Disharmony level up Supplement

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Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:39 am

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11bH882uas3j2rMql_Q7zuyypoyfdj4h-L_M9sUt3bv0/edit - Full doc with all reflavoured stuff
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V7nqHQShbj6sOQ0tQlHqt6CwQsw9wLFFX-yaSK2gOBg/edit - Document with just new stuff, Elements and Destinies

The above links to my newly created very unofficial Disharmony Supplement. Basically I wanted to design a way for players to play evil or at least less nice characters without costing the other characters harmony; as well as to be be able to have the following:
A. A separate exp system(Which was sort of completed)
B. Be able to pick more chaotic based elements (Thanks to Zarhon and others who helped me out on those)
C. Gain access to different boons or at least re-flavored ones (Check)
D. Be able to gain more Villain type destinies (Check)

I firmly believe I have done all of the above, and I would like to introduce you to the Villainy supplement.
One thing I should note before I forget, this is really a one or the other leveling system. You shouldn't really be playing both. Also if you are, they only get one Dark Boon or normal boon and one Dark Destiny or normal Destiny. If you give your party both and they become God level powerful early on I am not to blame.

Questions and comments of course are appreciated and welcomed, want to know peoples thoughts on whether this would actually be applicable and if any of it is any good.

Thanks for your time.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Z2 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:23 am

Hmm...
Well I do like stuff.
Calling the new xp disharmony and the dark boons seem to mostly just be flavor, so I'll skip right past that.

The main new stuff I see are the elements and the destinies, so I'll comment on those.

The elements are just okay. I like anti-magic the best out of them. Cruelty, however... It seems like an INCREDIBLY bad idea to EVER use that.

-The Evil Henchman destiny is WOEFULLY underpowered. I suppose it makes sense for a henchman, but neither 4 or 7 would be very effective; and a level 10 destiny should be UNIQUE, it's as close as you get to 'winning' after all.

-The mutation experiment seems a little vague in the lvl 10. And there's nothing I've seen of it that makes it in any way preferable to the evolution destiny.

-Robotic Experiment is okay. Still a bit uninteresting in terms of benefits, and I'm not sure about the fuel thing, but okay.

-Ninjitsu Training is decent. Kudos. Maybe add more for athletics, though.

-Dark Magic is the first one I would actually consider taking! I have no improvements for it.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:46 am

Yay questions and comments!

Ok! Responses time.
Yeah, most of it's flavor, so I took your other advice and just built a document directly to the new stuff.

>The elements are just okay. I like anti-magic the best out of them. Cruelty, however... It seems like an INCREDIBLY bad idea to EVER use that.
When you say they are just okay do you mean underwhelming? Or are they all like, IMO, honesty; functional but not really worth taking.

thinking of retooling cruelty to just work on Target non-ally creature. Make it a really powerful jinx but for only one person? Defiantly more potentially useful. Anti-Magic is great. Glad you like it!

>The Evil Henchman destiny is WOEFULLY underpowered. I suppose it makes sense for a henchman, but neither 4 or 7 would be very effective; and a level 10 destiny should be UNIQUE, it's as close as you get to 'winning' after all.

How do you mean exactly? I mean The Hired Help is basically a 2/day slightly watered down version of the lvl 4 dragon destiny one
and I know lvl 7 is kinda situational, I just think it's kinda fun. Any suggestions of how to make either of those better?
I'm not sure what you mean by Unique exactly, so I request further clarification.

>-The mutation experiment seems a little vague in the lvl 10. And there's nothing I've seen of it that makes it in any way preferable to the evolution destiny.

Basically it just gives you more attribute points and some RP benefits. As to facing it off with Evolution it probably isn't(But to be honest most destinies aren't), but it does give some interesting RP and other bonus's so I think it fits. I'll defiantly take a look at trying to make it stronger.

>Ninjitsu Training is decent. Kudos. Maybe add more for athletics, though.
Can certainly do that.

>-Dark Magic is the first one I would actually consider taking! I have no improvements for it.
Thanks! So far this has been everyone whose seen it fav. So evidently I did something right with this one.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Z2 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:06 am

When I said okay for the elements, I did in fact mean 'functional, but not something I would consider taking.'

The only target enemy version of cruelty would be much better.
The mutation thing being inferior to the evolution destiny would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that they're doing the same thing (DNA modification.)
When I mentioned 'unique' for the henchman thing, it's because the lvl 10 really only gives you 2.5 utility talents. And not even particularly interesting utility talents. Considering the other destinies culminate in things like 'immortality' 'free regicide coupon' and 'the perfect marriage' getting 2.5 utility talents is INCREDIBLY disappointing.
The level 4 is fine on henchman, I suppose. The level seven legitimately might be fun if it was easier to inflict on an enemy and had higher DCs, or varying ones based upon how deadly the trap is.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:16 am

>When I said okay for the elements, I did in fact mean 'functional, but not something I would consider taking.'

