Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:44 am

Okay: Traits:
Traits:

I Meant To Do That
Whenever you roll a 1 on a d8, d10 or d12; you may gain 1 pip.

King Of Fools
Once per round, whenever you roll a 1 on a d8, d10 or d12; you may activate one of your Special Moves at random.

Crushing Blow - Reaction (Certificate)
Trigger - You trigger your special move
Effect - Deal 1d12 damage to target creature

Special:
Be Prepared
8: Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.
10: Target creature gains 2d12 hp.
12: Target creature gains Resist 3d8 until the end of your next turn. In addition, until the end of the encounter you and up to six allies may use any combat talent that you possess - even if you did not select it for this battle.

So I rolled a Critfisher and got: 8, 8, 1, 4, 5

Activating 3 specials: 2d10 Damage, 3d12 Damage, and 3d8 Resistance.
Had another 12 Crit and an 8 crit and a 10 crit and rolled 2 1s on the other d8's and a 1 on a d10 (I know it was lucky)
It then chained a bit more getting another 8 crit and 3 more 1's
Totalling 7d12 damage + 4d10. Quite a bit of damage overall.
(May not have been the EXACT numbers, but I wasn't recording it. And I seem to only get a large burst in damage like that about 1 in every 10 - 15 tries. (Maybe crushing blow should be usable 1 time per round?)
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:47 am

SilentBelle wrote:So I rolled a Critfisher and got: 8, 8, 1, 4, 5

Activating 3 specials: 2d10 Damage, 3d12 Damage, and 3d8 Resistance.
Had another 12 Crit and an 8 crit and a 10 crit and rolled 2 1s on the other d8's and a 1 on a d10 (I know it was lucky)
It then chained a bit more getting another 8 crit and 3 more 1's
King Of Fools:
Once per round, whenever you roll a 1 on a d8, d10 or d12; you may activate one of your Special Moves at random...

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:49 am

Paper Shadow wrote:
SilentBelle wrote:So I rolled a Critfisher and got: 8, 8, 1, 4, 5

Activating 3 specials: 2d10 Damage, 3d12 Damage, and 3d8 Resistance.
Had another 12 Crit and an 8 crit and a 10 crit and rolled 2 1s on the other d8's and a 1 on a d10 (I know it was lucky)
It then chained a bit more getting another 8 crit and 3 more 1's
King Of Fools:
Once per round, whenever you roll a 1 on a d8, d10 or d12; you may activate one of your Special Moves at random...

Yes I know. It activated the 3d8 resist special. I only got pips from the 1's.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:50 am

SilentBelle wrote:
Paper Shadow wrote:
SilentBelle wrote:So I rolled a Critfisher and got: 8, 8, 1, 4, 5

Activating 3 specials: 2d10 Damage, 3d12 Damage, and 3d8 Resistance.
Had another 12 Crit and an 8 crit and a 10 crit and rolled 2 1s on the other d8's and a 1 on a d10 (I know it was lucky)
It then chained a bit more getting another 8 crit and 3 more 1's
King Of Fools:
Once per round, whenever you roll a 1 on a d8, d10 or d12; you may activate one of your Special Moves at random...

Yes I know. It activated the 3d8 resist special. I only got pips from the 1's.
Oh, my mistake...

I don't think this is a case of things being overpowered, I think it's just lucky dice rolls...

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:52 am

Critfisher is a bit overpowered at present actually. We just haven't decided on the best way to nerf it yet. And only the +1 version is overpowered as far as we can see.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  SilentBelle on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:58 am

Yeah, maybe make it 4 instead of 5 dice? Or maybe pay 2 pips to roll twice with both dice and use either result?
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  ZamuelNow on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:46 pm

...why exactly is Critfisher a +3? I'm new and all and while I understand the real possibility of it fizzling out and doing nothing, the benefits feel like they greatly outweigh the risks. It feels almost like it would be better suited as a +1 or so. The option to roll 5 dice would still be useful but there's risk rather than a no brainer.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  LoganAura on Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:52 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:...why exactly is Critfisher a +3? I'm new and all and while I understand the real possibility of it fizzling out and doing nothing, the benefits feel like they greatly outweigh the risks. It feels almost like it would be better suited as a +1 or so. The option to roll 5 dice would still be useful but there's risk rather than a no brainer.

