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Leveling Up - A Friendship Has Been Detected

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Jason Shadow
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:24 pm

Er...no I think Stairc's intent is that 10 is the max level. Not the max we're working with right now but, max level period. If I'm wrong about that, I haven't heard anything to suggest it but, then obviously my setup would be a bit overkill.
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Post  Videocrazy Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:33 pm

Well, here's my understanding of how the leveling system works:

Level 2: Combat Trait, Utility Talent
Level 3: Boon
Level 4: Destiny
Level 5: Combat Trait, Utility Talent
Level 6: Boon
Level 7: Destiny
Level 8: Combat Trait, Utility Talent
Level 9: Boon
Level 10: Destiny
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:37 pm

I was pretty sure that so far it doesn't work any particular way. Thus why we're offering ideas on how it should? Is that the way you want it to work or think it should? It seems a little dull and formulaic. (Not that there's anything wrong with formulaic structure inherently, it's just that getting the same three or four things repeatedly and nothing else can get a bit bland.)
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Post  Videocrazy Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:59 pm

Ramsus wrote:I was pretty sure that so far it doesn't work any particular way. Thus why we're offering ideas on how it should? Is that the way you want it to work or think it should? It seems a little dull and formulaic. (Not that there's anything wrong with formulaic structure inherently, it's just that getting the same three or four things repeatedly and nothing else can get a bit bland.)

That's the way it does.

Three's The Magic Number
Each of the three major elements of leveling up (gaining a trait and utility talent, gaining a Destiny feature and gaining a boon) will be paced 3 levels apart. For example, each Destiny will have features that unlock at level 4, level 7 and level 10. If Boons unlock at level 3, level 6 and level 9 - then the trait/utility pair would unlock at level 2, level 5 and level 8.

Furthermore, in Dan's game they've gotten the combat trait and utility talent, and they're deciding on their boon for today's game. So yes, I'm 100% sure that's how it works. And Destinies are three-tiered things. You pick one at level 4, and get good bonuses at level 4 and 7, according to the Destiny. At level 10, you achieve whatever your Destiny is, and get something crazy-strong.


With regular stat increases along the way on the other levels, such as:
Level 2: +5 hp
Level 3: increase damage/die for combat talents
Level 4: 2 attribute points. Cannot be used to raise an attribute higher than 10
Level 6: +5 hp
Level 7: increase damage/die for combat talents
Level 9: 2 attribute points. Attributes can now be raised higher than 10
And so on and so forth.

Dan chose not to give combat boosts from leveling up, instead opting to adjust encounters to show that things that used to give you trouble don't anymore.
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:04 pm

Hmm. Would have been nice if Stairc had actually posted something in here when he decided how leveling up was going to work so this discussion could have happened and ideas could have been tossed around before things were settled on. Not really sure what was the point in making this thread if he wasn't going to alert us to the ideas he had before they were finalized and made official.
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Post  Videocrazy Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:09 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Ramsus wrote:Hmm, the monster adjusting certainly works and is interesting.

Did you give any thought to "the boring stuff" not being "everyone gets this" and instead be options? Like say a choice between +10 health, +5 health +1 power, or +2 power? Or such? Though this would probably just end up being more bookkeeping and balancing to worry about. Still, figured I'd throw the idea out there anyway. It's good to at least say "yes, we had that thought and considered it".

Yep, we did think of that. That's what comes with the traits. But we are definitely worried about combat no longer being fun if things get completely out of whack and you can just boost health or just boost power.

I'm really tempted to go with Monster adjusting. It could very well work, if DMs make it clear that the monsters are changing in relationship to the players. And then I could go back and rewrite some of the talents to make them easier (weird traits and talents that refer to things like '1/5th your maximum hp' could just say, "6 hp" since they no longer have to scale to hp totals above 30.

Hmm... I like this idea more and more. I'm not certain players would appreciate it though unless it's very clear that the enemies they used to struggle against now go down in one hit.

I could be partially mistaken. I definitely know the HP boost was scrapped, and I THINK the damage boost was as well, on account of throwing combat talents out of balance somewhat.

But he has been talking about it, both here and in the Skype chat.
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Post  SilentBelle Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:18 pm

I assume there are still some kinks being worked out in the system, otherwise he would have posted the official system already. Perhaps he's using his group as the guinea pigs to figure out if there needs to be a balance change. Plus, I don't know if they have enough of the higher-level traits, or the destinies fully worked out yet. I know that he'll give us an official update when we can use it properly. Like he has for level 2 and 3. These things take quite a bit of time, in fact I'm surprised at how quickly this whole thing is coming along. He gets a large amount of kudos from me Smile
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:39 pm

Videocrazy, I think you're confusing the amount of info he's given people in his game with how much he has the rest of us.

