The Adventurer Destiny

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The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:37 am

So here's the thing. I believe there is call for a universally useful, flavor neutral "catch-all" destiny.
Too often I've built a character only to find no destiny really fits. They're typically quite specialized - and rightfully so. But shouldn't there be an awesome destiny that works for anyone? One so that, if nothing fits, you can just take this catch-all destiny - and yet have the destiny be so good you don't at all feel dissapointed about not finding a super fitting one, and might even be the envy of some?
And how annoying is it that the explorer is so lame but has one of the best level 10s in the game? Especially one so universally useful? Looking at it, it inspired the idea of a "You're just amazingly good at stuff" destiny. So, I took it and build level 4 and 7 features based on it's universally epic feel. I bring you: The Adventurer

Adventurer
You’re an adventurer, the quintessential hero. Delving dungeons, defeating monsters, saving cities and exploring endless vistas - whatever your style, you do it all.

Level 4 - Hero
You’ve been on a great deal of quests and adventures, and you’ve become more skilled than the average person. Adventuring is demanding, and you’ve learned to master yourself in a variety of ways. You gain 3 additional attribute points. You may allocate them however you like right away. (You cannot exceed normal maximums, however.)
EDIT: You gain the following utility talent:
Great Expertise - 2/Day Interrupt
The next time you would make a skill check for your expert.Cutie Mark skill, Roll 2d20 instead of 1d20 and add the results. If you roll a 20 on either die, it's a critical success. If you roll a 1 on either die, it's a critical failure. If you roll 20 on one die but 1 on the other, it is neither a critical success or a critical failure. If you roll a natural 20 on both dice, you gain a magic point.

Level 7 - Paragon
A Paragon of adventurers needs to be ready for anything. Specialization in a single skill is not enough for the trials you face. As such, your range of skills goes above and beyond what others can hope to achieve. You gain an expert skill, even if you already have one.

Level 10 - Epic Adventurer
You’ve reached the pinnacle of adventuring expertise. Your experience is so broad and your abilities so grand that no challenge is too great for your skill. You gain the following utility talent
---Epicness - 3/Day Interrupt
---Trigger - You would roll a d20 for a skill check
---Effect - Treat the result as though you rolled a natural 20. This does not trigger a spectacular success.

So what do you all think? Is there a call for such general, flavorless destiny? Or does it lack the necessary style?
Does it need tweaks? Any ideas on how it could be different, if it should be?
(If this goes in, Explorer will be cut or reworked. Does anyone care enough about it for it to remain? I had an idea for a kind of similar destiny based on super-long-range teleportation and travel abilities that could fit some explorer types.


Last edited by Kindulas on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Paper Shadow on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:38 am

I thought Self-Discovery was the Catch-All Destiny. Also, what character archtypes are there where you can't find a flavour that fits, especially in a game where reflavouring is not only allowed but encouraged?

Anyway, I think the main problem with the Explorer Destiny is the Level 7 Feature. It's very dull to look at. The Level 4 one is fine; you get a talent where you learn every major geographical feature in a mile, and the ability the create well-concealed shelter. That's just as good as many of the other Level 4 destinies. And you said that the Level 10 Feature is one of the best in the game. However, if we look at the Level 7 Feature, we see that all you gain is two situational +10 Streetwise check bonuses, and an increased DC on something which already has an obscenely large DC. If anything needs to change or be made more interesting, it'd be that...

Not to say that this destiny is bad or anything, I was just commenting on your comments before it...

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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:01 am

Well, Self-Discovery rather IS the catch-all destiny right now, but I'm not particularly satisfied with it.
And as far as your comment about how flavor is so malleable, that IS very true - however, the abilities are often quite specific, or at least semi-specific. They revolve either around certain skills, or they do very specific things. This destiny is general in function as well as form. it doesn't just fit any character, it's useful to any build.

