Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

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Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:33 pm

This thread is for extraordinarily powerful combinations and abilities that seem way too powerful for their own good. Share them here to bring them to our attention and just showoff how cool they are.  Cool
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:55 pm

*Read post in other thread.

If you promise not to ruin my fun and go changing things, I'll show you my combo.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:23 pm

Sorry Bronymous, we're committed to making a balanced system filled with interesting and powerful options - but nothing so powerful that it makes other options less interesting or irrelevant by comparison. Feel free to ignore this thread if you're worried things might change, it's for the purpose of people that actually want to improve the system.


Last edited by Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:25 pm

Well, I'm going to put it in the other thread, partially because its not actually broken, and partially because its so fantastic and I'm proud of it.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:27 pm

Awesome. sunny
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Caleocek on Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:02 pm

I think, just think, there are a few quick PiP-building combos that are a tad overpowered, mostly involving the new traits. For example, you can use It's Over on turn 2 through this combo (though admitedly, it requires a high level):

Traits: Spellscape Familiar, Cutscene Immunity (To ensure the familiar survives long enough), Dual Wielder
Items: Ritual Knife, Amulet of Adrenaline
Talents: Gather Energy [+1], Trance [+4], It's Over [-17]
The Combo:
Turn 1-5 Pips, use Gather Energy. Spellscape familiar gives 1 Pip.
Turn 2-6 Pips, use Trance twice (+8 pip) and use the Ritual Knife to get 3 Pip.
Turn 2 still-18 Pips. Use Offhand Strike, then It's Over.

You can substitute the Amulet of Adrenaline for using All Or Nothing if you're certain this combo will end the fight, and it's not even the nastiest thing you can do. You can, for example, use Crescendo and summon a Fire Giant in the same amount of turns, while still having a good amount of PiP, all with similar tactics. (Okay, that absolutely requires the maximum amount of traits, but still)

Traits: Spellscape Familiar, Conjurer's Pet, Consume Spirit, The Spirit Lives On, The Spirit Ascends, Cutscene Immunity
Items: Ritual Knife, Amulet of Adrenaline
Talents: Gather Energy [+1], Trance [+4], Crescendo [-10]
The Combo:
Turn 1-5 Pips, use Gather Energyand use the Ritual Knife to get 3 Pip. Spellscape familiar gives 1 Pip
Turn 2-10 Pips, use Trance twice (+8 pip) , you now have 18 PiP. Sacrifice the pet with Consume Spirit, you now have a fire giant, an extra standard action, and 19 Pip. You can now use Crescendo, and finish the turn with 9 extra Pip. 10 if the spellscape familiar is still there, allowing you to use Crescendo again.
You can even still use It's Over, if you want to be really overkill.

So, unless I'm missing something, I think we have an overpowered combo on our hands. Or hooves, whichever you prefer.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SimpleZen on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:29 am

Caleocek wrote:
Traits: Spellscape Familiar, Cutscene Immunity (To ensure the familiar survives long enough), Dual Wielder
Items: Ritual Knife, Amulet of Adrenaline
Talents: Gather Energy [+1], Trance [+4], It's Over [-17]
The Combo:
Turn 1-5 Pips, use Gather Energy. Spellscape familiar gives 1 Pip.
Turn 2-6 Pips, use Trance twice (+8 pip) and use the Ritual Knife to get 3 Pip.
Turn 2 still-18 Pips. Use Offhand Strike, then It's Over.
Hmm, the only issue I see is Ritual Knife. I'm not quiet sure if it operates as free/minor action, which it would need to for this to work.

The combat talent it grants is listed as a 'Free Utility'. My knowledge of tabletop terminology lacking i have checked the terms glossary in the players' handbook and found nothing. I then 'Ctrl-F'ed the handbook and the supplements and found only three other combat talents with that descriptor.

Spoiler:
[-3] Miracle – Free Utility
Target unconscious ally regains 3d12 hp.

[0] Savage Dreadnought - Free Utility [Inspired by AlicornPriest]
Pay 3 hp. If you do, you may make a saving throw.

