8 Point Template for races

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:55 am

If you're going with the 3 Utility version then keeping Pegasi starting with Flight (-5) would probably be ideal since you wouldn't have to change anything as far as races/GE goes. (Aside from the numbers.)

@Paper Shadow: Well by being good at Stealth? Keep in mind that lower potentially hit target numbers means GMs should lower high difficultly DCs for such. So not have a +5 bonus to Stealth from out of nowhere just means that the "insane super stealth" thing you did just has a lower DC to hit to go along with your lower bonus to Stealth. (Of course it's a bit more complicated than that and you can't really count on GMs to factor that sort of thing in all the time but, then again you couldn't count on them factoring in the +5 bonus in the first place so that just evens itself out.)

Also, I'm going to make a thread sometime later tonight (I hope) dedicated to giving proper support for all the skills. It also may randomly address weather-crafting as well.

Hopefully having a thread dedicated to that will allow us to stop derailing this thread (as important as that discussion and ideas are... kinda the wrong place for em).
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Philadelphus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:35 am

I highly approve of pegasi starting with the ability to hover. After all, Fluttershy does it quite a bit, and she's specifically shown/stated to have been a poor flyer. True, she may have improved since then, but there are any number of background ponies doing it too (try watching Winter Wrap Up and counting), and it slightly stretches belief that every single one of them is an absolute master of flight.

Basically, it seems like a pretty common pegasus ability, and should probably not require the pinnacle of flight to achieve. I mean, is the ability to hover actually that powerful mechanically? I'd argue it's really more of a flavor thing (though one I obviously feel strongly about Smile ).

Also, I like the -10/-5/0 suggestion, whether pegasi start with -5 or 0. And perhaps for those who really liked their +5 bonus (or just those who like flying in general), we could come up with some new talents:

Flying Ace – 3/day
Preparation time: 5 seconds
You gain a +7 bonus to your next Athletics or Acrobatics skill check involving flying.

Wonderbolt Cadet - 5/day
Preparation time: 5 seconds
On your next Athletics or Acrobatics check involving flying, you may reroll natural ones.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:40 am

This seems like a great revamp.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:21 am

I like the Wonderbolt Cadet one. There's nothing wrong with your idea for Flying Ace except that it conflicts a bit with something I'm going to suggest in my new thread. (Or rather would stack weird/unfairly on top of.)
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Zarhon on Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:51 am

While we're on the subject of flight, will there be anything done about ponykinesis and its related utilities? In order to have a "full" grasp of ponykinesis, you need to invest in 4 talents total (not counting a racial), of which two talents are incredibly weak and limited to situations where you either can use them, or can't, with no skill checks to interject. Flight talents allow you to put your "skills" to the test and allow rolls as such, but with ponykinesis, it's set in stone whether you have any ability to lift objects: Either you can (and still probably have to roll for something complex), or you outright can't.

- Ponykinesis, on its own, is almost completely worthless. It is too weak to be used for anything even remotely "heavy", which limits its use to remotely picking up objects. Skill checks are invalidated automatically due to the set weight limit (compare with flight, which, even with a penalty, at least *allows* you to try something that would be difficult), which makes its range of uses crippled: Either you can levitate that object, or you cant.

- Precise Ponykinesis simply doesn't make sense as a separate talent from regular ponykinesis: Both Rarity and Twilight showed the ability to manipulate multiple objects simultaneously, why would you need an entire separate talent, just for this (very minor) "upgrade"? The talent is further crippled by the weight limit outright crippling what you can carry, as it requires a combined weight for all objects, rather than on a per-object basis. This talent would make sense being combined as a regular feature of "ponykinesis".

- As separate talents, Ponykinesis and Precise Ponykinesis take up two utility slots to give you the telekinesis power of a weak toddler, leaving you reliant on the DM providing ample objects under 25 lbs for you to use, if you ever want to see a use of these talents.

