Is it just me, or is this really OP?

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Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Antiquated on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:10 pm

Someone may have brought this up already, and if that is the case, I'm sorry. I didn't look through everything, or even bother to Ctrl-F for titles that might have covered this. To be blunt, I made this account to ask a few questions and I don't plan to spend a huge amount of time on the cite, but I thought I would toss this out there because I think this strategy I came up with is pretty broken.

Ok, I've been spending a lot of time in the Combat Talents doc while building characters for a few friends who are joining my in-progress game, and I noticed a combat strategy that seems hilariously over powered.

Here is the full copy-paste for the Flametonge.

[-7] Flametongue – Minor Utility
You conjure a Flametongue—a flaming sword—in your hands. You can dismiss the Flametongue as a free action. While you are wielding a Flametongue, you cannot use your other combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Searing Heat - Trait
Whenever you trigger one of your Special Moves, target creature suffers 5 ongoing damage (save ends).

[+3] Fireslash – Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.

[+1] Burning Wound – Standard Attack
Roll a d8. Deal that much damage to target creature, and it suffers that much ongoing damage (save ends).

[-1] Scorched Earth – Standard Utility
Up to six enemies suffer 5 ongoing damage (save ends)

[-2] Blazing Blade - Standard Attack
Deal 2d10 damage to up to six enemies.

[-4] Cremate – Standard Attack
Deal 4d8 damage to target creature and your next attack single target attack can target up to 4 creatures instead. The Flametongue vanishes.
Now, look at Cremate, specifically the part that says:

your next attack single target attack can target up to 4 creatures instead.
Now, I am going to copy-paste in some attacks that I would think one could use in conjunction with this.

[+1] Kindle Pain - Standard Utility
If target enemy is suffering ongoing damage, increase that damage by 5.
This is kind of devastating, especially when you can use Scorched Earth from the Flametonge to give 6 targets 5 ongoing damage. So this means four targets with 10 ongoing damage, and two with 5 ongoing damage...

[-8] Judo Throw - Standard Attack
Fling target creature away from the battle, removing it from combat until the end of its next turn (a creature removed from combat cannot affect any other creature in the battle with combat talents or be affected by any combat talents - though it may still use [+] abilities to gain PiPs). You may choose to deal 3d12 damage to a creature thrown this way.
I don't even need to explain this one. Not only is 3d12 a ton of damage, but removing four targets from the battle until the end of it's next turn? Ouch.

[-9] You Will Die - Standard Utility
Target creature is weakened, blinded, dazed, suffers vulnerability 3, 5 ongoing damage and a -3 penalty to saving throws (save ends all)
Doing that to four targets?! O_o

[-10] Crescendo - Standard Attack
Deal 1d4+1 damage to target creature.
Deal 1d6+2 damage to target creature.
Deal 1d8+3 damage to target creature.
Deal 1d10+4 damage to target creature.
Deal 1d12+5 damage to target creature.
This is getting a little technical, and I can see a DM vetoing it, but if you deal all that damage to one creature, that might make this a single target attack...

And finally, the absolute worst one.

[-7] Domineer - Standard Attack
Target creature is Dominated (save ends).
Dominate four creatures in one move... There are no words. This is terrifying.



Ok, yes, this requires a bit of set up, but it really isn't that bad. Let's say you have built a character specifically with conjured weapons in mind. You picked up:

Talisman of Weapons - 1000 Gold
Trinket
Once per battle, if you possess a Conjure Weapon combat talent, you may reduce the cost of the Conjure Weapon talent by 3 pips. This cannot reduce the cost to below 0.
And at second level you grab the Combat Trait:

Nothing Up My Sleeve
Reduce the pip cost of combat talents you use to conjure conjurations by 1 pip. Their costs cannot be reduced to less than 0.
So, Flametonge now costs -3 pips. You can summon it on your first turn as a minor, and then use Fireslash to get back up to 4 pips. Second turn you use Fireslash again, 7 pips. Third turn you do it again, 10 pips. Forth turn you do it again, 13 pips. Fifth turn you use Cremate, down to 9 Pips. And on your sixth turn you could use most of those heavy hitter attacks, Domineer, Judo Throw, You Will Die, and have it hit four targets. Yes, the battle needs to last for six rounds. Yes, a lot of smaller battles probably won't last that long, but against a boss or some similar longer encounter, this would be overwhelming.

And this doesn't even take into consideration the option that another player could let you spend their pips with Channel Mind.

[0] Channel Mind - Standard Utility
Target ally can use one of their (-) talents as a free action. They spend your pips instead of theirs to pay the talent’s pip cost.
If you did that, you could use cremate on your second turn, and if you have a designated pip-builder in the party, you could probably use Domineer, or something, on your third turn! Now, if put enough thought into building a unified strategy for the entire party, you are going to find a way to break the game regardless, but two players being able to do this much damage in three rounds seems very broken to me.

