Master of Air, Land, and Sea

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Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:06 pm

After some good advice, I have looked over the published utilities and boons and have come up with this:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AfKaeL7w3rF_PTVud1RHe65STyVheBNjb2ozFmgGCFs/edit#


Last edited by Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:25 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Zarhon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:20 pm

Doesn't seem all that amazing for a destiny... The only "benefit" that you get from it is the airship itself (inferior to the boon version until lvl 10) and a roll bonus (similar to FK) to operating said airship (boring, and you can still fail rolls epically). If you can't use the airship, the destiny does nothing. For a setting like spelljammer, this would be a good destiny, but this isn't spelljammer, and frequent use of aircraft (for anything other than a transport) is unlikely.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:32 pm

So what would you purpose to increase the awesomeness of this destiny? Also, some destinies like Dragon Disciple, are in the same boat if there are no dragons in the campaign.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:06 pm

Azureink wrote:Some destinies like Dragon Disciple, are in the same boat if there are no dragons in the campaign.

But Dragon Disciple functions perfectly fine in a world with (almost) no dragons, because the dragon mentor is offscreen. It's granting you bonuses from afar, instead of, say, letting you hitch a ride on it once a week.
I think the idea behind a destiny is to give a flat, tangible benefit to roleplaying, either through skill bonuses or utility talents. Something to the effect of "You have an airship" is much more of a boon. Hay, we have a boon for that. So the destiny for it would need to be...more of an archetype.
Do we want a Setzer (FF VI), travelling gambling womanizing millionaire, sort of airship owner, who gets bonuses to persuasion checks and romancing and maybe enventually gets Too Pretty to Die, where he can make anyone reroll a skill check 3/day? Or a Dread Pirate sort of airship owner, with bonuses to intimidation and acrobatics and working his way up to, say, an at-will stare, to make people do as he pleases? Do you have any preference past "I want an airship?"
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Paper Shadow on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:27 pm

Zarhon wrote:(inferior to the boon version until lvl 10)
To be fair, a Level 4 and 7 Destiny will always be worse than a Level 9 Boon. Always...

Azureink wrote:Also, some destinies like Dragon Disciple, are in the same boat if there are no dragons in the campaign.
Also to be fair, I've seen more campaigns just flat out deny the Dragon Disciple Destiny than add dragons to the campaign (although that counts stands at 1:0)...

I agree with the post above me. The best angle to design this is to aim less at the airship itself, and more at the captain piloting it. Your current design, although a good start, is basically a character sacrificing standard Destiny features for more boons. Have the ship growth more drastic (as in, personal one-man ship at Level 4, to six-man ship at Level 7, to twelve-man ship at Level 10), give a choice at Level 4 if the player wants to use Air, Sea, or Land Transport (gives more options for the player in a setting without air travel), and focus more on giving the Captain features which doesn't need the ship to use. Always remember that Destinies shape the personality your character becomes as the campaign continues. It ultimately defines a character, and if your character's greatest personality trait is the fact he owns a ship, then something is wrong...

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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Zarhon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:44 pm

Here's a different concept for the destiny, that should be a lot more attractive in general... It also allows for the pilot to have leeway with his ship operating.

Level 4: Pilot Cadet
Congratulations on acquiring your first airship! You come into possession of a small skiff that has enough room to fit you and up to six other medium-sized creatures. The airship moves at the speed of a swift horse-drawn carriage as easily through the air as if it were moving on the ground or sea. When you (and only you) roll to operate or repair this vehicle, you are treated as though under the effects of "This is Whining!" and have all DCs reduced by 10. In addition, you gain the following utility:

Nothing I can't pilot - 1/day
Preparation time: 10 minutes
You create a small amphibious or ground vehicle, large enough to carry two medium sized creatures. This vehicle is treated the same way as your airship when piloted by you. It is small enough to be piloted indoors, and remains functional for up to 8 hours, or until damaged.

Level 7: Midshipman
You have plowed the trade routes for a while now and have earned enough to upgrade your small skiff to the next category, a frigate. The airship is large enough to hold chambers for up to twelve medium-sized creatures. No creature is capable of piloting or controlling the ship unless allowed by you. The DCs to operate your frigate are now reduced by 15, and you may upgrade your airship with one of the following utilities:

Cargo hold
Your airship can carry up to three tons in weight and of any size smaller than itself without hindering its ability to fly, and may be used once a day to provide the "Instant Party" utility talent.