I don't see anywhere in this thread any discussion of what leveling up would look like in total from 1-10. He's mentioned level 2 and 3 but, that's it.

I think it flies in the face of the point of making this forum to discuss ideas to see if people like them and if they work or not to just decide on his own. Maybe he's discussed ideas with you guys in his game? He certainly hasn't with the rest of us, and why are your opinions worth giving a chance to voice any more than the rest of ours? From my point of view we went from "no idea how it will work" to "I have some beta version ideas for the first two level ups" to "Ok, we're all done now. Thanks for all your input that you had no chance to give folks."

Of course, I should keep in mind Stairc hasn't said anything in response to any of this. For all I know he's just working with his beta version ideas with you guys and you're just assuming that's the finalized official version. Which I honestly hope is the case. Not because I would find that version too horrible to work with but, just because if we're going to have this forum the rest of us really should get a chance to discuss things this important before official versions are made.

Edit: Oh....oops. Somehow I forgot entirely about the first post. Wow...so he just....made those calls without anyone getting a say right from the start. Well then... *throws hands up in the air* I give up. I don't see how any of us can help on anything important if decisions that important are made without any sort of discussion at all.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:24 pm

I'm afraid Ramsus that you might be confused as to how this is working.

The way it works right now is like this.

1) People contribute ideas for game mechanics. These might come from anyone on the forum, or they might come from my own design sessions (the way the entire system originally came from my own design sessions with Carson Dougan and Alex Wagner).

2) Once ideas have been designed and the person designing them feels ready to present them, they're posted on the forums for people to examine. There's no need for all brainstorming to happen on the forums, if people want to post very rough versions of mechanics for general feedback; that's fine. If they want to wait until the idea is more polished, that's fine too.

3) Playtesting or discussion goes on until I feel ready to give the idea the Stairc seal of approval. At that point it gets prepared for an official update.


For the level-up system, that too has followed this process.

1) I and some of my friends have been working hard on our own time to come up with ideas we like for the level-up system. Once I and Newbiespud came up with a system we really liked, we posted it for the forum to see what we were thinking and get feedback.

2) Feedback was very positive so I started designing the traits for level 2 with Carson Dougan on our own time. Once we got something we felt was ready to share, we posted it for feedback. Feedback has also been positive, but I'm still leaving the door open for more of it. Those traits haven't been made official yet. The same thing is happening for Boons and will happen for Destinies too.

3) Eventually, once the system has been throroughly built and revised this way - I'll be satisfied enough with it to announce it as an official update. After that, details can still change about it (even the Player's Handbook has changed a lot based on community feedback). That's the beauty of an ever-evolving project.


If you feel you can't work on this kind of project, that's too bad.
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:07 pm

*shrug* Well, the problem is really just that I thought you were allowing us more control over this than it turns out you are. I had originally thought your opening post was just your ideas on the subject, not what you had already decided what was going to happen. And, I really don't think it's fair to have discussions in games and not share the results of those discussions with the rest of us before making decisions based on them if you're still asking us to give input. It's kind of impossible for those of us on the forum to comment on ideas that nobody ever shared with us and yet, we have to live with those results without having any idea of how they came about.

As far as Destinies you haven't shown us on the forums anything about those yet. Is that going to end up with their format and such entirely decided before any of us even get to hear about those ideas too?

This design system is somewhat like asking us to all move in with you with the premise that we'll all have to help paint and furnish the house. Then you went a bought the paint without asking anybody what they wanted and had a private discussion with a few people about who got which rooms. All that's left for the rest of us is the work of painting (even if we don't like the color at all) and the occasional choice of what furniture to buy.

In other words, we all have to live with the system once it's finished and you invited us here to help work on it but, you're denying most of us a lot of say in anything that matters. It's fine that you're the one who says what goes into it in the end and what doesn't (someone has to afterall) but, it's kind of mean that a lot of us are denied the chance to even give input on things we might feel are important before they're finalized. Sure, it's your project and you're allowed to run it how you want but, you're going to end up with less people happy with the result that way
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:11 pm

Ramsus, I think you misread my last post.

The OP was indeed the ideas Newbiespud and I cooked up. We worked them out until they satisfied us and then shared them with the community (by posting them the very night we came up with them). People liked them, so we decided to go with that structure.