Critfisher rolls two dice, and to put it simply unless you have things to reroll, it's going to fizzle almost all the time.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Hayatecooper on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:45 pm

Freds combat build in the other thread <--- focus on this part
http://ponytales.forumotion.com/t627p345-official-errata-suggestion-discussion-thread-changes-you-d-like-to-see-made
(Which can be nerfed essentially with the phrase: Wardens can't protect other wardens)

Oh and Fabricate(The Get out of whatever the hell you want card)

Lets look at fabricate shall we? just in terms of being an escape artists.
Fabricate:
Fabricate - 2/Day
Preparation Time: 5 Seconds  
You convert up to 30 cubic feet of material per level of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Thus you could fabricate a wooden bridge from a clump of trees, a rope from a patch of hemp etc. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate talent. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication, thus using rotten wood for construction would result in a rotten wooden bridge. You must make an appropriate skill check as if you were crafting the item by hoof to fabricate articles requiring a significant degree of craftsmanship (such as well-crafted weapons or a catapult).

So.
Want to escape a room? The door is now wooden marbles.. actually anything you want is essentially x element marbles. So that's 2 a day, have a buck ton of Marbles at your command and you essentially force the DM to bind you with Magic items to stop you doing stuff. Great fun.

Don't want to use it for escape purposes? You don't need to!
Have fun building bridges across gaps, Giant statues to Celestia made of dirt and as the talent describes giant catapults or hell a giant eagle and then have your twinked out Arcane mage spend two days to enchant and re-size the thing into a giiant living creature, cause why not?

Also feel free to not you only need 30 feet of the material, so you could quite easily use this to essentially open doors in the side or roof of the castle. Have fun breaking into things twice a day and making whatever your mind can dream up(Even better if you have Fracture the fourth wall).

Yes... I'm a little worried a "Create whatever you want out of whatever you want + an arcane mage" could break this talent wide open.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:02 am

I don't think 'Fabricate' makes life any harder for DMs than Phase Step does. Either adding magic to a prison or posting lethal guards outside the door is enough.

Now going over the rest.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:09 am

For the combat build, I'm not sure I fully understand its nuances - but it seems to function as a shield that uses Cutscene Immunity to keep your Spectral Wardens sheltered long enough for you to conjure new ones - while the Wardens keep you sheltered. However, it doesn't really seem to do much in a fight from what I can see - if it has to spend all or most of its time conjuring new wardens. Also, any non-attack power - such as a utility - can bypass the shield.

However, that puts the responsibility on the DM to work around it. I'm tempted to make things easier by just having Spectral Warden behave in the way it does in the tabletop game - having a 0 pip interrupt that lets it take an attack instead of you or an ally. That version also feels really fun to use, because you always have the ability to choose to expend your warden to take a particular attack for any one of you. More interesting than just having the warden passively spam heals for as long as possible, and less breakable.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:18 am

Also the major problem is that, the fact that this build was made broken without realizing how broken it was. and allowed a level 5 character to solo a level 10 boss... Just think about that for a bit.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:19 am

Well from what I gathered from seeing it in action, the issue is not JUST the warden, its all of them together. The warden keepos you from getting hit unnecessarily, and heals the damage from blood pact. Then whatever else is in the build allows you to put out small, meager amounts of damage, and all in conjunction, to most normal means of enemy offense, you're pretty much invulnerable, and you can just wear them down with 1d8 (or however much) damage every two turns or so. If they don't have a very specific way to counteract it (the way many enemies will lack various specific options in the interest of being beatable), then it won't get through, and you can solo a lvl 10.