And yes, the level 7 explorer is the glaring problem, but level 4 has fairly limited usefulness too. I suppose some parties play in the style that shelter and supplies and things is important, but I can't every really see the shelter thing being used unless the DM build one in. Maybe if we're on the run from someone, but usually they'd catch up to you in 10 minutes. As far as the geo features go, I mean, that's the kind of thing you DM would probably just tell you if you say you look, how much further does the destiny feature really get you?
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  tygerburningbright on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:01 am

I can not truly see anything that is mechanically bad with this its just it doesn't seem that special. It just doesn't really have anything that is good draw outside of the mechanical effects. It is bare bones that the moment.

Side note just realized level seven might be troublesome lore wise unless a custom or non pony setting is used...
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Philadelphus on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:27 pm

I'm a little curious what you mean by "normal maximums" in the level 4 feature of this destiny. I assume that means no more than 10 in an Attribute, unless you have Specialist in which case no more than 12?

I would argue that this effectively limits the power of the feature a bit, since if someone want to specialize, they'll likely have already put 10 points into an Attribute, leaving them no choice but to use the points on other Attributes rather than become more powerful at the one thing they might especially want to become even better at. That may be the intent, of course, I just think it limits its appeal somewhat for those who might have already maxed out an Attribute and want to improve it even more.

Of course, there are plenty of people who don't max out an Attribute at character creation, and who would thus probably have no problems with this, so if you're afraid of people min-maxing too much with it by letting them exceed the normal maximums, I can definitely see that side of things too.

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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Grey Pen The Flawed on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:44 pm

My only suggestion is that you switch the Level 4 and 7 features.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:46 pm

I'd think the level ten of this would cheapen the Explorer's Level Ten because they're basically the same thing.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  sunbeam on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:08 pm

I really like this Destiny. I want it for my Jack of all trades character, badly. Now that I've gotten that out of the way, on to substantive information.

-The level 7 ability should be okay as long as it's just another expert skill. There are plenty of ponies who are really good at something besides their cutie mark. Having said that, there should probably be a line explicitly stating "If you already have a CM/ES, you gain a second one that applies to a different skill.

-Despite the wow factor of a destiny giving you an expert skill, I think the level 7 destiny might be a touch mechanically underpowered. Here's a breakdown:
Level 4 is supposed to be worth about 4 racial points. Best of the Breed is a 3 point racial trait, and this is 1.5 times the amount of best of the breed. So, 4.5 racial points. Close enough.
Level 7 is supposed to be worth 4 racial points as well, but an Expert Skill is only worth 2. Below baseline.
Level 10 is supposed to be worth 8 racial points. If there's any one ability that's worth 8 racial points, it's this one. There are a number of other abilities that replace die rolls with stored rolls of all sorts, but even the level 10 destinies that do that, like metagamer, are supplemented by other abilities, and nothing comes close to this as far as a single ability goes. So we'll count that as a clean 8, maybe a little higher.
Current total: 14.5/16 racial points. Arguably 15/16 racial points.

I think the best thing to try adding to the level 7 would just be an additional training. It's worth 1 racial point, it increases skill monkey potential even further, and the level 7 feature already has the wow factor of an extra expert skill. My jaw hit the floor when I saw that.

Flavorwise, I'm ambivalent. It's definitely supposed to be an "open option/blank slate" sort of destiny, and the mechanical benefits add the needed flair, but right now it could easily be considered the munchkin destiny. It immediately appears strong, it carries little blatant roleplaying details, and the flavor text basically says "You are better at stuff."

Having said that, with Pony Tales reflavoring mechanics, it does work. It's almost making leveling up function like a normal tabletop game, where your basic numbers go up.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Nehiel Mori on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:12 pm

Just to clarify

Levels 4 and 7 are supposed to be worth two utility talents and a racial point is worth 1.5 Utility talents, so 3 racial points=destiny
Level 10 is balanced against other level 10's. There is no actual hard-set number for how much power level 10 is supposed to be worth. As long as its balanced with other level 10's.