Thought so!

>The only target enemy version of cruelty would be much better.
Easily changed.

>The mutation thing being inferior to the evolution destiny would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that they're doing the same thing (DNA modification.)
This is true. But while Evolution is having you form into a completely new creature, the Mutation destiny is having you morph into a pre-existing beast. Probably not a big enough difference true.

>When I mentioned 'unique' for the henchman thing, it's because the lvl 10 really only gives you 2.5 utility talents. And not even particularly interesting utility talents. Considering the other destinies culminate in things like 'immortality' 'free regicide coupon' and 'the perfect marriage' getting 2.5 utility talents is INCREDIBLY disappointing.
Hmm. Ok, I'll see if I can come up with something new for that. Not sure what but I'll try and find something

>The level 4 is fine on henchman, I suppose. The level seven legitimately might be fun if it was easier to inflict on an enemy and had higher DCs, or varying ones based upon how deadly the trap is.
Yay for level 4, and level 7 can be tweaked.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Paper Shadow on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:48 am

Quick Observations...

Evil Henchman suffers from flavour problems. Other destinies makes the players into a legendary figure, but Evil Henchman still makes them the guy under the evil guy, which doesn't feel as good, especially when compared to Vile Villain, where they become the bad guy. Villainous Benefactor is okay, I guess (and I only say that because it's similar to Dragon Mind, so it's okay to go, even if they are both boring), and so is I Can Do That!, but Master Henchmen is just bad and boring. I mean, you can get better than that with Level 7 Evolution (taking Freaky Knowledge and Attack the Day! with your three points). As a rule of thumb, the Level 4 and 7 Destinies should be worth 2 utility talents, and the Level 10 Destiny should be worth 6 utility talents...

The similarities between Mutation and Evolution has already been mention, but I wish to point out that Evolution Level 7 is flat out better than the Manticore Mutation, because Clever Tail is worth one racial point, and the racial version has no limit on uses. Also, you can just flavour your Evolution as mutation, and base your character's looks as a mixture between his old self and pre-existing beasts, so saying they are different it that regard isn't a good mindset...

Robotic Experiment is just flat out weaker than Self Discovery. Self Discovery gives more utility talents, and Endurance is such a weak skill I won't even comment...

Ninjutsu Training suffers from having to compete with The Unseen, and I think The Unseen wins. Nightwisps provide more utility than Coloured Sheet, The Unheard provides instant success on 1s on all Stealth checks forever (which on my Stealth Built Character Smoke Screen, results in a guaranteed roll of at the very least 20 without worrying about failure), and just gaining a single attribute in Brawn and Precision is not enough to rival that, and The Unseen allows five uses of the whole instant natural 20 stealth check per day, and you can use it on allies. Also, it also states that you can simply will to go unnoticed and it will happen, which is arguably better than Untraceable as long as you don't get caught (and frankly, you shouldn't)...

Mystic Villain is the best here, yes, but it didn't really have much competition. It's the only one to provide entirely new things, and it's Level 10 is a large enough jump of power, since it upgrades your current destiny talents as well. However, as an evil thing, it's only evil part is Corrupting Darkness. Dark Glamour and Magical Corruption isn't really evil. It's not a balance problem, just a flavour one. When it comes to evil magic, very little will be able to hold a light to the devilish possibilities of the Mind Sculptor. Still, as a Destiny, it's fine...

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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Zarhon on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:31 pm

Greed - Broken, if you don't put limits on the "concealment" of stuff. You can take items of any size/type/shape, and store them for infinite time. This gets broken when you start stealing ships, golden statues, or bank vault contents, which you then keep for a week on your person.

Cruelty - With the re-write, It's too similar to the "show them how you rock" and the 5 point racial version of the "enforece DM nat1" racials, whilst being inexplicably more powerful. In addition, it's description is nonsense now.

Anti-magic - Utterly broken, or nearly worthless, depending on how it works:

a) You gain a MP utility talent, which you can spam freely. No sane DM would allow this, as you'd gain access to:
- Spamming spectral tidal waves at will...
- Boosting every persuasion/athletics check there is with "the stare" or "yee-haw"...
- Jinx, Master ponykinesis, and similar talents being up 24/7...

b) You gain a MP utility talent, which you have to pay for, but you cant, since you just spent a MP on gaining that talent. Useless, unless you have multiple MPs, or a method of bypassing MP costs.

Henchman destiny - Lvl 4 is a glorified FK and uncreative. Lvl 7 needs clarification on the trap - how long does a section need? How do you get creatures into the trap, and what determines if they get trapped?

Mutation destiny - Timberwolf has a vastly inferior version of "scent tracker" racial, while timberwolf and manticore transforms are silly/weak in general, considering the nature of the transformations. Turned into a scorpion-tailed lion beast? You can now do nifty tail tricks!

