unique type of energy. From here, when I say "magic", I am referring to this energy. Magic has the innate ability to directly alter matter that it comes into contact with. Exactly how it is altered depends on how it is applied; but it can animate what would otherwise be a lump of flesh and bone, thus creating life. But it can also affect the body itself, along with giving it consciousness.

Now, magic is always the same, regardless of source or application; the difference is how it is applied. Keep this in mind for a minute.

In an Earth Pony, this magic happens to agree with the structure of the body as such that it creates a much higher bone density and muscle tone, effectively making a stronger pony. It's "Earth Pony Magic" that allows Big Mac to drag a house off of it's foundations. But, not all Earth Ponies feel the effects as drastically; this is why Pinkie Pie can't do the same feats of strength. The magic does not affect her the same way; she has "Pinkie Pie" magic that lets her do... Pinkie Pie stuff.

Now, a Unicorn has a horn that acts as an "emitter" of sorts, allowing them to direct and apply that magic in a predetermined manner. This allows for a variety of effects, depending on how drastically the magic affects that particular Unicorn; Twilight is much more affected than Rarity, which is why Twilight's spells are stronger and more varied.

I could go on for quite a while... but I'm getting tired.
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Post  AProcrastinatingWriter Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:48 pm

RavenscroftRaven wrote:Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Did you not see the thing

A page ago

About that

I mean admittedly that was a pretty darn good counter by Grey Pen but it didn't actually negate Dresden's point, just brought up a new, different, and more triumphant point.
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Post  Grey Pen The Flawed Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:00 am

Mm hm. I'm not trying to explain it as sufficiently advanced tech; I'll admit it's magic. I am merely analyzing it sufficiently enough to call it a science. I'm pretty sure the characters it affects have done so already, even if they continue to call it magic and even if it's a fairly rough science for them. They are in fact able to predict what will happen when X is added to Y with a fair amount of accuracy, by comparing prior observations.
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Post  AProcrastinatingWriter Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:20 am

Grey Pen wrote:Mm hm. I'm not trying to explain it as sufficiently advanced tech; I'll admit it's magic. I am merely analyzing it sufficiently enough to call it a science. I'm pretty sure the characters it affects have done so already, even if they continue to call it magic and even if it's a fairly rough science for them. They are in fact able to predict what will happen when X is added to Y with a fair amount of accuracy, by comparing prior observations.

...this brings up an interesting point, actually.

Because when it comes to Discord, he's...well, he's illogic incarnate. There is no way to analyze the things he does. Thusly, it is easily apparent that his magic is decidedly different from the ponies'. So in theoretical situations involving Discord, does True Sight still work on his significantly different magic? Is his magic even magic at all, when it gets down to it, or something even more wild and fantastic than the magic in their realm?

I guess as a GM I wouldn't be tacky enough to say "no, Discord's magic is too different, you can't use it" and I don't think many other people would be either, so this point of contention is actually entirely pointless...but still, if it all were real, I can't help but wonder if it would still work.
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Post  Cardbo Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:06 am

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:
Grey Pen wrote:Mm hm. I'm not trying to explain it as sufficiently advanced tech; I'll admit it's magic. I am merely analyzing it sufficiently enough to call it a science. I'm pretty sure the characters it affects have done so already, even if they continue to call it magic and even if it's a fairly rough science for them. They are in fact able to predict what will happen when X is added to Y with a fair amount of accuracy, by comparing prior observations.

...this brings up an interesting point, actually.

Because when it comes to Discord, he's...well, he's illogic incarnate. There is no way to analyze the things he does. Thusly, it is easily apparent that his magic is decidedly different from the ponies'. So in theoretical situations involving Discord, does True Sight still work on his significantly different magic? Is his magic even magic at all, when it gets down to it, or something even more wild and fantastic than the magic in their realm?

I guess as a GM I wouldn't be tacky enough to say "no, Discord's magic is too different, you can't use it" and I don't think many other people would be either, so this point of contention is actually entirely pointless...but still, if it all were real, I can't help but wonder if it would still work.