Expert skill is severely under costed (on purpose.) It is by far the best two point racial and it is worth more then two points.

And now I return to my Boon work.

Edit: Because I can't math.


Last edited by Nehiel Mori on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Paper Shadow on Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:16 pm

tygerburningbright wrote:Side note just realized level seven might be troublesome lore wise unless a custom or non pony setting is used...
Not really. Everything can be reflavoured, and races that don't have Cutie Marks can get a Cutie Mark skill without actually getting a Cutie Mark...

Philadelphus wrote:I would argue that this effectively limits the power of the feature a bit, since if someone want to specialize, they'll likely have already put 10 points into an Attribute, leaving them no choice but to use the points on other Attributes rather than become more powerful at the one thing they might especially want to become even better at. That may be the intent, of course, I just think it limits its appeal somewhat for those who might have already maxed out an Attribute and want to improve it even more.
Maybe, but chances are, there are already better destinies for a mix-maxer. Even then, when in doubt, pump more points in Horse-Sense...

Grey Pen The Flawed wrote:My only suggestion is that you switch the Level 4 and 7 features.
Nice try, Level 7 Self-Destiny Character. While, yes, three attribute points is technically worth three racial points, while a Cutie Mark is technically worth two, if you already have a Cutie Mark, this gives a second. And you can't put a price on having a second Cutie Mark. Sadly...

Xel Unknown wrote:I'd think the level ten of this would cheapen the Explorer's Level Ten because they're basically the same thing.
Kindulas wrote:(If this goes in, Explorer will be cut or reworked. Does anyone care enough about it for it to remain? I had an idea for a kind of similar destiny based on super-long-range teleportation and travel abilities that could fit some explorer types.

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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:00 pm

Philadelphus wrote:I'm a little curious what you mean by "normal maximums" in the level 4 feature of this destiny. I assume that means no more than 10 in an Attribute, unless you have Specialist in which case no more than 12?

I would argue that this effectively limits the power of the feature a bit, since if someone want to specialize, they'll likely have already put 10 points into an Attribute, leaving them no choice but to use the points on other Attributes rather than become more powerful at the one thing they might especially want to become even better at. That may be the intent, of course, I just think it limits its appeal somewhat for those who might have already maxed out an Attribute and want to improve it even more.

Of course, there are plenty of people who don't max out an Attribute at character creation, and who would thus probably have no problems with this, so if you're afraid of people min-maxing too much with it by letting them exceed the normal maximums, I can definitely see that side of things too.

I totally understand, however, if it did allow you to go over that limit, anyone wanting to max out their passive skill bonus for anything would be forced to take this. That's something we've been working not to have in the system, like how races don't have attribute bonuses. That level 4 IS the weakest in my opinion, but characters who like to do a lot of things will still enjoy it. Like sunbeam says about his Jack of All Trades build. I'm also working to have destinies for those that do like specific skills - we have one for stealth, three for arcana, and I'm working on ones for Athletics and Persuasion, and should probably do acrobatics too (Or make my athletics one double for that)

The extra expert skill also doesn't help you max another skill, though I do get that you can sink it into another skill of your maxed attribute.

Other possibilities include 4 skill trainings, but that feels more bland.

What if, whenever a Magic Point is spent to give a bonus to your expert/mark skill, it gets an additional bonus? That ties in nicely to the level 7 feature, too?
Or some kind of X/day give a bonus to any skill check, maybe something interesting like +1d20, and a 20 DOES make it a crit, while a 1 does make it fail? Or Physical Prowess style roll for any skill check?
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  sunbeam on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:41 pm

Kindulas wrote:
What if, whenever a Magic Point is spent to give a bonus to your expert/mark skill, it gets an additional bonus? That ties in nicely to the level 7 feature, too?
Or some kind of X/day give a bonus to any skill check, maybe something interesting like +1d20, and a 20 DOES make it a crit, while a 1 does make it fail? Or Physical Prowess style roll for any skill check?