Robot destiny - The cost requirement of the lvl 7 is pretty detrimental for the "benefit" you gain from it, especially for a destiny.

Ninja destiny - Inferior to "the unseen" destiny, and has nothing to do with disharmony/evilness. Also lacks general toolset of ninja tricks. For example, why not have access to:
- Pulling out ninja tools from nowhere (caltrops, grappling hook launchers, katanas, bo-staves, vaulting poles, tranquilizing shuriken, electric tazer darts, nausea-inducing poison, smoke bombs, firecracker bombs, firework rocket, dragon rocket launcher, climbing cat-claws, ninja suits, tree/ninja decoys, illustrated adult stallion/mare publication...).
- Turning into smoke, short-range teleportation, decoy-duplication.
- Default / super ability to climb any surface and cling to it, like with spiderclimb.
- Ability to jump silly distances/heights without difficulty(20-50 feet).
- Stealth knockouts - get close to creature of same/smaller unseen, and either KO it outright, or daze it (for bosses) enough to not notice you or others.
- Ability to hide behind *anything*, regardless of size/shape, compared to your own (e.g. a thin lamp-post), and ability to move through any opening space that's at least football sized.

Grrrr I lost this post 4 times due to the forum/login system being stupid and not remembering what I typed into it, as well as misclicking the back button. Mad Mad Mad
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:02 pm

Thank you all for your help!
This, probably isn't the best example of evil destinies every I must admit, it's sorta become a general destinies/element thing but I like them and I hope with your help I can make them better.

Just some quick comments and responses while I update the Quick Document so the second link in my first post.

Anti Magic is useless/broken:

Anti-magic - Utterly broken, or nearly worthless, depending on how it works:

a) You gain a MP utility talent, which you can spam freely. No sane DM would allow this, as you'd gain access to:
- Spamming spectral tidal waves at will...
- Boosting every persuasion/athletics check there is with "the stare" or "yee-haw"...
- Jinx, Master ponykinesis, and similar talents being up 24/7...

b) You gain a MP utility talent, which you have to pay for, but you cant, since you just spent a MP on gaining that talent. Useless, unless you have multiple MPs, or a method of bypassing MP costs.

Nope. Basically what it lets you do is spend a magic point to activate one Magic Point utility you don't have(Stare, Jinx whatever). Allowing you to free up space for other utilities! I feel it makes up what it lacks in Versatility in terms of raw power. Also i don't believe greed is broken because you still have to make a check to actually steal the item, so anything like a boat is going to have a DC you could never hope to reach. You could probably steal a statue or a maybe a suit of Armour though.

Cruelty's wording has now been fixed. Basically it works like a very targeted, more powerful Jinx. Probably a little situational, but if people can find uses for Loyalty..

Grey Pen, most of what you said I agree/see your point with.
I'm changing most of the destinies and I really hope that I can get yours and of course others opinions if I'm changing them on the right track.

I would however have to add.
I believe Dark Glamour and Magical Corruption are indeed evilish. Magical Corruption lets you break pretty much any magical effects you see, good or bad whichis usally bad for the people who are trying to protect themselves from you.

Dark Glamour I feel is probably a little, vampiric for this, but it's evil cause it sorta forces people to pay attention to you. Not evil so much as Egotyistical but easily deadly in the hands of someone with a vicious mindset. In my opinion anyway.

Also my changes for the Mutation Experiment - Animalistic form! destiny. I feel I have made it more, A versatile, More powerful and up to par with at least the level 7 version of Evolution. Also the level 10 destiny is easily much better.

Mutation Experiment - Animalistic form!:

Mutation Experiment - Animalistic form!
Your studies into the genetics of Ponies are quite frankly illegal and immoral but you don’t care. You dedicated your life to this research and you can feel a breakthrough coming soon.

Level 4 - Mutation Gained
You started to experiment on yourself and you seem to be gaining some form of mutation. You grow larger and can access a previously untapped strength you didn’t know exist. You gain the following Utility Talent.

Monstrous strength
1/day
When you roll a 18 or higher on a Acrobatics, Athletics or Endurance check check you can make it count as a natural 20 but not a CMC.

Level 7 - Nature Taking Over
Maybe you shouldn’t have been using that monster spit you found a rock, even if it did stop fix the dead on drinking part. Pick one of the three creatures below and gain their powers.

Timberwolf - Your coat turns more bark like and you notice your sense of smell is far more astute (You gain all three of these abilities)

Keen smell
Your nose is stronger and you are now able to understand the language of scents
3/day
You gain a +10 to sniffing out the scent of a creature or object. You must have a fresh source of the smell to be able to use this ability. You can also use the bonus to detect what type of creatures and other living things(Plants, insects and stuff) are in the area within a 10 feet radius, but DC may change to due specific smells or area affects.