- Advanced ponykinesis is pretty much the norm for any character that wants to RELIABLY use ponykinesis for anything remotely related to an action scene: It's weight limit is high enough for manipulation of most common objects and its time limit is non-restrictive. The talent seems weak, however, considering the fact that it appears to be a "norm" for unicorns in the show (Rarity, Twilight). It also suffers from requiring a minute prep time to achieve in a high-stress situation, and no specifics on how well, or if, it can be used on a pony-sized creature for flight/body levitation purposes.

- Master ponykinesis is very powerful - certainly fit the show usage, and requires a magic point in turn. This one is probably the only balanced of the ponykinesis talents.


TLDR:
- Ponykinesis and precise ponykinesis are too weak, unreliable to be worth taking or wasting utility slots on.
- Ponykinesis, precise ponykinesis, advanced ponykinesis seem more like "the norm" of unicorns in the show, rather than an option.
- All forms of ponykinesis are crippled by the set weight limits
- All forms of ponykinesis are crippled by the inability to roll any type of checks to circumvent the above limit, whilst paradoxally allowing or encouraging checks for successfully performing within the set weight limit (meaning, even when you can do something, you can still fail on a bad roll).
- There isnt any norm for using ponykinesis on creatures, liquids, or similar ill-defined, weight-relative targets, as well as the range of ability with each (e.g. using it for "flight").
- Ponykinesis in general not matching "natural" abilities of the unicorns in the show (they act like they have advanced and precise ponykinesis as an at-will)

My ideas on how to fix ponykinesis would be:

- Remove ponykinesis outright, and provide its at-will benefits to advanced ponykinesis, as well as keeping its daily power.
- Combine Ponykinesis and Precise Ponykinesis into a singular talent, increase the weight limit, allow weight for multi objects to be on a per-object basis.
- Make Ponykinesis have 3 objects manipulation on a shared weight, whilst precise ponykinesis puts the weight at a per-object basis and allows 10+ object manipulation
- Remove the weight limits outright, and replace them with a skill check rolling / penalty / bonus system, to define the limits on a per-character/performance basis.
- Define some of the more iffy ponykinesis "targets" (yourself, other creatures, self-floating, immobilization, strength vs magic, mental power versus physical)
- Clearly define range of skills useable for ponykinesis (or "magic"), or provide a singular skill, determined by the player at character creation, that will be used for ponykinesis checks (e.g. mechanics, in the flavoring of a levitation ray, or arcana for magic...)
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:33 am

Absolutely great comments. Thus 8 point race revamp is going to snowball into readdressing some of the original utility talents too. This is excellent. Cool
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:36 am

lol yeah, good job us. Asking for an update and then as soon as it gets close to happening going "wait! stop the presses! more work first!" =P

But, seriously, probably better to get this stuff fixed before moving forward on this I suppose. Anyway my thread about skill equality is up now in the Utility section.

Edit: And I agree with Zarhon that PK needs to be better. I especially like the idea about Precise PK making it a change from X weight divided amongst things as you choose to X much weight for 10 objects + your normal weight limit divided equally.

I think it'd be easiest to make it basically just be letting you make Arcana rolls to lift things equivalently to Athletics. Maybe limit Ponykinesis to small objects. And then the upgrade for Advanced Ponykinesis is large objects and getting a +10 bonus to the check 2/Day?

Edit 2: However self-levitation works out, it should be at best awkward. Maybe not necessarily slow. (CMC? Oops catapulted myself. Hope I land in some hay.)
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Philadelphus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:41 am

Ramsus wrote:I think it'd be easiest to make it basically just be letting you make Arcana rolls to lift things equivalently to Athletics. Maybe limit Ponykinesis to small objects.
I'm personally against the idea of just having it being a flat Arcana roll across the board, because then you introduce the chance of failure to every attempt you make at manipulating stuff. I like not having to worry about that while using Ponykinesis. But I can also see the other side of the argument, where maybe you want to attempt to lift something heavier than the nominal limit. Perhaps both? Give Ponykinesis a weight limit of 25 pounds, where anything below that is 'trivial', and doesn't need to be rolled, but you can roll with Arcana to attempt weights above that, with the DC going up by 5 for every 10 pounds of attempted weight. Or something like that. Just an idea.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Z2 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:58 pm