I'm guessing these are small additions to the level 7 features? That's the only place they really fit.

Considering the scope and uses per day of current x/day bonuses (I'm thinking mainly of Leggo and that remove disease utility talent, and it seems like 1.5 racial points is about what we'd be shooting for here to fill in the gap.), the bonus would either have to be 1/day or rather small, neither of which make them particularly interesting.

What is a Physical Prowess style roll?

the +1d20 seems really cool, especially if we maybe limit it to only your newly acquired expert skill. (Or maybe to any expert skill you have, I don't know.) It'd be about the equivalent of a magic point bonus without the versatility (an average of +10.5 to a roll, and the 5% crit and 5% fail balance each other out), so it seems like a 1/day ability, but that could really lend to the feeling that this new expert skill is like a superior skill, that's even better than your cutie mark, which is badass, if a little unsettling.
What would happen if you rolled 20 on both dice with that?
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  ZamuelNow on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:01 pm

While it's a very good thing the system recommends reflavoring and a generalized destiny is probably needed, it sorta doesn't feel like this doesn't have much flavor to begin with. Plus, I thought Self Discovery was more supposed to be the well rounded destiny. I dunno, while noted that it's mechanically sound, it just seems like "something's missing" and I'm at a loss to what would be good to add so unfortunately this isn't very good for constructive criticism.

As far as "missing" flavor is concerned, I'd argue that the destinies currently in the official rulebook don't cover all of the Mane 6 without stretching a few. I have seen some in the forum that seem to be built to address this but I think they were noted as unfinished.

Glad to get more info about how the point breakdown should be done for destinies. Had a few ideas but I wasn't sure exactly how to balance them out.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Nehiel Mori on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:07 pm

I now realize that I can't do math, ever.

Level 4 would be worth 3 racial traits, not 3.5.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:46 pm

sunbeam wrote:
Kindulas wrote:
What if, whenever a Magic Point is spent to give a bonus to your expert/mark skill, it gets an additional bonus? That ties in nicely to the level 7 feature, too?
Or some kind of X/day give a bonus to any skill check, maybe something interesting like +1d20, and a 20 DOES make it a crit, while a 1 does make it fail? Or Physical Prowess style roll for any skill check?

I'm guessing these are small additions to the level 7 features? That's the only place they really fit.

Considering the scope and uses per day of current x/day bonuses (I'm thinking mainly of Leggo and that remove disease utility talent, and it seems like 1.5 racial points is about what we'd be shooting for here to fill in the gap.), the bonus would either have to be 1/day or rather small, neither of which make them particularly interesting.

What is a Physical Prowess style roll?

the +1d20 seems really cool, especially if we maybe limit it to only your newly acquired expert skill. (Or maybe to any expert skill you have, I don't know.) It'd be about the equivalent of a magic point bonus without the versatility (an average of +10.5 to a roll, and the 5% crit and 5% fail balance each other out), so it seems like a 1/day ability, but that could really lend to the feeling that this new expert skill is like a superior skill, that's even better than your cutie mark, which is badass, if a little unsettling.
What would happen if you rolled 20 on both dice with that?
1) No, they're ideas to replace the level 7. Again, just because the expert/mark skill is listed at 2 points, it's actually worth far more than that, especially the ability to have a second one. The level 7 is actually amazing.

2) Physical prowess is that talent where... wait, I think you guys call it "Hop, skip and a jump"?
You roll 3d10 on an athletics or acrobatics check.

3) Anything limited to affecting your expert/mark skill should affect both. That makes it even cooler that you have two.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:51 pm

Personally I'm a big fan of rolling multiple d20s that ADD together for a skill check, but that's just me.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:59 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Personally I'm a big fan of rolling multiple d20s that ADD together for a skill check, but that's just me.
It is a very interesting and exiting element that is universally useful, but much more unique, and would probably make the destiny look a lot cooler than the current feature (as much as I'd like a few more attribute points on my character).