Natural healing
You are closer to Timberwolves and other Magical beasts and can now communicate with them as well as any pony. You also gain the following utility talent.
3/day
You are one with the trees and have gained a startling new ability. You can now absorb foliage and other tree bits to regenerate your wounds. Using this ability acts as though you had used a DC 25 healing ability on yourself to cure either wounds or get rid of status conditions on yourself or a party member. Must have access to some form of tree or plant life


Terrible breath
One downside of your transformation is your terrible breath. You take a -2 penalty to talking to any creature with a sense of smell and gain the following utility talent.
Knock out Breath
3/day
Prep time: 10 seconds
You take a deep breath and let it out as a cloud of gas that can blast any number of creatures in five foot radius in front of you. Their eyes water and they begin to cough and must pass an endurace check of DC25 to not fall unconscious. Even if they pass they take a -5 penalty to perception checks for the next 15 minutes.

Manticore - Your tail is hardening into a point, you feel a deep rumbling in your chest and claws and you feel your teeth becoming slightly more jagged. (You gain all three of these abilities)
Poison tail
3/day
You have gained a small amount of venom in your tail that can be used to do one of two things, knockout or induce delusions. These effects last for 30 minutes and require a healing check of DC 25 to break out of early from someone else.

Your hooves have changed, facilitating the added addition of claws you could grow to like this.
Threatening Roar
3/day
Prep time: 10 seconds
You let out a wild and deadly roar, which has both the added effect of giving the next roll your teammates make a +3 moral bonus also scares most creatures the same size or smaller then you into submission, giving them a -2 to the next three checks they make against you or your allies.

Monster teeth
3/day
You can give a monstrous grin scaring the living daylights out of pretty much anyone. Gain a +10 to your next persuasion check to threaten or scare someone. You can also get your teeth to harden, allowing you to bite through ropes and other hard, but possible for a pony to chew through in a short time frame, with far more ease than a regular pony.
Cockatrice - You seem to be growing feathers and your eyes now have a strange power to them as well as the scales that kinda itch. (You gain all three of these abilities)
Immobilizing Eyes
3/day
You can immobilize a creature you are looking at for 15 ingame minutes. An immobilized creature can still talk but is unable to move from the spot it was standing when it was influenced by this talent. A creature can break out of immobilization with a DC 25 arcana check.

Sharp Eyes
Characters of your race gain a +3 bonus to perceptions checks to notice physical details. For example, noticing a tiny crack in the wall would gain benefit from this, but things that require mental insight - figuring out if someone is lying, for instance - would not.

It’s Almost Like Flying
You belong to a flying race but you’re not a peregrine falcon or anything. In fact… You kind of suck at it. You can fly with terrible maneuverability (you suffer a -15 penalty to precision and brawn skills while flying).

Level 10 Complete Mutant!
You have changed into more Monster than Pony. You gain the following.

Triple Mutation.
You realised why only be one creature when you could be several?
You can pick one power from the other two forms and upgrade any 3/day choices to 6/day. Your monstrous strength also gives you 4 attribute points to spend as you like and you may go over 10.

Welp, back to work!

Most of the other destinies have now been changed. So feel free to give it another look over and comment on them!
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Philadelphus on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:45 am

First off, apologies for my brusque tone, it's late here and I'm tired. Any criticisms are because I think these have promise, and I genuinely like some of the ideas. Seeing as how I talked over a bunch of these with you already, here are my thoughts on the rest.

Robotics Experiment would work better I think if you made some more unique benefits for it, rather than stuff that can all be taken at level 1 with a lenient GM. Gaining Mechanical at level 10 is nice. For level 4, drop the FK and CCC, and have them get +3 or +4 to two different skills. Not very flashy, but fairly balanced. For level 7, what's the daily limit on the weight lifting? Once per day would probably be good, since that's pretty powerful. Lose the penalties, this is magitek and penalties aren't much fun, especially if you want to put your level 4 skill-buffs into Stealth. The talents also seem to be in a different font, and it bugs my OCD. Level 10...I don't think More Than Meets the Eye really fits, but it's also not causing any problems. The 3/day take-20 on Mechanics is nice. Maybe instead of FK in History, just get, say, +5 to Knowledge? It feels like it could use something else, but I'm afraid I don't have any ideas right now.