Harpoon Hooks
The ship is equipped harpoon hooks, capable of extending up to a mile in lenght. They may be fired at objects, other vehicles or even creatures to hook onto them, allowing them to be lifted, restrained, or pulled up, as though under the effects of "master ponykinesis". Once a day, you may use the hooks to "disengage" up to six creatures from a combat encounter, harmlessly removing them from the battle, from where you may bring them aboard the ship, or simply move them up to 200 feet away from the battle.

You also gain the following utility:

Remote piloting - 2/day
You may now pilot your airship from any distance for the next 10 minutes. You can use this to manipulate the airship as though you were piloting it, but suffer a -10 penalty to skill checks involving it, if you are unable to see/locate the aircraft.

Level 10: Airship Captain
For some, the sky's the limit. For you, it’s only the beginning. You have upgraded your frigate into an amazing galleon that holds chambers for up to eighteen medium-sized creatures. The ship gains:
-Whatever talent wasn't picked at level 7
-1/day versions of "Fast as Lightning" and "More than Meets the Eye" racial abilities
-A sentient construct, linked to the ship, that will protect the ship from boarders, thieves or other intruders.

Operating any vehicle is now always considered a cutie mark skill check, has it's DC reduced by 30, and provides a +5 bonus to skill checks for all other allied creatures witnessing the craft/pilot. You also gain the following utility:

Beam me up! - 1/day
Instantaneously teleport a willing creature aboard the airship. It must within line of sight of the airship, or within 1 mile.


Last edited by Zarhon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:55 pm

-Since at level 4 other people can try to pilot/repair the airship, you might want to explicitly state that they don't get your bonuses.
-I don't know about the combat application of the harpoon hooks. I suppose they fall under the same boat as the PH example of squeezing through a small vent to escape combat with a skill check, but since this isn't necessarily an "auto-combat ender," but it still severely weakens the enemy, it might have too profound an effect on combat. What if it was reworked so it simply let you nab up to six creatures outside of combat and deposit them. So perhaps the team would still have to incapacitate them or something.
-Does the fast as lightning talent damage the airship, or you? If it hurts you, couldn't you roll to control it from below deck to protect yourself?
-Do we need to define how this sentient construct works? Will it aid the players in combat?

Looks absolutely badass, for certain.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Zarhon on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:10 pm

sunbeam wrote:-Since at level 4 other people can try to pilot/repair the airship, you might want to explicitly state that they don't get your bonuses.
-I don't know about the combat application of the harpoon hooks. I suppose they fall under the same boat as the PH example of squeezing through a small vent to escape combat with a skill check, but since this isn't necessarily an "auto-combat ender," but it still severely weakens the enemy, it might have too profound an effect on combat. What if it was reworked so it simply let you nab up to six creatures outside of combat and deposit them. So perhaps the team would still have to incapacitate them or something.
-Does the fast as lightning talent damage the airship, or you? If it hurts you, couldn't you roll to control it from below deck to protect yourself?
-Do we need to define how this sentient construct works? Will it aid the players in combat?

Looks absolutely badass, for certain.

1) Edited to affect only the pilot.
2) Perhaps it should be modified to only allow allies, then? So that it can't be used to eject enemies for combat advantage, but allowing you to escape a bad combat situation?
3) Well, I'm thinking of it being akin to going "warp speed". It potentially *could* damage and/or destroy the ship, but also anyone on board, I think (do passengers of hippogriffs get hurt when being carried with "fast as lightning")? It's meant to be a emergency move, really, when the pilot is willing to risk crashing just to "get outta here". Plus, the pilot still has his bonuses in case things go south, and might be a factor in preventing the ship being damaged by it. It's all a question of whether the ship should be assigned hp, be considered "indestructible", or have its hp instead translate as a number of skill checks, but I'm not good at determining such stuff.
4) I think that should be up to the DM and/or the player to define, since combat is relative, but yes, the construct would assist with combat or attempt to prevent it, by (literally) throwing the intruders off the ship. It's inspired by this. Whether it aids with non-combat checks is debatable, but most likely, no, as it would probably go dormant when there aren't intruders aboard, or when the pilot doesn't activate it. DM's can still allow it of course.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:00 pm

Ok, using your idea I have made this version:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AfKaeL7w3rF_PTVud1RHe65STyVheBNjb2ozFmgGCFs/edit#

What do you think?
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Zarhon on Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:57 pm

Azureink wrote:Ok, using your idea I have made this version:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AfKaeL7w3rF_PTVud1RHe65STyVheBNjb2ozFmgGCFs/edit#

What do you think?