I think Discord's magic might be able to be analyzed, just it'd have an extremely high DC. Afterall, its not necessarily chaos magic, even if thats the end effect, just a whole lot of transmutation from one thing to the other. Granted, its still pretty impressive.
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Post  Grey Pen The Flawed Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:05 am

My theory on "Discord Magic":

Part 1: No, it is no different at all from any other magic; the difference is how it is applied, and how much. Discord is clearly affected in a vastly different manner, which changes how he is able to apply it.

Part 2: It is not truly "chaotic"; I haven't seen him in action, but from what I've garnered he does in fact know what he's doing when he snaps his fingers. The apparent randomness comes in how he decides what to do; Discord is chaotic, not the magic he's using.
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Post  SilentBelle Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:45 pm

Grey Pen wrote:My theory on "Discord Magic":

Part 1: No, it is no different at all from any other magic; the difference is how it is applied, and how much. Discord is clearly affected in a vastly different manner, which changes how he is able to apply it.

Part 2: It is not truly "chaotic"; I haven't seen him in action, but from what I've garnered he does in fact know what he's doing when he snaps his fingers. The apparent randomness comes in how he decides what to do; Discord is chaotic, not the magic he's using.

Heh, I just finished off my fic (just finished it off yesterday, took nine months, but it was fun) which delved into Discord's type of magic. So I have ideas on how he uses his magic Smile It's touches upon these points fairly well.
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Post  Greywander Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:25 pm

I've actually done a bit of thinking on the subject of chaotic and harmonic magic. Of course, there's no support for it in the canon, but having something like this can be useful for coming up with ideas for, say, fanfiction, and can be set aside if you have a different idea that conflicts with it.

The first thing you need to understand is that Equestria is a magical land that doesn't operate on the physical principles we're familiar with. Magic acts as a fundamental force in nature, with things like gravity and light being magic. Magic runs along "streams" that can be thought of as similar to the lines of a magnetic field. Both harmonic and chaotic magic operate on the same concept of magic, but differ in their methods. All living things also emit a field of chaotic magic, making them necessarily affect their environment and those around them.

Harmonic, or Order based magic, works by manipulating existing streams of magic. For example, to levitate an object, you would bend the streams of gravity around the object, or even redirect them to push it some direction other than down. Harmonic magic seeks to tame nature and bring it under control, as can be seen with how Equestrian ponies control the weather, plant growth, animals, and even the sun and moon. Now, it can be used in a tyrannical fashion, but that's not generally what we've seen from ponies. Harmonic magic, though, is sterile. It becomes stronger when the user is in an area with stronger ambient magic, and is completely unusable when they're in an area with no ambient magic at all (but remember, all living things emit a field of chaotic magic).

Chaotic magic works by creating its own streams of magic. For example, to levitate an object, you would create a stream of force and run it against the stream of gravity, canceling it out. Chaotic magic is creative, and seeks to impress itself on the environment rather than to control it. In other words, it's very self-focused instead of other-focused. (I really should write that felpony fic, it would go into this kind of stuff and explain it in more detail. Felponies use chaotic magic, btw.) Chaotic magic is strongest when there's no ambient magic, and becomes weaker when there's more ambient magic to contend with.

And now for some bonus material: the only place that is completely devoid of ambient magic is the astral plane/dreamscape, which is essentially empty until an intelligent entity arrives. When dreaming, even primarily harmonic ponies are able to use their natural chaotic field to (temporarily) create whole worlds. Now, what would happen if someone with strong chaotic magic were to take over the dreamscape, or pull Equestria inside of it?

Discord's magic could fall into either category, really, and might even be a mix of both. That would actually explain why he's so powerful, being able to simultaneously manipulate existing magic and create his own. Thematically, though, he'd obviously favor chaotic magic.

I made all of this up before the season 3 opener, so Sombra's dark magic adds a different dimension, unless you think it's just a variation on either harmonic or chaotic magic.

Not sure exactly how this would affect abilities like True Sight.
Greywander
Greywander
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