[0] Acidic Addendum - Free Utility
Trigger - You make an attack that has only one target.
Effect - The attack causes the target to suffer 5 ongoing damage (save ends), in addition to its other effects.
While they seem to operate as free/minor actions it be nice to get some clarification *cough'stairc'cough'devteam'cough*
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:32 am

Free Utility is basically just meaning it's a free action that's a non-attack. As what Utility means in this combat system. But that's for quesiton making in it's own topic.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SimpleZen on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:40 am

Xel Unknown wrote:Free Utility is basically just meaning it's a free action that's a non-attack. As what Utility means in this combat system. But that's for quesiton making in it's own topic.
Thanks for the clarification and quick reply. Very Happy

although it's a little embarrassing that i scanned that section of the forum and completely missed that thread Embarassed
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:42 am

It used to be called a Free action... Then was added the Utility/Attack Termonology so "action" terms got moved to being either a Utility or an Attack.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  thematthew on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:09 pm

So, looking at it, due to the previous ruling of 'you can use multiple Ritual Knives if you have them' the turn 2 It's Over can actually be done at level 3 (2 if you have friend with good ol' On My Mark):

Level 3:
Traits: Dual Wielder, Perfect Defense
Items: Ritual Knife, Ritual Knife
Talents: Gather Energy [+1], Trance [+4], It's Over [-17]

Turn 1: Ritual Knife (+3), Gather Energy. Final pips: 8
Turn 2: Ritual Knife (+3), Trance (+4), Trance (+4), Offhand Strike (-1), It's Over (-17). Final pips: 0.

Level 2:
Trait: Gold is Power
Items: Ritual Knife, Ritual Knife
Talents: same

Turn 1: Same as above + get OMM from ally to use Trance(+4) and 1st minor toward switching weapons. Final pips: 12
Turn 2: Trance (+4), second minor to switch weapons, Ritual Knife (+3), It's Over (-17). Final pips: 1.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:13 pm

thematthew wrote:So, looking at it, due to the previous ruling of 'you can use multiple Ritual Knives if you have them' the turn 2 It's Over can actually be done at level 3 (2 if you have friend with good ol' On My Mark):

Wait, where was this ruling? If I said this I must have been either confused by the question or just plain forgotten the Diversity Rule in item selection - which states that you cannot benefit from two of the same item. Or maybe I erroneously assumed that you were bypassing the diversity rule in some theoretical way due to DM intervention.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  thematthew on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:19 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
thematthew wrote:So, looking at it, due to the previous ruling of 'you can use multiple Ritual Knives if you have them' the turn 2 It's Over can actually be done at level 3 (2 if you have friend with good ol' On My Mark):

Wait, where was this ruling? If I said this I must have been either confused by the question or just plain forgotten the Diversity Rule in item selection - which states that you cannot benefit from two of the same item. Or maybe I erroneously assumed that you were bypassing the diversity rule in some theoretical way due to DM intervention.

Give me a little and I can find it.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:21 pm

No need, I trust you. Either way, the diversity rule would prohibit the use of two ritual knives by the same character - regardless what I may have said in a misguided haze before. It's sometimes hard to keep a hold of what version of the rules we ended up going with, as they sometimes change a lot during playtesting and initial design.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Philadelphus on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:03 am

Ok, so I *think* I may have found something worthy of this thread.

For starters, a setup similar to my Punching Bag Bites Back idea I posted in the other thread: Hellspike Armor, Gather Energy, Slashback, Healing Salve, Meditate, and Rapid Recovery. Vital Surge, Blood of the Wolf and Who's the Tank? to simultaneously wear a Resist- or Regen-granting piece of armor would be good too. The problem with that setup is that you can only really use it if the enemy actually attacks you. There are ways to get enemies to attack you in combat, but they require extra Combat Talents or Traits that make it difficult to pull off. Wouldn't it be nice to have a way to force opponents to attack you so you could just sit back and hit back?

Next, take the utility talent Maddening Mockery:
Maddening Mockery – 1/Day
Preparation Time: 30 Seconds
Make a Perception or Persuasion check. Target creature makes an opposing Perception or Persuasion check. If you beat the target’s check, that creature flies into a berserker rage for the next minute (the creature will do its best to damage you as much as possible every turn for one minute [ten rounds]).
I interpret that as the creature doing its best to attack you with an attack that causes damage every turn. (If it uses [Combat] Utilities or attacks that don't cause damage this won't work as well, but I don't think trying to cause status effects quite fits with "will do its best to damage you as much as possible".)

Next, initiate combat with the target using Maddening Mockery. Then, use the following sequence:
Turn 1 (4 PiPs): Meditate[-2]. Slashback[-2] and Strikeback[0] from Hellspike armor when you're attacked.
Turn 2 (0 PiPs): Gather Energy[+1], which combined with the +1 PiP from Rapid Recovery gives you 2 PiPs, enough to use Slashback again when you get attacked. Use Strikeback every turn, obviously, since it's free.
Turn 3 (0 PiPs): Healing Salve x2 plus the 1 you get from Rapid Recovery at the start gives you 5 PiPs. Continue Slashing and Striking back.
Turn 4 (5 PiPs): Repeat from Turn 1.