Level 4 - Hero
You’ve been on a great deal of quests and adventures, and you’ve become a true expert in your field. [Some extra flavor] You gain the following utility talent
---Great Expertise - 2/Day Interrupt
The next time you would make a skill check for your expert.Cutie Mark skill, Roll 2d20 instead of 1d20 and add the results. If you roll a 20 on either die, it's a critical success. If you roll a 1 on either die, it's a critical failure. If you roll 20 on one die but 1 on the other, it is neither a critical success or a critical failure. If you roll a natural 20 on both dice, you gain a magic point.


Could also be something along the lines of:
---Finnesse - 2/Day Interrupt
Trigger - You or an ally would fail a skill check.
Effect - Roll a d20 and add the result to the check. If you roll a 20, the check becomes a critical success.
^^^The above is probably overpowered since that's the effect of a Magic Point (10.5 boost, plus the ability to make it a crit) but 1/Day is underpowered. Just the idea here though, I like the first one myself, the MAgic Point chance is really flashy, and combos amazingly with the "Adept" racial.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Philadelphus on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:27 am

Good enough explanation about the original level 4 idea to satisfy me (I'd personally probably use it to round out things rather than specialize anyway, just trying to think outside my normal box). The new one, Great Expertise, I rather like. I'm assuming if you roll a 20 on both dice it's both a cutie mark critical and you gain a Magic Point?

Also, I'm assuming the answer to this question is 'yes', but just to be clear, the second cutie mark/expert skill at level 7 means you can trigger a cutie mark critical with it as well, correct?

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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Hayatecooper on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:11 am

Kindulas wrote:

Level 4 - Hero
You’ve been on a great deal of quests and adventures, and you’ve become a true expert in your field. [Some extra flavor] You gain the following utility talent
---Great Expertise - 2/Day Interrupt
The next time you would make a skill check for your expert.Cutie Mark skill, Roll 2d20 instead of 1d20 and add the results. If you roll a 20 on either die, it's a critical success. If you roll a 1 on either die, it's a critical failure. If you roll 20 on one die but 1 on the other, it is neither a critical success or a critical failure. If you roll a natural 20 on both dice, you gain a magic point.

I love the idea of a catch all destiny, something I don't feel we really have. Self Discovery works to an extent, but even then your limited to lvl 4/7'd of other destinies. Also I want Great Expertise to be a thing, cause you know that's really cool!
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:25 pm

Philadelphus wrote:Good enough explanation about the original level 4 idea to satisfy me (I'd personally probably use it to round out things rather than specialize anyway, just trying to think outside my normal box). The new one, Great Expertise, I rather like. I'm assuming if you roll a 20 on both dice it's both a cutie mark critical and you gain a Magic Point?

Also, I'm assuming the answer to this question is 'yes', but just to be clear, the second cutie mark/expert skill at level 7 means you can trigger a cutie mark critical with it as well, correct?
1) Yep, two 20s would also spectacular crit. To clarify this, I could say "If at least one of the dice is a 20"
2) Also yes. That's a big part of why I like them together, because the level 7 hugely buffs this level 4

Seems like Great Expertise is a hit then. That makes the whole package look a lot cooler.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:05 pm

I do see a problem how this denesty in this way. Basically if you play a non-cutie-mark character it does NOTHING until level 7.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:18 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:I do see a problem how this denesty in this way. Basically if you play a non-cutie-mark character it does NOTHING until level 7.
Hm... that's a fair point. What if we switch level 4 and 7? I don't like the way that the level 4 isn't boosted by the 7, but it does fix /that/ problem...
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:20 pm

Yeah... That does fix things a little.
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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:48 pm

Isn't "Great Expertise" quintessential for min/maxing specific skills? You get to add an expected value of 10.5 to the roll.

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Re: The Adventurer Destiny

Post  Kindulas on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:36 pm

I believe the rule we've been using is things that permanently increase the passive bonus. We have Nightwisps and things like that, I'd argue this is okay
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