With Ponykinesis I'd be willing to settle for three versions:

Ponykinesis - same old racial, but without a set weight limit; instead usable on anything a pony could logically physically carry with ease. Possibly utilizing their arcana/athletics attribute as a sort of 'baseline' to what 'easy to carry' means. I'm all for extra clarity most of the time, but I think being 'the kind of thing you could just grab' is intuitive enough to allow some freedom of definition. Also allow lifting multiple objects under the limit, so long as they move as one; i.e. hold four books, so long as all of them are just being moved to the left.

Precise Ponykinesis - Control Up to X different objects with precision, so long as each individual object is vulnerable to your ponykinesis : that way it still allows for some specialization, but also ups the power some.

Master Ponykinesis - Same old magic point talent, just with a potentially much greater weight limit. Oh, and only this one would allow self-levitation, or that of other ponies.

With Flight, I'm okay with the many versions we still have, but Still think some restructuring may be in order:

It's Almost Like Flying : -15
Flight : -7
Flight School: 0 + H
Cloud Chaser: +5 + H
Flying Ace: +10 + H

With each successive utility being slightly less powerful than the last, it's easier to justify making larger profits from the first few upgrades. Being 'competence neutral' after flight school makes a lot of logical sense; and for those of us who even now consider it worthwhile to commit to flight, the higher max bonus seems like a nice plus.

Those are just some adjustments I'd consider mind you, thought I'd get them out and about.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:28 pm

@Phil: *sigh* How is it that you think you could possibly fail a roll to lift something that's 25 pounds? That's not even heavy enough for Athletics to require a roll. The entire point of letting you roll is so that you have a chance of lifting things that are heavier than that.

@Z2: The problem with Flight wasn't that it didn't give you enough unfair advantage over everyone who didn't fly. It was that it took up 5 talents and... gave you an unfair advantage over everyone who didn't fly. Last I checked, that was going to be addressed (it was mentioned here even).

Edit: That thread I said I'd make is up. Has been since last night actually.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Z2 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:04 pm

@Ramsus
And I posted my notes on flight because I think it makes a nice middle point for those who want 2-3 talents that sum up proper flying without absurd penalties; AND those who want to forgo extra utilities for a blunt mechanical advantage. If it takes them FIVE utility talents to get, then I very much doubt that it is an ~UN~fair advantage. There are flight specialists, whose skills lie in being able to punch and stealth and craft machinery in three dimensions; as penalty for their actions they don't get to cast wacky spells, and I am more than happy with the theory behind that.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:07 pm

But, it is unfair. Nobody else can get bonuses like that. And they shouldn't. Specializing like that actively harms everyone's ability to diversify and have it be a good choice to do so. Your idea makes the existing problems worse, not better.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  LoganAura on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:27 pm

Ramsus, it isn't unfair because people use 5 utilities to get there. You're sort of missing how people are specializing, which in itself is a way to be diverse.

You're sort of missing the point as to /why/ it's worth five utilities. And yes, they get the flat mechanical bonuses- but everyone else who doesn't pick those utilities get wacky magic, or bonuses to stealthiness, or the ability to blast someone with a laughter rod twice, or a second magic point, or a huge bonus.

Yes, no one else gets that /flat/ bonus. However the rest of the utilities are for many different things. The stat boost may be a flat measurement, but the others are a bit less rigidly good.

Five utilities for a +5 to 5 different stats compared too the following:

Less Rigid Bonuses: Create Crazy Contraption, Derp, Double the Fun, Instant Party, and Twitchy Tail
The ability to create a MASSIVE device twice a day, or fire off 4 shots of Laughter, maybe even more if Instant Party gives you a nat 20, and a question to the DM.

Flat bonuses, Derp, Stare, Yee-haw, Nimble Hooves, Medical Training.
That's a 20 to Stunts, Persuasion, and Endurance (2/day for 2 of these), 3/day +10 to Heal and Mechanics. for the same amount of utilities.


