8 Point Template for races

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  LoganAura on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:27 am

Thunderborn essentially let you send out lightning from your mouth at any Voltage, high or low (Probably normally high) at any amount
Frostborn would've allowed you to essentially freeze over anything in front of you
Acidborn essentially made you able to spit out a shit-ton of corrosive substance without any limits.

All the nerfs are doing is limiting what the lightning/frost/acid can do down to about the same level as fireborn.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:16 pm

1) Great feedback everyone. This is coming along very well.

2) Awesome Hayatecooper. Special Little Monster was a lot of fun to write. =)

3) I almost gave thunderborn to Hippogriffs. The reason I didn't was because when I went to copy it in, I realized that it allowed people to throw literal lightningbolts out of their mouths. Seriously, the old version let you just throw full-scale lightningbolts at people without DM intervention. The version currently in the docs was a quick partial-fix that I did (changing "lightningbolts with the exact properties of normal lightning" to, "small bursts of electricity" - which at least hints that it isn't supposed to let you call down the wrath of the gods). It's still not perfect though, so I tossed together a new trait based on the original "5 charges of electricity" design that the original designer of the race submitted. I'd be happy to change it to Thunderborn once we get that one more worked out.

4) Will definitely clarify true shifter.

5) Pegasai are still the biggest problem. They might have just as many goodies as the other races, but they don't *look* as cool as them. Perhaps they'd look pretty cool to new players though - we might just be so used to the pegasai having flight and weathercrafting and such that this modest 2 point upgrade is hard to be impressed by. I still think we can come up with something that *looks* more dramatic than the better-than-awesomeness though. We considered Razor Wing (the original flavor of Sunderblade) but that doesn't seem like something all pegasai should be able to do.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  A1C Bronymous on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:51 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
5) Pegasai are still the biggest problem. They might have just as many goodies as the other races, but they don't *look* as cool as them. Perhaps they'd look pretty cool to new players though - we might just be so used to the pegasai having flight and weathercrafting and such that this modest 2 point upgrade is hard to be impressed by. I still think we can come up with something that *looks* more dramatic than the better-than-awesomeness though. We considered Razor Wing (the original flavor of Sunderblade) but that doesn't seem like something all pegasai should be able to do.

I have a suggestion for something that more or less fits the show lore- though its probably not too balanced yet- for that extra thing.

2- Built for Speed OR Grace and Agility
Some Pegasi are fast and strong, and some are graceful and agile. Add 1 point to either Athletics or Precision, whichever is higher (unless it would exceed 10, then it is added to the other.) Every 3rd level (3, 6, 9) add one more attribute to the higher number.

The way I see it, this gives the primary bonus of one extra point at creation (which may make for a more specialized or a more balanced spread, depending on how the character is built) over the other races, and the extra 3 points, which are balanced out by having to wait for them. Unicorns and EPs still get instant gratification of course, but at least Pegasi will even the score over time.

This could also be formatted into four separate GE traits:

Built for Power
Members of your race are physically adept. Add 1 point to your Athletics score (unless this would exceed 10, then add it to any other attribute). At every third level (3, 6, 9), add one more attribute point to your Athletics score.

Lithe Form
Members of your race are naturally more nimble and dexterous. Add 1 point to your Precision score (unless this would exceed 10, then add it to any other attribute). At every third level (3, 6, 9), add one more attribute point to your Precision score.

Of the Mind
Members of your race are naturally more nimble and dexterous. Add 1 point to your Knowledge score (unless this would exceed 10, then add it to any other attribute). At every third level (3, 6, 9), add one more attribute point to your Knowledge score.

Commonly Sensible
Members of your race are naturally more nimble and dexterous. Add 1 point to your Horse-Sense score (unless this would exceed 10, then add it to any other attribute). At every third level (3, 6, 9), add one more attribute point to your Horse-Sense score.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:08 pm

If you took all four of those they'd be better than Best of the Breed for the points spent. Heck, you could take two of em and come out with one more point than Best of the Breed. Also I find that a lot more bland than Stubborness (though I still have no idea why anyone has a problem with it).

Also, I just dislike the idea that you're telling a race "these are the stats you care about".
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:11 pm

It's not that Stubberness is bad... Jsut that it doesn't look so awesome when one looks at the cool upgrades the other races get...