Hrm... This version seems a bit overpowered. There aren't any weaknesses/limitations to it, whilst providing rather major advantages.

- Lvl 7 should allow only one feature to be pickable on the ship. It already upgrades the captain and cargo hold with a pinkie party, any more is too much.

- Weaponry is a useful-only-for-combat thing, without being in any way specified on how it actually works (stats, etc), and utilities/destinies in general don't give combat advantages. It also more or less serves as an excuse to wreak havoc on a DM's campaign via abusing it. It should be scrapped, remodeled to be less viable for terrorism/dickery, or replaced with a choice of an instant party cargo hold.

- The lvl 7 remote should have limitations on amount/duration of use, otherwise it can be easily, endlessly abused from the ground (e.g. boosting persuasion by threatening them with the airship from the ground, or just endlessly attacking a building from afar and at no danger to yourself if the ship is attacked).

- The lvl 10 teleport seems overpowered if it allows the whole party, especially with the guaranteed availability of the craft (thanks to the remote). It's a daily "get out of any trouble free" card. One person (presumably, the captain) should be teleportable, so they can then use the destiny to help the others.

- The instant party feature allows you to use it *twice* on a single six-person group group at lvl10 (because nobody will ever use it to feed NPCs), so everyone has global bonuses bonuses per day and two chances of magic point gain. This is a bit overpowered.

- Apart from the teleport and upgrades identical to lvl7 version, lvl 10 doesn't provide anything unique.

Overall, at lvl 10, you have:
- A ship with an absurdly huge cargo hold (10 tons?), vastly superior to almost any boon.
- Potential multiple uses of instant party, for a global +1/+2/+3 bonus and multiple chances of magic points.
- Harpoons, doubling as master ponykinesis, at will, plus disengage to get out of fights (or get enemies out of fights, a combat advantage) once a day.
- Unlimited remote piloting, at a -10 penalty (trivial with DC reduction).
- Weaponry which can apparently beat into submission anything that isn't a dragon.
- A +10 bonus to persuasion (almost guaranteed to always be in effect if you're a half-decent roleplayer).
- 30 DC reduction to using the ship.
- A full-party (most PC groups are six members or less) daily teleport to gain access to all of the above in any situation, provided the ship is nearby or in sight (easily done with a remote). This also makes disengage a bit pointless.

The only real weakness I can see to this version is the lack of critical failure protection, which further complicates things for the party, pilot and the DM if it happens. A natural 1 during anything involving the airship is bound to cause incredible amounts of unwanted destruction/damage/hurt as it crashes/explodes spectacularly(it's similar to a critical failure when handling anything explosive).

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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:27 am

Zarhon wrote:
Azureink wrote:Ok, using your idea I have made this version:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AfKaeL7w3rF_PTVud1RHe65STyVheBNjb2ozFmgGCFs/edit#

What do you think?

Hrm... This version seems a bit overpowered. There aren't any weaknesses/limitations to it, whilst providing rather major advantages.

- Lvl 7 should allow only one feature to be pickable on the ship. It already upgrades the captain and cargo hold with a pinkie party, any more is too much.

- Weaponry is a useful-only-for-combat thing, without being in any way specified on how it actually works (stats, etc), and utilities/destinies in general don't give combat advantages. It also more or less serves as an excuse to wreak havoc on a DM's campaign via abusing it. It should be scrapped, remodeled to be less viable for terrorism/dickery, or replaced with a choice of an instant party cargo hold.

- The lvl 7 remote should have limitations on amount/duration of use, otherwise it can be easily, endlessly abused from the ground (e.g. boosting persuasion by threatening them with the airship from the ground, or just endlessly attacking a building from afar and at no danger to yourself if the ship is attacked).

- The lvl 10 teleport seems overpowered if it allows the whole party, especially with the guaranteed availability of the craft (thanks to the remote). It's a daily "get out of any trouble free" card. One person (presumably, the captain) should be teleportable, so they can then use the destiny to help the others.

- The instant party feature allows you to use it *twice* on a single six-person group group at lvl10 (because nobody will ever use it to feed NPCs), so everyone has global bonuses bonuses per day and two chances of magic point gain. This is a bit overpowered.

- Apart from the teleport and upgrades identical to lvl7 version, lvl 10 doesn't provide anything unique.