I said it in Skype, I'll repeat it here – don't have every talent you get be 3/day. Changing its daily uses lets you play with the power a bit more. Colored Sheet is a little...dull. Maybe have something like 5/day, you can re-roll a Stealth check and take the higher result. Smoke Bomb is good as a 3/day, and I think that's all you really need for level 4. Level 7: you might as well let them pick where to put the Attribute points. In real life, ninjas were actually often just people who were really good at blending in with crowds of peasants, for which a high Horse-Sense might make sense. Or maybe you want to play a magical ninja with Arcana. You could rename Poison Darts to Knockout Darts, since that's basically what they do. It looks good otherwise. Ninja Agility...hmmm...the first part seems potentially breakable ("I leap 150 feet off the ten-story roof and land in front of the fleeing criminal! And I don't have to roll for it!"). What if you make it something like 1/day, but make your next 3 Acrobatics or Athletics checks natural 20s? And I do like the part about setting the DC down, although if you have a +15 bonus in either of those skills it becomes an "I can't fail" card for an hour. Maybe have it set the DC to (your bonus in the skill in question + 5)? That way you'd have a guaranteed 75% chance to pass it, no matter what your skill. Level 10: Heh. Log Substitute. That's kinda funny, and could work seeing as we have racial abilities like Nine Lives. Perfect Decoy? Not quite as fancy, but could work. Does the ally in question have to be within a certain range (sight, say)? Free Smoke Bomb is nice. The upgrade part...you already used it with the Mutation destiny, maybe come up with something new? I don't really have any ideas at the moment though.

And by this point I'm having trouble keeping my eyes open, so Mystic Villain will have to wait, though I like it from a preliminary reading.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:45 pm

@Philadelphus

Changed, changed and changed! Added a bunch of new stuff to the robot destiny(You are right, making up my own stuff is more fun!) Changed the wording on some of the ninja stuff to make it less broken. I didn't change colored sheet, mainly because I believe it can be useful, especially when used in conjunction with other stealth based skills.

Ally has Unseen and you have Sheet? Or maybe you just have Sheet and Stealth mode? Have fun ambushing anyone who walks past.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Philadelphus on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:29 am

Mystic Villain.

This one is pretty well balanced, and has some neat ideas. But you want to know how to improve it, don't you?
Level 4 — I don't see anything wrong with this one. Corrupting Darkness is interesting, well-flavored, and potentially quite useful (people chasing you through a building? Use it on the doorknob to slow them down! Imprisoned in a dungeon? Use it on the lock! Etc.). Two uses per day seems just right.

Level 7 — A little bit odder flavor-wise, but I see what you're trying to get at, I think. I really don't know that its downside is ever going to come into play, as by the time someone is within 10 feet of you they're probably already going to be aware of you, unless you're actively trying to hide, in which case why would you have the Aura on? It's basically a permanent free +5 to Persuasion checks at this point, unless for some weird reason you can't get within 10 feet. I know it's fun to have At Will stuff, but I think this is a bit too powerful for that. Maybe make it something like a 5/day with a 5 minute duration. That should easily last for the duration of a short conversation and you can use it up to 5 times per day, so it preserves the idea without being totally breakable. Maybe even down to 3/day the more I think about it

Also, I'm still slightly confused by that last sentence. You can still only use it 2/day, right? But each use can now affect up to three objects? I guess it's technically more useful, just not sure how often you'll need to corrupt three objects at a time.

Level 10 — The upgrades to Corrupting Darkness seem balanced and interesting. The potential to corrupt NPCs (does it work on PCs?) is fairly versatile, and definitely fits the flavor. I still don't get the point of a variable-range Dark Glamour; is 10 feet every really going to make that big a difference? Maybe if the range increased to like 50 feet, so you could use it more on crowds or something. The +10 to Persuasion is nice and all, but c'mon, you can corrupt people and force them to do your bidding, why bother trying to persuade them?

Magical Corruption's useful, I guess. It doesn't exactly stir my blood, but I'm sure there are situations when it could come in handy. Though "break any magical effect" is a bit vague...can you use it on the Elements of Harmony, and what would it do? It's a nice little anti-magic nuke to have in reserve, I guess.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Greywander on Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:01 am

Okay, this is an interesting idea, and I actually just posted something similar a few hours ago after thinking about it all day while I was at work, so maybe we can compare and contrast each others ideas.

My first problem, though, is that Disharmony seems to be meant to run on a "for teh evulz" mentality, which is fine for goofy villains, but when taken in any kind of seriousness becomes downright suicidal. How many orphanages do you have to burn down before you've got government agents chasing you to hell and back, and a bounty the size of Texas on your head? Serious villains don't think of themselves as evil, they just have a twisted view of right and wrong. You don't burn down an orphanage because it's evil and you're evil so that's what you do, rather, you do "evil" things because it advances some personal goal you have, like cowing people into submission or extorting the artifact you need from someone. Your personal goal might be to stir up the country and create as much havoc and chaos as you can (in which case you might just be Discord), but that's just one of many possible goals a "villain" could have.

My second problem is that it creates a binary moral choice system. You're either "Good" (Harmony) or "Evil" (Disharmony), and advancing in one necessarily means retreating in the other. I understand that Harmony doesn't allow for certain character types, because they're not particularly harmonious. My solution was to create a second system that works along side the current Harmony system, rather than in opposition to it. This allows a party to have a villain on board without both heroes and villains being held back by the system. Your system requires the whole party to play as villains for it to really work.