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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:29 pm

Naturally, five utilities for the +5 bonus is pretty reasonable.

However, it also requires us to make even normal flying take up *lots* of pre-reqs, so if you want to just fly without penalties you have to sink in almost as many utility talents.

If we get rid of the ability to grab a +5 bonus, we can make the pre-reqs to flying without a penalty far fewer. So, people who want to just max their Brawn or Precision (kind of weird that the best people of that *have* to be flying in order to get their stats maxed) can take other things - while people who actually want to fly don't have to take as many pre-reqs.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:42 pm

*sigh* You're entirely missing the point Logan. Passive always on bonuses to skills on top of training and CMs basically only serve to raise the DCs for any action and separate the ability for the party to work at the same tasks equally. That setup means fliers are better at Brawn and Precision than everyone else. Massively better at +10 in fact. That's enough to basically say anyone who doesn't fly shouldn't even bother trying to be good at those two Abilities. Two out of four I point out.

Specialization of this sort is always where a game system gets it's non-combat stuff thrown out of balance. If you give people the option to specialize in a flat number bonuses way, that makes all other ways of doing things less effective. You're replacing the system of diversity with one of inferiority for those who diversify and superiority for those who specialize.

This isn't about if it's fair for me to buy X compared to you buying Y. It's about what this does to the system as a whole. If it's just fliers who get this option to specialize like this, it's unfair. There's not even any way to argue that. If you fly you have +10 more to 2 out of 4 stats compared to everyone else? Sure, you can take other Utilities but... what if you took Stealth Mode and Nimble Hooves? Now you're just flat out inferior to the guy with flying in every possible way. But that's not even the big problem. The big problem is when people try to solve this unfairness by giving everyone the option for those same passive bonuses to stuff. Then we end up with a mess of who can and can't get the bonuses to the skills they want and specialization is the only way to ever be able to hit DCs for anything you're supposed to be good at. Additionally it also creates a game where the party is in fact a group of solo specialists who basically take turns playing as nobody else is capable of accomplishing anything anyone else is good at unless they get a nat 20. If you mix a group of specialists and non-specialists, the specialists only really do anything at all when their specialty comes up and the non-specialists basically have to stop playing any time the specialists' things come up. Or worse, can't meet any DCs at all because GMs are now factoring in people's ability to specialize when they determine their DCs. Afterall it'd be unfair of the GM to make the specialists' choice to specialize mean nothing by making only their DCs higher. So you then have either the specialists auto-passing at the thing they're good at all the time or you have everyone else failing at everything all the time because if they didn't specialize the base DCs for things are just too high for them to reliably hit.

Edit: Got ninja'd by Dan who had a good point too.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:11 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:while people who actually want to fly don't have to take as many pre-reqs.

I still don't understand WHY the prereqs are so necessary. Stripping out the +5 for a moment, why does it make sense that any given pegasus is weak flier (-10) unless they really train at it? You brought up checks and walking vs flying earlier, and said you don't have to make checks for just doing it, only when things happen. But when those things do happen, suddenly the Pegasus is at a disadvantage to everyone else. The Pegasus gets a -10 to dodge falling rocks, while those on the ground get no penalty. The Pegasus gets a -10 to Endurance for flying for an hour up the side of a mountain, while the rest who are climbing get no penalty. UNLESS the pegasus has taken the extra necessary talents to break even, in which case they're still at a 2 slot disadvantage to the others.

And you know how in my suggestion for Attributes, I had them pick ONE or the OTHER? Athletics or Precision- a pegasus is naturally good at one or the other. The same could go for these Flight talents. Have them choose which one to upgrade, or offer other talents to balance them out. Make them start at 0 for one, and -10 for the other. That at least keeps them from "dominating" both Attributes in the party.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:14 pm

There's a mechanical reason and a story reason.

1) Flying is *extremely useful*. You get to ignore lava pits, cliffs, falling, walls... All sorts of things. Without a penalty of some kind too, you can even carry other people and spread the benefits to a group. At-will flight is worth more than one utility talent.