Overall, at lvl 10, you have:
- A ship with an absurdly huge cargo hold (10 tons?), vastly superior to almost any boon.
- Potential multiple uses of instant party, for a global +1/+2/+3 bonus and multiple chances of magic points.
- Harpoons, doubling as master ponykinesis, at will, plus disengage to get out of fights (or get enemies out of fights, a combat advantage) once a day.
- Unlimited remote piloting, at a -10 penalty (trivial with DC reduction).
- Weaponry which can apparently beat into submission anything that isn't a dragon.
- A +10 bonus to persuasion (almost guaranteed to always be in effect if you're a half-decent roleplayer).
- 30 DC reduction to using the ship.
- A full-party (most PC groups are six members or less) daily teleport to gain access to all of the above in any situation, provided the ship is nearby or in sight (easily done with a remote). This also makes disengage a bit pointless.

The only real weakness I can see to this version is the lack of critical failure protection, which further complicates things for the party, pilot and the DM if it happens. A natural 1 during anything involving the airship is bound to cause incredible amounts of unwanted destruction/damage/hurt as it crashes/explodes spectacularly(it's similar to a critical failure when handling anything explosive).


1) Fixed.
2) Removed Weaponry.
3) Made 2/day and increased the penalty if unable to see/locate to -15 to correspond with the bonus gained/It Is Almost Like Flying. And removed bonus to reductions in Level 10.
4) Changed the teleport to one willing creature.
5) Clarified the Instant Party ability to remove abuse.
6) Reduced cargo hold of Level 10 to six instead of ten tons (x2 that of Level 7 instead of x3.33).
7) Changed the Disengage of the Harpoons (which I got off your version) to affect only willing creatures.

What would you suggest I do to modify the Harpoons and/or Critical Failure Protection (which I think should be in Level 7) even more to make it balance with similar destinies?
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:49 am

I believe the setup for critical failure avoidance was to allow you to use "This is Whining" for checks involving repair and use of the airship, regardless of whether or not you actually have the utility talent.

Edit: For the Harpoons, what if we just removed the Disengage talent, and basically replaced it with Master ponykinesis? Say you have magic powered harpoons/ropes that, once per day, can allow the ship to act as though it were under the effect of Master Ponykinesis for, say, a minute.

This removes the whole issue of Disengage, a utility talent, functioning in combat, and hopefully by lowering the effects of Ponykinesis it will take a backseat to the other abilities (at the same time, when you have 10,000 lbs of force to work with, do you really need more than a minute?).
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:23 am

sunbeam wrote:I believe the setup for critical failure avoidance was to allow you to use "This is Whining" for checks involving repair and use of the airship, regardless of whether or not you actually have the utility talent.

Edit: For the Harpoons, what if we just removed the Disengage talent, and basically replaced it with Master ponykinesis? Say you have magic powered harpoons/ropes that, once per day, can allow the ship to act as though it were under the effect of Master Ponykinesis for, say, a minute.

This removes the whole issue of Disengage, a utility talent, functioning in combat, and hopefully by lowering the effects of Ponykinesis it will take a backseat to the other abilities (at the same time, when you have 10,000 lbs of force to work with, do you really need more than a minute?).
1) Modified to "you may reroll all natural 1s" when rolling to operate/repair your vessel.
2) Changed it to 2/day Master Ponykinesis for 1 minute for each use to correspond to the 2/day 10 minutes for each use of Remote Piloting, removing Disengage. Also Master Ponykinesis is 1,000 lbs.

Anything else you can think of?
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:19 am

Hm...It's hard to compare this to other destinies because no other destiny really gives you a big...thing...to go with it, so I'm just going to consider this from the racial point perspective. A destiny, if I remember correctly, should be the equivalent of 8 utility talents (2 at 4, 2 at 7, and 4 at 10, yah?), or 16 racial points (4 at 4, 4 at 7, 8 at 10). So, let's evaluate, ignoring the flat benefit of having a ship...

Level 4
-+4 bonus to a skill(as opposed to a situation), with small roleplaying restrictions. nearly equivalent to training in one skill. Worth 1 point.
Level bonus: 1 racial points
Current total: 1+skiff

Level 7
-An additional +2 bonus to a skill. combined with the bit we shaved off the top of the +4 bonus, nearly equivalent to training in one skill. worth 1 point.
-1 use of a 1/day utility talent, Instant Party. Worth 2 points.
and either
-2 uses per day of a magic talent, master Ponykinesis. I'm tempted to essentially treat this as spellchild, since that's how you would achieve this with racial points. Or Spellchild+utility talent. Worth 4-6 points. With the reduced time, which basically let's you use it for one function with each use, let's call it 4.
or
-Remote control. I don't honestly know how to price this, as it has to do with the airship again, and it will be obnoxiously useful at times and a touch pointless at others. As such, I'm just going to declare it equal to the harpoons. Worth 4 points.
Level bonus: 7
Current total: 8+frigate

