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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  LoganAura on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:11 pm

Fury, stop right now.

People are reading, and they understand. The issue here is you aren't understanding that when five different people have said that your idea is broken with evidence and examples to back it up, that it should be allowed since you say it would make the game more flexible- Which it would, to the point where that build is completely and utterly broken and unpredictable.

Do not bring up this "Editing true shifter" Idea anymore, especially if you continue writing aggressively.

"6. No throwing fits if your game design suggestion is turned down. Not everything can be incorporated into the official handbook." It is an actual rule.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Ramsus on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:14 pm

I think it may be you who is not listening. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we aren't listening.

1) Breaks things exactly in the ways we've been telling you it does.
2) Breaks something that works for everyone but you simply to please you in a scenario that will rarely come up. No. Why on earth(pony) would we cripple True Shifters who don't take Evolution in favor of those who do?

It doesn't matter what your intent is, what you're asking for will decrease system stability and break things in places where it already worked fine, which are the majority cases at this point.

Edit: Gah, ninja'd. Right, I'm backing away from this conversation now. Don't want Logan to slip and accidentally ban me or something.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Nehiel Mori on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:36 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:... That's only if you got absolutely BERSERK with that ability. And what happens when you start going BERSERK with an ability like that, and start abusing the fuck out of something?

The DM Hammer comes down on you. HARD.

Another core tenant of our system is making things as easy for the DM as possible. After all, they've got enough to worry about designing adventures we don't want to make them have to grapple with the system or one player being too powerful.

We always balance things for the worst possible outcome. We want to let players be able to abuse things and it be okay because we balance for abuse. You yourself say here that if players go berserk with this change its okay because the DM can always balance you out. Well, while thats all fine and dandy, thats not good design and its not good for our system. This, right here, is enough of a reason to never allow this change. The system should not require the DM to make it fair.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:17 pm

... Sorry about that.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:20 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:... Sorry about that.

The offending post has been deleted. Profanity and screaming at the forums is not okay in any circumstance. This is an official warning - the next warning will result in a temporary 24 hour ban (it's forum rules). I get you're frustrated Tempest, but I really don't understand why you think no one's listening to you. It seems that people have been addressing your points, so if they aren't - it's got to be out of honest misunderstanding and not malice.

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:23 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:... Sorry about that.

The offending post has been deleted. Profanity and screaming at the forums is not okay in any circumstance.

Yeah, I know I know...

Just... gah... I understands peoples concerns, I read what people post.

Which is why I post compromises and tweaks for those concerns, but no one seems to notice them.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:25 pm

I think there's just some honest confusion happening, because it even seems to *me* that they're addressing your points - so if they aren't it has to be an honest misunderstanding.

Thank you for apologizing either way.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:28 pm

Well... they point out that my suggestion would allow true-shifting to be abused as hell with the lvl 10 evolution destiny.

I reply by a suggestion that morph and true-shifting can't be used on the same day as one another or/and that true-shifting only being useable once per day.

Yet no one seemed to acknowledge it.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:32 pm

I thought that you wanted to allow people to apply extra racial traits above 8 when they transform into, say, a pegasai's form with true shifter. What change precisely are you suggesting?
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Nehiel Mori on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:33 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote: I'M GETTING ANGRY BECAUSE NO. ONE. READS. MY. POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Untrue. I quoted you in one of my responses; how could I do that without reading your post? Regardless, lets look over your suggestions.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Or Morph is modified slightly so you cannot use morph and true-shifting in the same day. Problem solved.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:And even if you still use multiple magic points to use true-shifter multiple times a day, that can be rectified by saying you can only use true-shifting once per day or something.
[/color]

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Number 1. Make True-shifting include additional racial points if you get those racial points.

Number 2. Make True-shifting work only once per day & with the magic point cost. Even with the magic-point cost, it still too powerful. Plus, something like true-shifting would take a lot of time and effort to maintain, so I don't see people being able to shift multiple times a day. Not to mention this eliminates the problems people have with the number 1 change (mostly, and that can be fixed by morph disallowing true-shifting to be used on the same day)

You want us to nerf morph and true shifting, only making you able to use either of them once a day while still keeping the magic point cost of True Shifting.

No.

This is a very painful nerf to normal changeling players. The True Shifter+Derp combo (or Whirlygig) is perfectly fine. We've never had an issue with that and its fun for the people who do use it. This change you are proposing to make A build work will negatively effect other players, including those who take evolution and true shifter. Your compromise suggested here does not work.

Even then, that build is still doing more then we want it to do. You listed off all of the level 10 features of destinies toting how powerful they are. And yeah, they are cool, but alot of that is flavor. For example, creating your own plane. What does that actually allow you to do? You have a place you can run to, and live a pretty awesome retirement, but anything you create in your plane cannot be brought over to the real world. Honestly, the planeshaper destiny just gives you the best house in the world. Arch-Lich? A form of Puesdo-Immortality. By the time you get it, it really wont matter that much longer. Now, being able to walk around with 15 racials then *poof* as you are about to die into a race with 9 lives has much more of a gameplay impact on your power then having a phylactery (which can be destroyed if the DM wants) that will let you resurrect far away from your allies.

This proposed change would turn True Shifters into walking gods that can shift around a silly amount of racials points at will. Your compromise by saying they can only shift once hurts all other True Shifters and even being able to shift around that many racials points just once at will is silly good.