2) Some flavor aspects.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:25 pm

"Flavoring aspects", as in I'm an Earth Pony with clockwork wings? That ties in to the question I just posted in the other thread. I feel like, if you use GE to tear down and rebuild an already established race, then you should suffer some penalties to the effects. For example, instead of allowing a mechwinged EP to take Flight at -10 (as it is now, should still be changed), they should have to take IALF at -15. And so on. Also, Any Utility talents taken that mimic the effects of racials should always be less effective. But those are just some flavoring based pet peeves of mine.

That said, if you come up with your own original race, then no penalties as such.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:48 pm

I completely disagree Bronymous. To the point of needing to refrain myself from comment about how I truthfully feel about that concept and the kind of thinking that's involved to get anywhere close to expressing it and suggesting it as a sound idea. Suffice it to say that it's mechanically unsound to do so and generally mean spirited as it simply punishes people for not agreeing with the default build idea for something.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  LoganAura on Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:00 pm

Bronymous wrote:a mechwinged EP to take Flight at -10 (as it is now, should still be changed), they should have to take IALF at -15.

That's what the 1 point racial one is for. People seem to glance over it.

And I sort of agree with Ramsus. If someone (like you) don't think people should alter pre-existing races then that's what the baseline races are for.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Philadelphus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:28 pm

Ramsus wrote:@Phil: *sigh* How is it that you think you could possibly fail a roll to lift something that's 25 pounds? That's not even heavy enough for Athletics to require a roll. The entire point of letting you roll is so that you have a chance of lifting things that are heavier than that.
Because if you have to roll, you have a 5% (or 15% with Derp) chance of critical failure each time. I don't think you should be able to fail for easy stuff like that, which is why I suggested the 25 pound limit I did – although perhaps "limit" is the wrong word, perhaps "boundary" would be more appropriate – so that you could automatically move stuff weighing less than it, while still having the option of rolling to lift heavier stuff. I just don't want to see it changed to "make an Arcana roll every time you want to mentally pick up your mug and take a drink", with the attendant chance of critical failure. It would probably be amusing the first time you spill your hot drink all over yourself. But not fun, at least for me.

I agree with your point about rolling for heavier things, I just want to make sure that the little things aren't a casualty of war any changes. Smile

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Ramsus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:37 pm

Ah, ok. Yes, it would be good if it was clear that things that are 25 pounds or under wouldn't require a roll to lift.
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Philadelphus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:09 pm

Yeah, that's all I was trying to say. Smile I do like the idea of letting people attempt to lift heavier things with a variable chance of succes.

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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Zarhon on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:10 pm

@ Brony: I think the issue with flight having a penalty is the fact that, realistically, flight *IS* incredibly complex, and would be outright impossible if it weren't for the "cartoon logic" rule - dodging that boulder whilst flying would require a sideways-movement, which requires your non-ground-supported wings to flap with enough power to propel you out of the way (as opposed to the grounded ones, who jump/roll), which in turn requires your knowledge/physical ability to perform with your wings. Remember how that hummingbird plummeted after wing-bumping RD? That would be the equivalent of every flight check. The real issue is the fact that the racial pick assumes that all those with the weakest flight level have no decent flight capabilities (despite this being a part of their body that they likely used daily and would passively gain the experience/skill in it, similar to learning to walk) - it seems more like something that "beginner flyers" default with (e.g. a person with newly-made mechwings and no experience), or an outright flaw (Fluttershy, with her crippling phobias stunting her flight trainings), so it doesn't make sense that every pegasus is like that.

Currently, the best display of the weakest flight level in the show would be Fluttershy, and we've seen her fly and float carelessly through multitude of episodes, but struggle when her flight capabilities are actually required for a physical or straining task (carrying Twilight, wings closing from phobia, several near-fatal flaws, hurricane fluttershy, pulling a balloon and chasing ). I think the deal with their flight penalties is that they have to roll whenever they do something that wouldn't translate as "walking", whilst in mid flight. Fluttershy flies just fine, so long as she's not under pressure or doing the equivalent of a jog.