Level 10
-Your other 4 point feature from level 7. Worth *drumroll* 4 points.
-Another +4 bonus to a single skill. Again, worth aproximately 1 point.
-That teleport ability. Wasn't this supposed to be keyed to the captain only? Being able to teleport up to a mile is about the equivalent of fast as lightning, when you think about it. Moving at 50 mi/s for 1 mile means you move for 1/50 sec, and take 1/50th of 1d20 damage, which is basically nothing. And it's once per day, while fast as lightning is magic. This difference is (very) approximately cancelled out by Fast as lightning's greater range and versatility, so they can be considered to be worth the same. Worth 2 points
Level bonus:7 points
Current total: 15+Galleon, or as I like to call it, schooner.

Hm...so in total the end result more or less works, and is, perhaps, slightly overpowered, depending on how much the ship is valued in the campaign. If you have the only airship in existence, then it's like ff6, and you have free, safe, travel everywhere, and you can pick your fights as you please, which is incredibly useful in an rpg, but perhaps less useful in a game like this, where sooner or later you have to lay anchor and help somebody. A solution to make the ship practically a 1 point thing is to explicitly state in the description that the ship must be something that is already commonly used in the setting, and not something that you invent. You simply move up in hardware. That way, your airship can still be attacked by sky pirates, and your boat can be attacked by regular pirates, and your tank can be attacked Mad Max style. Do that make sense?

The other issue is that if we treat the skiff as a 1 point racial (which it totally is, regardless of the uses of having a lightning-paced galleon later on), then the level 4 version of the destiny kind of sucks. The simplest fix to this, it seems to me, is to make the skiff have enough stores to use "Instant party" at level 4. Say that it's the beginning of the (near)extradimensional storage space, or something. That would really balance out the progression between level 4 and level 7, while still making level 7 feel more badass than level 4 by a longshot.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:27 am

sunbeam wrote:The other issue is that if we treat the skiff as a 1 point racial (which it totally is, regardless of the uses of having a lightning-paced galleon later on), then the level 4 version of the destiny kind of sucks. The simplest fix to this, it seems to me, is to make the skiff have enough stores to use "Instant party" at level 4. Say that it's the beginning of the (near)extradimensional storage space, or something. That would really balance out the progression between level 4 and level 7, while still making level 7 feel more badass than level 4 by a longshot.
Ok, I will add the Instant Party thing to Level 4.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:29 am

Other than that, do we have a consensus that the airship itself, with its ability to offer efficient transport from place to place (which I believe is its only function not designated by something else in my analysis), can be worth a steady 1 racial point? Because otherwise we might need to drop a feature...maybe dampen the reputation bonus...
EDIT: No, wait, there's also extradimensional storage...how much do people use that?
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:52 am

The reason for Reputation was to address the concerns everyone had regarding the character's personality as shaped by a destiny.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:10 pm

Oh, I know. I just think it would be the smoothest thing to dampen if we determine that the ship is too valuable on its own. The worth of a +10 bonus to one skill at all times can be aproximated with hex (-10 to all skills for one hour), or with 3 trainings, and each setup equals 3 racial points. (This is utterly pointless in this discussion, but it's what makes Dragon Disciple mathematically powerful, as you get +10 to an attribute, which is 3 skills, equalling 9 racial points.) It would be very easy to just dampen the skill bonus to by one racial point by capping it at +6, instead of +10. So at level 4 you would get a +2 bonus, and every new destiny level you would get an extra +2. Having said that, all of this is probably moot, as I don't think the airship itself, sans all the other talents it grants, is worth more than 1 racial point. I just want to be certain that the destiny won't be overpowered, and generally the best way to manage that (aside from actually testing it) is to open the forum to debate.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:32 pm

How about +3/5/8? So it goes Skill Training/Cutie Mark/ST+CM.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  sunbeam on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:18 pm

That definitely works mathematically if we break down the Cutie Mark trait into a +5 bonus (worth 1.3-1.5) and the capacity to CMC (worth .7-.5).
I think we could try either version, and submit it for play-testing soon. At least, I think it works that way.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

Post  Azureink on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:23 pm

Ok. I have made the +3/5/8 modification.
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Re: Master of Air, Land, and Sea

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