It doesn't work as well out of 1 on 1, sure, but considering that the character with that build is supported by a dedicated tank that just laughs at so called "damage", the two of them together are nigh unstoppable. It might take hours, but we will win.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Hayatecooper on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:36 am

The Problem isn't the wardens Stairc, well not entirely.

basically the build functions like this

Make self invincible with wardens, then make those wardens invincible, summon Celestial Avengers(Activating the D12 move and whatever other damage output they have as much as possible also they can't be targeted thanks to cutscene), summon wardens on those(Note Gather Energy + Rabbit Filled hat makes this build option INSANE) and basically just stacking the crap out of everything so that you can't take hits and any hits you do take is essentially instantly healed.

And we could bring up Bronymous tank build, which essentially takes half damage, gains resist and regen but that's another kettle of fish entirely.

And "Make bosses that counteract it with ongoing or life loss"
Not always going to work, some bosses just won't do that cause it doesn't make sense for that character.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:39 am

Xel Unknown wrote:Also the major problem is that, the fact that this build was made broken without realizing how broken it was. and allowed a level 5 character to solo a level 10 boss... Just think about that for a bit.
 Yeah, that's always funny. The first time I actually played in the system, I made a character that people thought might be a bit overpowered when I explained it - but none of us realized what would happen. The guy dealt effectively infinite damage to an effectively infinite number of creatures, slapped resist on everyone, gained effectively infinite pips, healed effectively infinite HP, made the group effectively immune to save ends effects and a lot more all on his first turn.

Yeah... We kinda nerfed that stuff quick.

Blood Pact has already had a comment attached that explains why it doesn't stack with itself. And I think you'd find that with the wardens changed that way, the combo would come apart. After all, if a warden can only prevent 1 hit - not all hits - then all it takes is two attacks to deal damage.


Last edited by Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Hayatecooper on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:43 am

True.
And still keeps the fun of wardens, yay a change I'm looking forward to!
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  tygerburningbright on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:43 pm

Right then two person combo

Person 1 Crescendo, Inspiring Words, maybe Energizing Amulet and or Rapid Recovery.

Person 2  Be Prepared, Fool Me Once, I Meant To Do That, may add in Improved Defense for more D12 rolls Critfisher and Daggerstorm for actual moves.

Person 1 is to more or less spam all five parts of Crescendo onto Person 2 which gives them a total of 10D8 normally and a total of 20D8 if they had already roll a 1. This is almost sure to produce at least one one to keep it going and a good number of crits and pips.

Person 2 is to use the 5 dice version of Critfisher (to gather 1s and add more crits) and Daggerstorm (when possible) but mainly they are to just provide crits from the large number of dice that they are expected to be rolling from the Inspiring Words...


Sidenote:
A rather build slightly LESS efficient than this has reliably done 80-100 points of damage every turn or every other turn...
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:54 pm

Broken utility/racial combo I noticed.
Take Spellchild racial, Derp utility talent, and Magic element.
Choose Magic as the recipient for Spellchild.
You now have a 3/20 chance of skill failure.
Use Magic to grab
This is Whining! – 1/Day
Trigger – You roll a natural 1 on your Cutie Mark skill.
Effect: Treat the check as though you had rolled a natural 20.
every time you fail. While it's normally once per day, you lose it every five minutes. As there's no rules regarding uses on talents you don't actually have, one could interpret it as allowing you to use This is Whining three times per day rather than one, combining with derp to give you a 4/20 chance of a CMC on your expert skill three times per day. Add some of the re-roll racials and Awesomeness for extra absurdity.

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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:45 pm

Only issue with that, though, is you can't wait to see the results of a check, see that its a crit fail, and then use magic to take this is whining and activate it before the check resolves. So you'd have to have the foresight to know when to take This is Whining before hand- and usually, end up wasting your talent.

Unless you play it smart and keep a hold of it until you get to a check you KNOW you can't afford to crit fail, and then use it. But even then, you could still end up rolling a 4.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  sunbeam on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:10 pm

tygerburningbright wrote:Right then two person combo

Person 1 Crescendo, Inspiring Words, maybe Energizing Amulet and or Rapid Recovery.

Person 2  Be Prepared, Fool Me Once, I Meant To Do That, may add in Improved Defense for more D12 rolls Critfisher and Daggerstorm for actual moves.