Now, I didn't read through all the destinies and boons, since I'm more concerned with the general idea than the details, but I did look over the Elements, and I couldn't help but noticed that Anti-Magic is severely overpowered. Let me explain: You can spend three utility talent slots to get, say, True Sight, The Stare, and Art of the Dress, and choose some other Element. OR you can choose Anti-Magic as your Element, and have access to True Sight, The Stare, and Art of the Dress, plus any other utility talent that uses a magic point, without taking it, and free up those slots for other talents. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, but that sounds like what it does. It lets you use any talent that requires a magic point, even if you don't have it.

Sorry if I sound overly critical. I do think something like this would be a neat addition to the system.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:21 am

@Greywander

You don't sound overly critical at all.. I'm slightly little confused about the burning down of orphanages. But you don't sound overly critical and you do bring up some valid points. Also thanks for being the first to comment on something that isn't boons/destinies Razz

>My first problem, though, is that Disharmony seems to be meant to run on a "for teh evulz" mentality,
Just from the dock: "Disharmony is earned through bad, evil/malicious or heck even just plain annoying behavior."
So you can play it "for teh evuls" but it's not the only way of playing it. Maybe your group just wants to play jerks or maybe play as changelings invaded Equestria for their queen?. My main idea for this was to allow DMs to play campaigns where the entire party is super-villains, anti-heroes, or even just mares and stallions who are willing to take on "Any job no matter how nasty if it pays well". Goals for characters could include setting out to TAKE OVER THE WOLRD! Or maybe just make an extra 500 bits or so off the whole saving the planet gig.

Hopefully that address the point you were trying to make, and not completely misses it. Tell me if it does...

>"My second problem is that it creates a binary moral choice system. You're either "Good" (Harmony) or "Evil" (Disharmony), and advancing in one necessarily means retreating in the other."
I must admit I didn't build it with it working alongside playing with harmony, something i thought I mention in the document. If it's no in their I'll add it. But yeah, not really meant for players who want to have both good or evil in the party, though that I guess could work with a little tweaking(One batch of the party gaining Dark Destinies and the other the normal ones or something. Some tweaking might be needed in that regard, I'll work on it tomorrow promise, also will do a critique on your anarchy idea which I really liked as well.)

Though to answer this question
>How many orphanages do you have to burn down before you've got government agents chasing you to hell and back, and a bounty the size of Texas on your head?

Depends. Which era are you playing in and how much does your DM like Orphans? General rule of thumb however would be after the first or second one depending on the size of the fire and the town in which you set it, and don't let any of them escape. They become hero's or heroines and are really annoying to get rid of if you let them live.

Now to finally get to the Anti-Magic point.
Anti-Magic:

I couldn't help but noticed that Anti-Magic is severely overpowered. Let me explain: You can spend three utility talent slots to get, say, True Sight, The Stare, and Art of the Dress, and choose some other Element. OR you can choose Anti-Magic as your Element, and have access to True Sight, The Stare, and Art of the Dress, plus any other utility talent that uses a magic point, without taking it, and free up those slots for other talents. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, but that sounds like what it does. It lets you use any talent that requires a magic point, even if you don't have it.

So that ones in a spoiler. Post is getting long and I wanted the entire quote in cause I do get where you're coming from.

What Anti-Magic does is basically allow you to "Spend a magic point to activate say the Stare even if you didn't pick it."
I admit, it is built for power like most of the Magic point costing abilities. However it is very much less versatile then the Element of Magic in the sense that Anti-Magic can get you... maybe 4-6 abilities I'd need to recount. Yes these do have powerful effects, stare netting you a 20 bonus to persuasion, art of the dress allowing you to disguise teammates or make everyone auto fail for 7 minutes. All powerful abilities but I do believe it is on par with the Element of Magic which is far more versatile, allowing you to take almost every ability in the hand book including stuff that lets you: Turn invisible, escape from being restrained, Ask DM questions, steal items, gain knowledge in a particular field. It may only be for 5 minutes but that's still a lot versitility and choice compared to Anti-Magic's. IMO anyway, maybe most disagree.

Anyway thanks for commenting!
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Greywander on Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:56 pm

Burning down orphanages is just my go-to example of a wanton evil act, particularly in the context of roleplaying games.

So really, it's just a reflavoring of Harmony to be applicable to more self-serving parties. There's nothing wrong with that, though I'm curious why it would need to be split off of the default system. Why not add all the extra Elements, Boons, and Destinies to the general pile of such things, making them available to everyone? One, problem, though, is that being self-serving doesn't necessarily mean doing "evil" acts, and in fact you'll probably end up doing a lot of benevolent acts because that really is the safest and fasted way to get what you want. Another issue is that it still requires all the players to commit to the same morality for their characters. It's either all Harmony or all Disharmony, you can't really have a mixed group of heroes and villains. Now, you can just ignore the whole issue and award "Harmony", or whatever you're going to call it, regardless of what the PCs are actually doing, so long as they're advancing the plot. They might rob a bank, then go rescue a kidnapped filly, all in the same session, and both would earn them XP.