Then again... Why do Zebra's get nothing on this update? I mean that's just plain odd...
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:18 pm

I hadn't noticed that. Why did Bridal Gossip go from 4 points to 6? They would have been a pretty good candidate for a race that gets an extra Utility that didn't seem odd or bland.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:20 pm

I gotta agree with Ramsus here... They got mystic Zebra training... So extra utility make sense.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  LoganAura on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:22 pm

It boosted from 3/day to 5/day AND is now anyone, not just the Zebra.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  A1C Bronymous on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:24 pm

Ramsus wrote:If you took all four of those they'd be better than Best of the Breed for the points spent. Heck, you could take two of em and come out with one more point than Best of the Breed. Also I find that a lot more bland than Stubborness (though I still have no idea why anyone has a problem with it).

Also, I just dislike the idea that you're telling a race "these are the stats you care about".

You'd also be wasting all of you allotted racial points on Attribiute points that you don't actually get til much later. Anyone who takes all four of these instead of just one (maybe two) and then fill out with other useful things is kind of dumb.

Having a Pegasus choose Precision or Athletics is directly inspired by dialogue from The Best Young Fliers Competition. Some Pegasi are stunt fliers, some are ballerinas. You could have them choose from one of the four, but Knowledge and Horse sense don't relate to flying.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:27 pm

Bridle Gossip was already 5/Day. However, as Logan mentions - it was changed to be a bonus you could toss onto *anyone*. You could let an ally roll thrice and choose the best as well as yourself - which significantly expands the features's versatility. However, I might up it to 6/day anyway. If you're rhyming like that, you deserve it.

Oh, and we definitely don't want to make one race better at athletics or precision than other races. That's kind of the core of our racial design philosophy.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:37 pm

Ah, I figured it was something like that that I just failed to notice. If it's basically all they're getting, yeah 6/Day would be nice. Though a lower cost version would still be nice for people who want to do other things too. Maybe one that did it 2/Day and cost 2 points? (Wait... I've just introduced a pricing scheme for this thing that'd basically be 1 point per Daily usage. I'm not sure if that'd be a good or bad thing.)
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  A1C Bronymous on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:55 pm

Your concept of racial equality in this system is baffling. Two ways to achieve balance- give everyone the exact same stuff, or give each race an advantage unique to them that measures up against the unique advantages of the others. EPs and Unicorns have those advantages, Pegasi do not.

Its not even about being better at Prtecision or Athletics than the other races. If someone wants to play a bookworm Pegasus and put all their points into the other Attributes, then that's fine. But by being a Pegasus they are naturally predisposed to the nuance and skill of flight (#flavoring to make it seem right), so instead of 5 Athletics and 5 Precision, they have 5 and 6. And then that 6 becomes 7, 7 becomes 8, and by the time they've almost reached max level, they are then on par with more talented Ponies Physically. Meanwhile, an EP or Unicorn in the same party can start with a 10, and not add any points to it, and still be beating that Pegasus who peaks at 9.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Paper Shadow on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:18 pm

Bronymous wrote:Your concept of racial equality in this system is baffling. Two ways to achieve balance- give everyone the exact same stuff, or give each race an advantage unique to them that measures up against the unique advantages of the others. EPs and Unicorns have those advantages, Pegasi do not.

Its not even about being better at Prtecision or Athletics than the other races. If someone wants to play a bookworm Pegasus and put all their points into the other Attributes, then that's fine. But by being a Pegasus they are naturally predisposed to the nuance and skill of flight (#flavoring to make it seem right), so instead of 5 Athletics and 5 Precision, they have 5 and 6. And then that 6 becomes 7, 7 becomes 8, and by the time they've almost reached max level, they are then on par with more talented Ponies Physically. Meanwhile, an EP or Unicorn in the same party can start with a 10, and not add any points to it, and still be beating that Pegasus who peaks at 9.
Maybe, but it passively encourages you to build a Precision or Athletics Brawn character because you are going to get bonuses in them. If you don't, then you may feel that you are wasting racial points...

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:24 pm

I think it more has to deal with flawed Flight System then other racials Bronyomous... The flight system demands that you put those points in either brawn or precision. So you could get one alright flight skill. The more I think about it I think the way the flight utiltiy tree is build is way to limiting for everyone.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:30 pm

Bronymous wrote:Your concept of racial equality in this system is baffling. Two ways to achieve balance- give everyone the exact same stuff, or give each race an advantage unique to them that measures up against the unique advantages of the others. EPs and Unicorns have those advantages, Pegasi do not.