Person 1 is to more or less spam all five parts of Crescendo onto Person 2 which gives them a total of 10D8 normally and a total of 20D8 if they had already roll a 1. This is almost sure to produce at least one one to keep it going and a good number of crits and pips.

Person 2 is to use the 5 dice version of Critfisher (to gather 1s and add more crits) and Daggerstorm (when possible) but mainly they are to just provide crits from the large number of dice that they are expected to be rolling from the Inspiring Words...


Sidenote:
A rather build slightly LESS efficient than this has reliably done 80-100 points of damage every turn or every other turn...
Crescendo doesn't count as a single-target power, even if you use all of it's abilities on one person. I asked because I wanted to do that with Grease, and I got shot down.


Last edited by sunbeam on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  tygerburningbright on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:13 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Crescendo makes 5 seperate effects, each of which can be used to target any valid creature. You can put all 5 on the same guy or target multiple guys as you see fit.
Appreantly it is an single target move...
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  thematthew on Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:36 am

It still isn't a single target ability. It has 5 targets, regardless of if they are all the same or not.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Z2 on Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:34 pm

Okay, I think it might be relevant to share the skype log as an explanation for this one:

Z2: And then everypony made every assist check forever:

Z2: Lead by Example - 3/Day Interrupt
Trigger - You roll to aid someone else's skill check, and you get a higher roll result on your die than the person you are assisting.
Effect - Swap the roll results.

Z2: Seriously, give that to every member of a party of six and suddenly you have ROLL 6 TIMES ON EVERY SKILL CHECK AND TAKE THE BEST RESULT

Xel Unknown: I don't see anything wrong with this....

Z2: ...Really?

Xel Unknown: I don't see anything wrong with it... After all I anything that makes people wanta do assist rolls is a good thing.

Z2: Okay, look at something like words of wisdom. That is a SIX point racial, and it gets you the ability to roll three times. AND it has to be used ahead of time. AND the player has to be able to meet some requirements themselves to try it. AND it only applies to the character who made the investment.

Z2: A single utility talent can easily be taken by every character in a party, the cost is nigh-irrelevant and the result is so much rerolling potential that it not only makes every other reroll talent totally irrelevant, but it makes the rolling itself nearly irrelevant.

Z2: If ONE assist specced party member took it, then that would be sort of appropriate; but it's just too abusable.

Xel: I believe utility resuse is a minor taboo...

Z2: But that's just it, it isn't reuse

Z2: everybody tries to assist, and then only the one with the highest roll has to use it because it's an interrupt.
It seems like a problem waiting to happen, and encourages DMs to actively try and prevent players from rolling assist checks...

It seems odd to specify that only one member of a party could take the utility talent, and making it a 'use beforehand' skill is overkill (and annoying besides.) It could probably be mitigated if you added a caveat that the replacement rolls can't trigger criticals of any kind...
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  ZamuelNow on Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:35 pm

While it's disappointing such constructive criticism didn't come up before the final submission, it's still stuff to think about. You'd hope a whole team wouldn't just grab it (and a GM can always say No) but some adjusting can certainly help. The original suggestion didn't have daily limits at all so it would have made the issue worse than it currently is. While it's effectively six rolls per skill check if the whole team takes it, it's limited to three skill checks. Reducing it to just 2/Day keeps it useful but lowers the dogpile effect. Likewise, you make a good point on not allowing the re-roll to count as a crit which would further reduce the desire to use it on everything. It would also help if assist rules got cleaned up, which I believe is in the works along with more info on the Heal skill.
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Re: Think you found something broken or severely overpowered? Share it here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:45 pm

Luckily, the whole system is still in alpha so we've got lots of room for constructive criticism in released content too.

We do have to anticipate the most extreme scenarios and balance for those as well. This talent is a very cool idea but definitely offers some current problems. We also don't want to merely 'patch' the problem (provide an extra ruling or small change that reduces the impact of the issue but doesn't truly eliminate it). Adding a provision that prevents it from triggering crits isn't going to really prevent people from rolling it for everything - as it can still save a crucial party member from a disastrous low role or natural 1 (provide some other bonus).

It's a fine line to walk between encouraging assist checks to be made but not encouraging so many that it means the game gets slowed down.

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