I think, either in the doc, or here in the thread, you did mention something about running Harmony and Disharmony simultaneously, though I think you followed it up with, "If you felt like doing that for some reason." So, yeah, you made it pretty clear that the two weren't meant to be used together, but that it might be possible to do so. The main reason I'm pressing this issue is because I think the potential for a mixed group is high, both the potential of it happening at all, and the potential such a group has for interparty RPing. Think about it. Your typical D&D group will have a very Harmonious paladin or cleric, probably a more neutral wizard or fighter, and a more Disharmonious rogue or necromancer or something. The paladin has to grudgingly admit that the party needs the rogue's skills, while the rogue has to admit he'd be dead many times over if it weren't for the paladin, and the two eventually resolve their differences to form a real friendship. Or not. Either way, it makes interparty dynamics more interesting.

As for Anti-Magic vs. Magic, let me put it like this: Magic gives you temporary access to a very wide range of abilities, and, in fact, it may just be somewhat overpowered. But it does have a cost, you need to spend a Magic point, and all the talents it gives you access to are only that don't normally cost a Magic point. In other words, if you took the talent in question, expending a utility slot, then you could use it without spending a Magic point. Anti-Magic, on the other hand, lets you spend a Magic point to get access to a somewhat less wide range of abilities. There's no cost, though. You have to spend a Magic point, yes, but all the abilities it gives you access to cost a Magic point anyway, so there's no net gain or loss. Furthermore, there's now no incentive to take any talent that costs a Magic point, as you could always just activate it by using Anti-Magic instead and save the utility slot for something else. Basically, choosing Anti-Magic as your Element is equivalent to giving you ALL utility talents that cost a Magic point, without using up ANY utility slots. And I'm not sure you realize how many such talents there are:
Spoiler:
Create Crazy Contraption
Art of the Dress
Yee-Haw!
The Stare
Master Ponykinesis
Watching Like a Hawk
Speak With The Dead
Jinx!
Sunderblade
Spectral Tsunami
True Sight
Hum, less than I thought, it seems. My previous point still stands, though. I see what you were trying to do, but it doesn't quite work. In another thread, one in which I proposed that Elements can be upgraded into either pure or corrupted version, the best I could come up with for a corrupted version of Magic (which seems to be what you were aiming for) was to make characters unable to understand each other. Mechanically, it's very different from the original, but flavor-wise it sort of works as an anti-friendship. Being unable to understand each other will severely hinder teamwork, making it easier to subdue a group of confused enemies. You might be able to tweak things to find a similar effect to Magic that works as a sort of corrupted version of it, but it might be easier to toss aside mechanics and think, flavor-wise, what a corrupted Magic would be like, and then implement that mechanically.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:40 pm

Ahh that would explain the Orphanages, and fair enough.

You're right though, it does need some form of "inter-party" system I guess. How would something like, not taking away harmony for doing bad deeds if the party decides that's the way they want to go. Cause in some situations being a jerk is just the easiest way of getting what you want.

So no loss of harmony at any pint, at the key levels "3,4,6,7,9,10" depending on which track(or maybe make it just one track and give them access to the different boons depending on what their recent actions have been when they leveled?) they gain access to either a Dark Boon(Of which I need to actually right some more instead of just flavouring what's in the book) or Normal Boon, Dark Destiny or Normal Destiny. This would allow for both the Villains and Heroes of the group to be able to RP persuading Allies to go along with either a good or evil plan, as well as allow both to feel equally useful and needed.

Another option could potentially be allows players to pick at the start which track they want to level up on, and someone who wants to play the villain isn't going to negatively effect someone who wants to play the hero. Thus still leading to RP moments but not penalizing a player for wanting to play an anti-hero or straight our jerk.

As to your Anti-Magic point.
Yeah, thinking on it a little more I agree, it's quite broken. Specially when I realized if you a PH was allowing you to use the flaw supplement and this and you picked "Derp and Herp Derp(not official but bear with me) you could potentially activate the Stare 3 times in a single check. Make Persuasion your cutie-mark skill and take Awesomeness and I think you just broke something massive, or you'd be able to do all kinds of other silly things if that didn't work.

Your idea for broken magic was similar to the one I had, but I ended up changing that one to Betrayal, cause that seemed to fit with the who turning ponies into mistrusting monsters.

Umm
Maybe something like what I suggested for the lvl 10 of the Mystic Villain destiny
so something like.

Anti-Magic - Magic
Gain a +15 to destroying a magic barrier or effect you can see, hear or touch.

Less broken, still very much "Anti-Magic" and who doesn't love being able to destroy those pesky barriers that people place around chests filled with gold and jewels? Anyway, those are my ideas for changes. Thoughts?
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:04 pm

@Philadelphus
Mystic Villain.