Eventually we have to make decisions, we can't keep chasing ideas around forever. Otherwise, no official updates would ever be made.
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Post  Videocrazy Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:27 pm

Ramsus, Stairc's done nothing BUT work with other people. He works with other people when creating the framework and running through game theory and balance. He works with other people in the initial design, when he makes new talents/traits/destinies/etc. as examples and basics. He works with other people when they look at those basic elements, think "What if we tried this", and submit it for review. He works with other people when they bring up flaws in the current design. He has been doing nothing BUT work with other people for the entire duration, in order to create a game that all types of people would find fun (while still having a balanced game), and to say otherwise is both insulting to him, and every single person on this forum.
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:29 pm

*shrug* As far as I'm aware I'm still the first person to suggest an alternate way to what you suggested in the first post. Of course most people are going to support the only option they see if it's not obviously broken. And I'm not saying there's anything horribly wrong with it. Just that I wanted to suggest something else that worked with the same ideas but just involved people getting more stuff overall. And the response I got that that was not a single comment on what anyone thought about my ideas. Just "too late now". Which, I honestly don't see why it is. My suggestion for level 2 was identical and level 3 only slightly different. And nobody has even reached higher levels than that yet so, it seems like really we still should have time to discuss these things. Also of course, we've already embraced the ideas of eratta so really, nothing should ever be officially closed for discussion.

Edit: Videocrazy, your angry tirade at me for daring to want a chance to express opinions is highly unnecessary. I'm not going to apologize for thinking that people on the forum and people in games should have their ideas cross paths before decisions are made. I never said Stairc did not work with people. I just made commentary on a flaw in his approach on how he does so.
Edit 2: And don't say I'm insulting everyone else. You can feel insulted if you like. I don't really care since all you've had to say to me was "no, it's too late for you to have opinions" and didn't even bother commenting on my suggestion otherwise.

Edit 3: Or is what I did that really bothered you was that I just didn't show proper reverence for the creator of the system? Because that's not a thing I do. I've made my own systems before. There's nothing about doing something right, no matter how awesomely you do it, that says every other decisions you make afterwards is flawless. It's great that Stairc puts so much effort into this system. It really is. But, he's one of the creator's. He has a personal stake in it's success or failure. If someone who didn't have that kind of stake in it made that same kind of effort now THAT would be amazing and really praiseworthy. Until such a time as Stairc cures cancer and makes a clean unlimited energy source I will continue to treat him like any other human being. Sorry if that bothers you. (Ok, actually I'm not sorry at all.)
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:44 pm

Nothing ever is officially closed for discussion. I've emphasized this in my last posts in this thread.

However, if someone wants to propose a significant change over what I've already approved (for example - that Pony Tales should have a class system) then that person has to accept that not everyone might want to spend time working on the proposed change.

Ramsus, no one's going on a tirade against your opinions. People just don't seem to agree that your opinions are being restrained*. Feel free to keep discussing them as much as you want. But, like all design teams, eventually decisions have to be made about a direction to go in. If you want to keep working on a side-system and developing it, that will be fine - you won't have to go with the ideas I like. If you want to develop an entire homebrew version of Pony Tales on these very forums, that'd be neat too - Newbiespud is doing exactly that.

No one's restricting your opinion.


*: This sentence edited for clarity


Last edited by Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:48 pm

Ok, now that you've made it clear that nobody is restricting my opinions would you deign to at least friggin comment on them? *annoyed* (I only had to ask like three times now? I'm sure that's the treatment everyone expects when they voice an opinion right?)

Edit: Wait, what do you mean nobody seems to agree with me? So far nobody actually even bothered acknowledging what I proposed. As far as I know people's stance on what I suggested as far as agree or disagree goes was "banana sundae".

Edit 2: Also it's been, what, 8 hours since I posted it? That seems like a really tiny window of time for "everyone" to have had a chance to even notice I said something, let alone express an opinion.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:03 pm

Ramsus, you can't expect me to respond to every design idea made by everyone. Heck, I don't even always have time to read every post in the forum. Especially when I've already given you about a quarter of all online attention in the last few days. Some other people deserve a turn too.

I'm also preparing for my Pony Tales session right now, which starts in a few hours. I also am trying to compile the utility talent expansion people have been asking for and am working on designing a rough draft of a list of Destinies.

Nevertheless, I'll give you one last short answer for now.

Short Answer: There's nothing really wrong with your level-up table, and we agree on a lot of the overall goals for the system. 10 levels in the core (I'd be happy to see people make higher level content too), not getting the usual number-boosts and all that. I'm not too wild about giving out as many utility talents as you've mentioned - because the destiny features and boons will also serve a similar role (destiny features are, under my current concept, going to function like exceptionally powerful utility talents). Boons are like an out-of-combat resource for the whole group... So you're already getting an out-of-combat boost every single level.

The extra skill training I'm also not wild about, since I don't feel it's that exciting and it can be done through utility talents too. It's fine and could work into the system - but I don't see it adding a huge amount. Destinies, boons and utility talents are probably going to offer ways to boost skills - so while extra training is fine; I don't feel like it adds much and I don't feel like it's a really exciting choice to make. So I'd rather keep that out of the system for now, if it's not amazing I like to keep it out - so the system feels simple and elegant.