It's not for reasons of balance that we make sure that a maximized pegasus isn't better at precision than a maximized unicorn, it's to avoid the problems that come along when you make some races "the precison classes" and some races "the brawn classes" and some races the knowledge and so on. If one race, for example, gats a +1 bonus to knowledge... Suddenly every character that's meant to be a powerful mage is *playing sub-optimally* if they don't take that race. This encourages running stereotypes and gets in the way of people wanting to run their favorite roleplaying concepts - like warforged druids and halfling barbarians. We just get a parade of elven druids and half-orc barbarians.

Now, technically giving a race free training in a specific skill doesn't encourage those builds (because they can't stack it higher than someone else's training) but it still focuses peoples' minds on that being the race meant to be good at that, so we still try to avoid it.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  tygerburningbright on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:38 pm

Rebuilding the flight system would solve quite a few problems...
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:38 pm

Rebuilding it how?
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  tygerburningbright on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:44 pm

I would say either making it open to more types of rolls or altering the flight tree to something like
almost -3
flight 0
school +3
chaser +6
ace +9
no clue on if this is any good.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:48 pm

Yeah the problem with the flight tree system is that it gives you horrible flight rolls unless you put everything into a flight skill and put everything into all the utilities needed to fly. Just it takes to much to even brake even with the Flight system.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  LoganAura on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:11 pm

Viable options for flight:
Athletics, Acrobatics, Endurance, Mechanics?, Arcana?, Perception?

Other things I don't really know.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:36 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Yeah the problem with the flight tree system is that it gives you horrible flight rolls unless you put everything into a flight skill and put everything into all the utilities needed to fly. Just it takes to much to even brake even with the Flight system.

This I think is a misconception. After all, what's the walking DC? There isn't one. You only need to make checks while walking if you're trying something extremely challenging - like doing backflips and lifting boulders. Likewise, anyone with, "It's Almost Like Flying" can fly just fine. It's only fi they attempt aerial acrobatics or doing rainbow-dash-level-things like picking up things and flying away with them - or smashing them mid-flight - that you need to start making checks... And then it takes someone that specializes in flying to do it well.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:31 pm

Hmmm, my issues with the Flight tree are not the penalties or what skills it uses. Mostly it's how much of your Utilities it takes up to do one thing decently when almost all other Utility functions require only a single Utility to function decently. It would be very simple to shorten the Flight three down to two or three Utilities.

For three: Utility 1) Can fly at -10 Penalty. Utility 2) -5 Penalty. Utility 3) No Penalty + Hover.

For two: Utility 1) Can fly at -10 Penalty. Utility 2) No Penalty + Hover.

Edit: I strongly prefer the just 2 Utilities version considering once again that other Utility functions typically only require a single Utility to do so well.

Q: What no +5 to Lockpicking while hovering a single inch above the ground? What madness is this!?
A: As I've stated other places, always on passive bonuses to skill/abilities that aren't available to everyone equally aren't doing anything to help the system function well. (A more in depth look at my point about this can be found in the Talent Specialization thread where I basically viewed that we could fix that problem with the removal of, I believe, only four Utility talents and adding in several others for other skills so that all skills have equal support.)

Q: Why do you not care what skills flight uses?
A: Because all types of actions have to use some kind of skill to do them. Physical acts are what Brawn and Precision are for. Even if you're causing yourself to fly via magic, you aren't casting a spell to cause some outside force to control you as you fly. Your ability to control your flight still logically falls under Athletics or Acrobatics. Endurance would be fine for not being pushed by high winds or maintaining lengthy flight but, it still wouldn't make sense to use it for stunts and bursts of speed.

Q: Ok what about Weather-Crafting?
A: Good question. I think Weather-Crafting should be changed so that you don't suffer penalties from things like flying and Arcana should be added in as a way to do it. That way you have people using it in the air and on the ground equally well and doing so in ways that make sense.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Nehiel Mori on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:36 am

So were talking about the Flight tree right now and both me and Dan are heavily considering Ramsus suggestion of cutting the flight tree down to 3 talents. If so, we are also just thinking about giving Pegasi the top rank of flying right off the bat. The new top rank wouldn't have flying ace, it would follow Ramsus's suggestion of "1) Can fly at -10 Penalty. 2) -5 Penalty. 3) No Penalty + Hover."
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:38 am

Absolutely. As long as you can't get a potent +5 bonus to such checks like lockpicking while flying - you won't have to have the huge pre-req penalty. And then pegasai could just start with a more potent version of flying (like only -5, or maybe even no penalty at all if we don't add another 2 point racial ability).


Last edited by Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Paper Shadow on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:39 am

Nooooooooooooooo...

How will I make my Stealth Master now?

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