This one is pretty well balanced, and has some neat ideas. But you want to know how to improve it, don't you?

Sorry I completely missed your post last night and I'm sorry!

However I have made some changes.

Lvl 4 - Yay one that works! Finally! lol. No thank you for this I had a lot of fun coming up with Corrupting Darkness. King Sombra was who I had idea wise for this.

Lvl 7 - Dark Glamor wasn't working for this, and not just because of reasons you posted. Flavor wise it was wrong, more akin to vampires or demons who want attention drawn to them. So I changed it for the following ability!

Magic Sense:

Level 7 - Magic Sense
At will
Range - 20 feet
You are able to automatically sense the presence and location of any spell, that would take an Arcana check of DC 20 or less to break, around you. You still however need to do a check to find out what exactly the spell does.

and it's level 10 upgrade
Upgraded Senses
Your magic has been upgraded. In a range of 40 feet you can now sense spells but the DC is set to 30 or lower and you can pick one spell you detect and automatically know what it does.

Hopefully that works better. Magic Corruption came into mind to stop things like that damn memory shield, I should probably set a DC for it however so you can't instant nuke the elements of Harmony or Celestia's personal bubble shield.

Maybe a DC of 50? Will get over most things but won't allow you to destroy anything really plot important. Also should make it so it doesn't get expended if it fails, that way if you do try it on something huge you're not just wasting it if it doesn't work.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Philadelphus on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:09 am

Hayatecooper wrote:Lvl 4 - Yay one that works! Finally! lol. No thank you for this I had a lot of fun coming up with Corrupting Darkness. King Sombra was who I had idea wise for this.
It's a cool flavorful ability that isn't just +X to skill Y. I know it's generally harder to make up new talents with qualitative rather than quantitative effects, but I think you nailed it on this one.

For the rest...

I'm not really sure that the "location" of a spell is a really well-defined concept...if you have a spherical forcefield, where exactly is it's location? At the center of the sphere? At the point on its surface closest to you? Or what if a spell covers an entire room, or something. You can probably just leave that bit out and it would work just as well. The "presence" of a spell kinda gives you the same information, I think.

Maybe for Magical Corruption, just change the wording to the following:
Treat your next attempt to dispel a magical effect as a cutie mark critical.

Also, you mentioned not keeping Dark Glamour, but it's still listed under level 10? Or were you just moving it to there?


Last edited by Philadelphus on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edited to fix and mistakes and not sound quite so clunky.)
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:24 am

Telling a player a generalized location I feel would stop a lot of:
"Their are spells around you."
"I roll Arcana on every single surface ever."
"Great..."

As for force fields you might get told a more generalized location of the bit that passes nearest to you if it's a dome. So something like.
"I use Magic Sense"
"Ok, you know a bunch of spells like blah blah blah and one that is like five feet in your left."
"That's an empty alleyway right?"
"Yeah."
"Ok, roll arcana on the..."

As to Corruption, making it an Auto CMC would probably solve most of the problems. Thanks for that!
And yeah, DG was just moved and I kinda forgot to take it out. Can fix that now.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Philadelphus on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:07 am

I certainly see your point about the location, and honestly it's probably not really a problem. It's mostly people like me who would find ways to abuse it. Smile
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:17 am

Everything is able to be abused, it's just to a matter of degree. But hey, you sure can try if you'd like Razz
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Philadelphus on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:58 pm

Well, when I say abuseable, I mean mostly by pedantic GMs such as myself.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:26 pm

Well, it is up to the PH to give out the information I guess.
Maybe you get a clearer location the weaker the DC for the spell is?

So lets say a DC5 charm on a really crappy lock. You basically get a map and flashing lights pointing at it
Then a invisible wall wit a DC of exactly 20. You get very vague directions and more of a "sense" that it's to your left somewhere in the range go have fine finding it.

Not sure the best way to phrase that in the document though.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Zarhon on Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:28 am

Hayatecooper wrote:Well, it is up to the PH to give out the information I guess.
Maybe you get a clearer location the weaker the DC for the spell is?

So lets say a DC5 charm on a really crappy lock. You basically get a map and flashing lights pointing at it
Then a invisible wall wit a DC of exactly 20. You get very vague directions and more of a "sense" that it's to your left somewhere in the range go have fine finding it.

Not sure the best way to phrase that in the document though.

DC 5 or lower - Pinkie Pie breaks the 4th wall to expose on the effect/object/direction (with movie-projector slides, hoof-puppets, and rubbing your face into the source of the magic).
DC 10 - A pink trail of "smoke" leads towards the object, or you are pointed in the correct direction.
DC 15 - You gain a puzzle-like hint on how to reach the object, or which direction to face, or what other objects it near to.
DC 20 or higher - You have "A hunch" that there is an object, but no real direction.

Very Happy
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

Post  Hayatecooper on Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:07 am

Yeah that could work.
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Re: Disharmony level up Supplement

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