Another way of seeing this would be with driving: Fluttershy would be the slow-driving, safe driver, who rarely gets into stress situations, but once a quick-thinking emergency situation occurs (in other words, a skill check), would likely panic and have an accident/crash, out of inexperience with such situations. RD would be the 200mph driver with lightning-quick reflexes, who, despite getting into a load of dangerous situations constantly due to risks, is skilled enough avoid them, thus profiting with speedy transport.

In regards to ponykinesis vs flight: In my opinion, flight is the set of talents that let you use the "jock", "acrobat" or "muscle-pony" archetype to achieve your goals with your own athletic abilities - most usually performed with speed or acrobatic stunts in mind, as well as the natural ability to bypass obstacles by using all three dimensions when moving.

Ponykinesis seems like it should be an extension/other side of the coin of this, using a "magician" or "thinker" archetype to achieve either subtle, complicated (high-precision), or "raw power" actions, using your mental abilities. The advantage here being three dimensional movement, but without your own "direct" interaction.

As for what Ramsus mentioned, I think replacing "weights" with "sizes" would be ideal (most of the "talent show" talents use this "limiter", and it makes sense), since it's easier to imagine (or picture) the size of an object rather than the weight: Having ponykinesis easily act for objects smaller than you is perfectly logical. Advanced ponykinesis would probably translate to objects of same or slightly larger size than you, and master ponykinesis would probably limit it to "full-grown dragon sized".

Of course, here comes the issue of how objects that are small and heavy (e.g. dark matter balls) would be treated. I assume a roll would be applied in such a manner, using your "physical" or "mental" power to apply it.

As for what checks could be used for ponykinesis, I think a mixture of Streetwise (flavor - using literal "smoke and mirrors" tricks, or having non-obvious, discreet help/helpers in doing your "magic"), Arcana (magic), Mechanics (understanding and method of bending the laws of physics), and endurance (mental/physical fortitude for powering ponykinesis spells) would make sense.

Speaking of ponykinesis power, we've seen twilight levitate herself during the "falling down stairs" moment of season 3 episode 2, as well as previously seen her lift RD by the tail. Wouldn't that translate to advanced ponykinesis? I think carrying ponies should be the upper limit of advanced ponykinesis, provided its use is limited to "very slow levitation". The whole aspect of making ponies fly/float is made non-OP by the fact that any winged pony/creature can do so anyway (even those with crappy flight, provided they are careful or take it slow, as evidenced by Fluttershy).


Last edited by Zarhon on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

Post  Z2 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:16 pm

Rather than argue theory, I'm just going to make another suggestion:

It's almost like flying - move through the air with a -10 penalty

Flying - Fly with no penalty, but unable to hover and a -10 penalty returns for trying to work while ridden/carrying something

Trained Flight - Fly with no penalties, freely and equally capable while burdened (obviously the act of CATCHING a rider would still require something)

Wing Commander - +15 Bonus to a single skill when using your wings.

So we have: The chintzy ability that allows aerial movement with annoying penalties. (some random potion thing for creatures with no business flying)
Basic flight, no penalties but difficult to apply beyond the ability holder's movements. (Fluttershy)
Trained Flight, the extra harmonious version that makes the flyer more skilled at carrying allies hovering and just all around applying it often. (Regular but properly trained Pegasi)
And Wing Commander - The potent mechanical bonus for the specialists among us, more potent than ever, and still requiring 4 abilities; but no longer a blanket reward to a full half of the skills. (Rainbow Dash)

With Wing Commander I think it could work out reasonably well, even down to +10 I could see it as good. I also tried to note that it would be 'using your wings' so there doesn't have to be random hovering: a pegasus mechanic could just use his wing dextrously, or a ninja hiding behind his, or a diplomat fluffing them out to look oh so nice.

The difference between Flight and Trained Flight could probably use some work, but hopefully this is at least an approximation of a good compromise?
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Re: 8 Point Template for races

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