Now, assuming you can survive the other creature's attacks and it does indeed give you the triggers to get off both Slashback and Strikeback every turn, over the course of 10 turns you're going to deal (3d12+6) * 10 = 30d12+60 damage. Assuming an average value of ~12–13 for Slashback and ~6–7+6 for Strikeback, that's roughly 240–260. Divide that by 10 and you're doing roughly 25 damage per turn, and that's not counting what you could potentially do with something like King of Fools and an appropriate special.

So, um...thoughts?

Edit: Oh, yeah, and you could throw Duelist and Expert Duelist in there for a guaranteed +6 damage per turn, +60 over the course of 10 turns. Oh, and throw in a Spellblade for +3 damage once per turn for an extra +30.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SilentBelle on Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:15 am

I think you can only react once per attack for starters. (I might want to double-check that)

Second off, I think this just points more to meditate needing to change

And third off, getting someone to attack you for the sole purpose of proving you can best 'em... well that's just mean Razz

Fourth, rapid recovery gives you pips when you have 3 or fewer pips, not 4.

I don't really think this is broken anymore than meditate allows. Still, a taunting, reflective punchingbag defender character is a great build.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Philadelphus on Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:11 am

SilentBelle wrote:I think you can only react once per attack for starters. (I might want to double-check that)
I specifically asked this in the Simple Question thread earlier, because Slashback has the trigger that a creature hits you with an attack and Strikeback has the trigger an enemy deals damage to you, and the answer I got was that they are technically two different triggers and both can be activated as long as an enemy hits you with an attack that deals damage to you (so you do have to actually take damage for this to work. You can't negate or reflect it, so too much Resist and you're actually shooting yourself in the hoof).

SilentBelle wrote:
And third off, getting someone to attack you for the sole purpose of proving you can best 'em... well that's just mean Razz
Unfortunately we only have an "overpowered combos" thread, not a "nice combos" thread. Razz

SilentBelle wrote:
Fourth, rapid recovery gives you pips when you have 3 or fewer pips, not 4.
And I believe I've taken that into account everywhere in this combo. Are you talking about turn 3? Because you technically get the PiP from RR at the start of your turn, before you gain the 4 from two uses of Healing Salve, and I just worded it somewhat awkwardly. If you spotted somewhere else that I messed up though, please do point it out. Embarassed

SilentBelle wrote:
I don't really think this is broken anymore than meditate allows. Still, a taunting, reflective punchingbag defender character is a great build.

Just for fun, I recalculated with one of the proposed changes I saw for Meditate, making it only affect the next two attacks instead of all attacks for the next two turns.

Turn 1 (4 PiPs): Meditate[-2]. Slashback[-2] and Strikeback[0] from Hellspike armor when you're attacked.
Turn 2 (0 PiPs): Gather Energy[+1], which combined with the +1 PiP from Rapid Recovery gives you 2 PiPs, enough to use Slashback again when you get attacked. Use Strikeback every turn, obviously, since it's free.
Turn 3 (0 PiPs): Healing Salve x2 plus the 1 you get from Rapid Recovery at the start gives you 5 PiPs. Continue Slashing and Striking back.
Turn 4 (5 PiPs): Repeat from Turn 1.

Meditate now only adds damage on turns 1, 4, 7, and 10, so your total damage (assuming this basic setup, no Duelist traits or Spellblade which all together could add +90) is 6 * (1d12+6) + 4 * (3d12+6) = 18d12+60. That does cut the expected damage down to about 177 or so, which works out to an average damage output of 17.7 per turn.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:55 pm

[+4] Trance - Standard Utility
You suffer vulnerability 4 until the end of your next turn.

[+2] Defensive Fighting - Standard Attack
Deal 2 damage to target creature and gain resist 2 until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Below the Belt - Reaction Utility
Trigger - You deal 5 or more damage to a creature
Effect - That creature is dazed until the end of your next turn.

[-9] Berserker’s Rage - Minor Utility
For the rest of the battle you may deal +3d6 damage on one single-target attack each round and you suffer Vulnerability 4.

ITEM:
Ritual Knife - 2500 Bits
Once per battle, you may use the following combat talent.