As for your boost spreads, I like the symmetry of gaining each boost every 3 levels. Spreads out the boosts reliably and is simple to remember what you gain at which level. I don't see a real reason to make a more complex arrangement.

Your ideas are fine, but I don't see a huge reason to throw out the existing structure and embrace them instead - for the reasons stated.

That's all I can say about your leveling-proposal right now, for the reasons I listed at the start of my post. Please don't take my lack of response to your points as you being 'not allowed to have an opinion'.
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Post  Ramsus Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:43 pm

Ah, well taking into consideration that that's what you want to do with Destinies the fewer utilities makes some sense to me now. I must have missed the Utilities that add extra training (it's not like I've read everything). Though if it's possible through those and destinies than yeah, it'd be totally unnecessary. (I did sorta like my second cutie mark skill idea but, that could easily wind up in destinies too.)

Also, lol. I wasn't saying you specifically had to comment on it. I just wanted someone to. (And as far as chewing up online time, I've devoted a lot of mine to you too. Even stayed up way later than I should because of it twice.)

I still do find the levels with just Boon gain a little lacking though since that's just one thing for everyone where other levels you're getting one thing per person. *shrug* Still, better to leave that as is than added in random number boosts or something.

As for designing other settings with customized rulesets...well, if I have enough time I probably will. Though that could just as easily result throwing out the entirety of the core game's leveling up rules depending on what it was so, any ideas I have for the core rules are probably only going to apply to it. (Though right now the only two non-base settings I'm really interested in seeing are Fallout and Equestria Divided (which probably doesn't need alternate rules aside from call Harmony something else or just ignoring that it's called that).)
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Post  The Warrior of Many Faces Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:39 am

Ramsus wrote:Ok, now that you've made it clear that nobody is restricting my opinions would you deign to at least friggin comment on them? *annoyed* (I only had to ask like three times now? I'm sure that's the treatment everyone expects when they voice an opinion right?)

Edit: Wait, what do you mean nobody seems to agree with me? So far nobody actually even bothered acknowledging what I proposed. As far as I know people's stance on what I suggested as far as agree or disagree goes was "banana sundae".

Edit 2: Also it's been, what, 8 hours since I posted it? That seems like a really tiny window of time for "everyone" to have had a chance to even notice I said something, let alone express an opinion.

Hey, Ramsus? I can't speak for anypony else, but I'm not commenting because I really didn't want to get dragged into an argument. That's why I haven't commented at all on this. It might be the same for everypony else.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Considering that the vast majority of level-up bonuses are out of combat (traits are the only combat bonuses, while utility talents, boons and destinies are all out-of-combat) I think there should probably be an additional part of the level-up process that adds a bit more punch to combat.

I have some ideas, but I’m curious – what do you all think is the best way to do this?
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Post  Philadelphus Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:39 pm

Just for clarification, is what Videocrazy posted on page the four the current setup for what you get at each level (trait & utility talent, boon, destiny, repeat)? And would it perhaps be possible to put a list like that somewhere easy to access, either in the original post of this thread or a separate dedicated thread (or even in the player's handbook)?

If that is the current setup, the main critique I'd have is the levels where you get boons – while it'll be fun and I'm sure spark a lot of great group dialog, the players aren't getting anything for themselves individually. I'm afraid I don't have ideas off the top of my head for combat level-up bonuses, but might I suggest that they (whatever "they" are) be given at the same time as boons, just so players feel like their character, individually, is improving at each level? Even if it's just a small boost, I like the idea that my character personally improves every time he levels up. The whole boon idea is great, and I love it, I just think it might be nice to have some personal choice or flat bonus applied as well. Just my 2¢.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:49 pm

1) Yep, this is the setup.

Level 2: Gain a Combat Trait and a Utility Talent
Level 3: Your Party Gains a Boon
Level 4: Choose Your Destiny
Level 5: Gain a Combat Trait and a Utility Talent
Level 6: Your Party Gains a Boon
Level 7: Gain Your Level 7 Destiny Feature
Level 8: Gain a Combat Trait and a Utility Talent
Level 9: Your Party Gains a Boon
Level 10: Gain Your Level 10 Destiny Feature

2) That could work well. Since Destiny features are so powerful and boons are purely flavorful, that could be a great place to put whatever combat bonus should be added to the system.
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Post  Ramsus Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:31 pm

Hmmmm, I don't have any brilliant ideas but...perhaps some sort of Daily combat abilities? Because Combat Traits really do give everything you'd want as a passive buffs and the like.
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