It costs about a magic point to shift around ONE utility talent for a new one. This would allow you to shift around upwards to 15 utility talents at the cost of a magic point. Even once per day, thats 15x as powerful as the base ability to do this. Changelings are already one of the strongest races, this would make them to good. If you were playing, and you were not a changeling, you'd be playing incorrectly. If you were playing a changeling and not taking Evolution then you are playing poorly. This change EVEN with your suggested only doing it once per day makes the most powerful choice, the best way to play the system, to be a changeling with Evolution.

(8+3+12=23. 23/1.5=15.333)
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:39 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I thought that you wanted to allow people to apply extra racial traits above 8 when they transform into, say, a pegasai's form with true shifter. What change precisely are you suggesting?

That is my suggestion. If you have extra racial traits.

People where concerned that with the evolution lvl 10, a mid-session morph via true-shifting would be broken. So I made several suggestions to fix it, yet no one seemed to listen to them.

Through I'm going to restrain from addressing Nehiel as he AGAIN seems to focus on something which I've suggested a fix for...

And yes, I know he also addressed my suggested fixes, but that wasn't what most of his posting adressed. Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly because I'm hurrying here.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Nehiel Mori on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:43 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I thought that you wanted to allow people to apply extra racial traits above 8 when they transform into, say, a pegasai's form with true shifter. What change precisely are you suggesting?

That is my suggestion. If you have extra racial traits.

People where concerned that with the evolution lvl 10, a mid-session morph via true-shifting would be broken. So I made several suggestions to fix it, yet no one seemed to listen to them.

Through I'm going to restrain from addressing Nehiel as he AGAIN seems to focus on something which I've suggested a fix for...

And yes, I know he also addressed my suggested fixes, but that wasn't what most of his posting adressed. Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly because I'm hurrying here.

I'll paraphrase. You suggestion doesn't work because it nerfs changeling players who do not need to be nerfed.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:47 pm

Nyeh... I guess its mostly opinion.

When it comes down to it. I just HATE it when a destiny is designed in such a way that Self-Discovery can't use its lvl 7 ability to its fullest without its level 4
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Nehiel Mori on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:49 pm

Sorry man. Dem's the breaks. If we designed every destiny to work with self discovery that cuts down on alot of design space
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:50 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
That is my suggestion. If you have extra racial traits.

People where concerned that with the evolution lvl 10, a mid-session morph via true-shifting would be broken. So I made several suggestions to fix it, yet no one seemed to listen to them.

Through I'm going to restrain from addressing Nehiel as he AGAIN seems to focus on something which I've suggested a fix for...

And yes, I know he also addressed my suggested fixes, but that wasn't what most of his posting adressed. Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly because I'm hurrying here.

I have to agree with Nehiel here. By attempting to make a very particular build more powerful, your suggestion would hurt a lot more general and fair builds. This is the opposite of the reason we make a change regarding power level. We make a change to something's power if it makes a specific build way too powerful, and we try to make the change in a way that helps make fair builds more flexible or accessible. This change would hurt a large amount of fair builds to help a small amount of high level builds - so much help that many people feel would be overpowered.

In short, it's not an attractive fix.

And I have to say, when you've so recently complained about how you think people aren't reading your posts or addressing your points... Not reading Nehiel's post in which he addresses your points or responding to him isn't a great way to gain credibility.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:52 pm

Yeah... I know.

Also wish its lvl 7 ability fells a bit more like a lvl 7 ability.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:19 am

What does and doesn't a morale boost do? I mean, I've got an idea based on context clues and how such a thing would work in other systems but just trying to clarify. Perhaps this should be given an official spot in the keywords section.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Kindulas on Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:37 am

ZamuelNow wrote:What does and doesn't a morale boost do? I mean, I've got an idea based on context clues and how such a thing would work in other systems but just trying to clarify. Perhaps this should be given an official spot in the keywords section.
Technically, the word doesn't *really* mean anything yet. It's there is we determine they need to be incapable of stacking and for flavor explanation, but so far that stacking rule hasn't been put into effect.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:18 pm

Interesting. I would have thought that they stack since it's non combat and most boosts seem to be low. Then again, most other stuff in the system doesn't stack so I could see that as well.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Paper Shadow on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:28 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:Interesting. I would have thought that they stack since it's non combat and most boosts seem to be low. Then again, most other stuff in the system doesn't stack so I could see that as well.
I believe morale boosts from different sources stack, so with Instant-Party, Grandeur, and Party Everyday, you give a +3 morale boost overall. However, with two Instant-Parties, or two races with Grandeur, those effects don't stack...

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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:52 pm

[+1] Craft Acidic Addendum - Standard Utility
You craft one vial of, “Acidic Addendum”. You may expend a vial of, “Acidic Addendum” to use the combat talent below.

[0] Acidic Addendum - Free Utility
Trigger - You make an attack that has only one target.
Effect - The attack causes the target to suffer 5 ongoing damage (save ends), in addition to its other effects.
[-X] Drain Blood - Minor Attack
Deal X damage to target creature. Target creature gains X+2 life. X cannot be less than 1.
Can these two talent's combo?
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:58 pm

Drain blood is certainly an attack. Using Acidic Addendum with it wouldn't cause you to gain any additional life of course.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:02 pm

X+2 life from Drain Blood? I didn't not know that. Cool!
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Nehiel Mori on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:37 pm

Funnily enough, Drain Blood is most efficient when you only spend one pip on it.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:40 pm

Nehiel Mori wrote:Funnily enough, Drain Blood is most efficient when you only spend one pip on it.

That does not surprise me, but the flexibility is awesome.
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Re: Ask a Simple Question - Get a Simple Answer

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