[0] Bloody Ritual - Free Utility [1/1 Battle]
Choose one of the following;
A) Pay 2 hp. If you do, immediately gain 1 pip
B) Pay 4 hp. If you do, immediately gain 2 pips
C) Pay 6 hp. If you do, immediately gain 3 pips

Now if you don't see how the this seems to be broken and overpowered:

Turn one: Trance + Ritual Knife + Berserker’s Rage

Turn two and beyond: Defensive Fighting + Below the Belt

This would lead to dazelocking all solo fights without question.
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Post  sunbeam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:35 pm

As it was brought up in the simple question forum as soon as I stumbled upon the combo, I figured I'd post the basic analysis for breaking Stunning heron here:
Necessary level: 2
Combat traits: 1
gold: 2500 (optional)

Talents:
[+4] Dark Bargain - Standard Utility
You suffer 2 ongoing damage (save ends), vulnerability 2 (save ends), and a -2 penalty to damage (save ends).
(trance may work better, I'm just using dark bargain.)
[-2] Defender - Interrupt Utility
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Effect - The triggering attack hits you instead.
[-4] Stunning Heron's Hoof - Immediate Interrupt [Created by LoganAura]
Trigger - A creature would deal damage to you.
Effect - The triggering creature is stunned until the end of its next turn.

Trait: Lightning reflexes (-1 pip cost to interrupts and reactions)

items: Full plate (2500 bits) (for neutralizing dark bargain)

With just this, you can perma-stun any single enemy in a battle. This is most useful against solo monsters and elite+minion groups, but also has utility in balanced teamfights (say, stunning the only heavy hitter makes the buff guy useless as well).

At level 2, this is basically the only thing you can do with your turn, after you use the 4 pips you start with. From here you can use Blood Pact and Rapid Recovery to gain pips, then do whatever you want with your choice of small minor actions. My favorite is drain blood, as it gaurantees you only need to take 1 damage from blood pact every turn, but if you just pick out a good minor action that works more than once that costs 1 or 2 pips, you can spam it eternally.

Obviously the major boon from this is the perma-stun. It also happens to be a self-sustaining combo that leaves you with at least one extra action, making it 100% spammable, which makes for more boring battles. So you can perma-stun an enemy and/or negate 1 attack aimed at you per turn, all while spamming another minor action. Broken? Beats me.

I personally think the most effective way to nerf it is just to make it a reaction, so you perma-stun is almost still possible, but not without taking heavy hits.

Also, I might be playing a game tomorrow night, and if I am then I'll basically be using that build, so I might be able to playtest is.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:44 pm

Awwwwwwwwwwww.

See, I've been looking for a really good build to run something like that. That's perfect. And now that you put it here, it's gonna get torn down.

If I were you I would put an addendum to it about how it isn't broken and should be left the way it is. By my reckoning, that's one use of the combo per turn, IF you set up for it every turn. It seems like something to run as a just in case, and preferably focus on something else.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:54 pm

Bronymous wrote:Awwwwwwwwwwww.

See, I've been looking for a really good build to run something like that. That's perfect. And now that you put it here, it's gonna get torn down.

If I were you I would put an addendum to it about how it isn't broken and should be left the way it is. By my reckoning, that's one use of the combo per turn, IF you set up for it every turn. It seems like something to run as a just in case, and preferably focus on something else.

To be fair, we were just talking about Stunning Heron's Hoof in the Simple Questions topic, and Dan is looking to change it...

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  sunbeam on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:16 pm

I just came up with it last night, bronymous. Then everybody starts talking about banning it, and I figured I may as well put up what I'd already discovered. If it helps, you can probably use it until the end of the week, while we argue about how to nerf it. I still feel it should be nerfed, I just don't think it should be nerfed by much. Perma-stun is something that we've been trying to remove from the system for ages, since frostfall got nerfed if I remember. Being able to do it at level two is just silly.
EDIT: Thanks for complimenting my build, by the way.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:32 pm

EXTREAMLY BROKEN COMBO: Amulet of Adrenaline + Ritual Knife = TURN ONE CRESCENDO/ROYAL COMMAND...

Add in the Trait: Gold is Power you take this combo AT LEVEL THREE.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:07 am

Not sure if this is broken... but I made a Critfisher build with my level 3 character, and just so happened to do a critfisher that, when everything resolved, I ended up doing 40 damage and gaining 7 pips on my first turn... I played around with it a bit more, and am able to do 15ish damage and gain a 2 pips in one turn pretty regularly (50%ish) (which is just a good combo and not completely broken). And 25% of the time I'll just do nothing and get a pip. But that 40 damage critfisher was pretty scary. (it also healed about 30 HP and gave 3 people some hefty resistance). Maybe Critfisher needs a nerf?

In any case I think Critfishing is awesome since I built my character around it and I love it. But I fear it may be too imbalanced.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:15 am

Could you go into a bit more detail about the build, like what you took?

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