What do you think? Should there be some kind of limit? Personally, I think you should nerf Cremate somehow. Perhaps limit how expensive of a move can be multiplied by it, or limit it to only attacks that don't bestow a save ends effect.
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Paper Shadow on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:18 pm

Just a heads up, some of the things you suggested are not attacks, but utilities, so they don't work with Cremate. Crescendo also doesn't work, as all of its attacks count as separate attacks for things like vulnerability, so only the first attack will have multiple targets. Also, combat last for around 5 turns, so I wouldn't worry about a 6 turn combo. Of course, as you point out, there are ways around it. After all, there are ways to do Level 2 Turn 2 It's Over with an ally, so yeah, pip building and whatnot. It's strong, but I believe there are stronger builds out there...

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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Azureink on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:21 pm

Kindle Pain and You Will Die are not attacks. You cannot use them with Cremate.
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  tygerburningbright on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:21 pm

First off Welcome to the forums

now Kindle Pain and You Will Die would not get the target up to 4 targets effect due to being Utilities

Also Crescendo is not a single target attack due to being able to chose diffrent targets for each one of its parts

Judo and Domineer (which should be a Utility) would be very much broken under that effect.

Actually solving this might be a tad hard in general strange limits are not put in place in this system so a lowering of the number of targets might be better.

Additionally most of the time combat lasts 3-6 rounds so if a combo takes 6 turns to pull off well it should be over at that point

Edit ninja'd... twice
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Antiquated on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:46 pm

Paper Shadow wrote:Just a heads up, some of the things you suggested are not attacks, but utilities, so they don't work with Cremate. Crescendo also doesn't work, as all of its attacks count as separate attacks for things like vulnerability, so only the first attack will have multiple targets... It's strong, but I believe there are stronger builds out there...

Azureink wrote:Kindle Pain and You Will Die are not attacks. You cannot use them with Cremate.

Ah, thanks, to all of you, for pointing out the utility thing. I didn't notice that. Also thanks, Paper Shadow, for explaining the thing with Crescendo, I wasn't sure what qualified as a single target attack. Also, your suggestion that there are stronger builds scares me.

tygerburningbright wrote:First off Welcome to the forums

Judo and Domineer (which should be a Utility) would be very much broken under that effect.

Actually solving this might be a tad hard in general strange limits are not put in place in this system so a lowering of the number of targets might be better.

Thanks for the warm welcome, to be honest I'm impressed I got three replys so quickly. I mostly wanted to point out how broken Cremate can be, but I get that it would be difficult to balance without making it useless.

Whelp, my duty is done. I have planted evil ideas, and had my questions answered. Thank you all!
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:25 pm

Glad to have you posting. And thanks for bringing up something that looks overpowered. Looks like you already got some great answers, but since your question is excellent - I thought I might as well hop in and explain what we were thinking when we designed this weapon.

Ultimately (as people have mentioned) the battles are expected to be over by round 5. Some go longer, some go shorter, so if something looks overpowered but doesn't really pay off until round 5 or 6 - it's almost impossible for it to be truly broken. After all, the combat should be over by then. Furthermore, every turn you spend doing nothing but setting up your combo gives the monsters an additional turn to whack you. For example - dealing 50 damage in round 5 is a lot less valuable than dealing 10 damage each round. If you do 10 damage each round, you're more likely to actually kill some of the enemy monsters early in the combat. That way you can reduce the overall nastiness your team has to deal with.

For another example, imagine the following:

There are 5 monsters on the battlefield, each with 10 hp. You have two strategies at your disposal.

1) Deal 10 damage each round.
2) Deal 10 damage to all enemies during round 5.

Obviously, option 1 is better. With option 1, you'll kill a monster each round - so you'll only take the full force of their attacks once. Then you'll only take the attacks from 4 of the monsters, then 3 of the monsters, then 2, then 1, then you win.

In option 2, you have to endure all their attacks for 4-5 full rounds before you get to kill them. You might not even be standing at that point.

Naturally, this is a simplified example - but it does a good job explaining why wait-and-build-up-to-awesomeness strategies actually *have* to be more devastating than strategies that can do their stuff earlier and more consistently. And that's not even factoring in the chance of getting knocked unconscious before you blow your combo (and thus losing all those saved-up pips).

TLDR: Since the Flametongue Cremate build has to wait a long time to unleash its awesomeness and is more vulnerable to disruption (being knocked unconscious while you have 7 pips is crushing) - these disadvantages mean it needs to come with some awesome added value.

Also, battles are only supposed to take 5 rounds. Being able to destroy the world in round 6 usually won't matter much if the fight's already over. jocolor

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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:30 pm

I do wanta note that you can summon flametuouge at best with just a ONE pip by comboing Rabbit Hat, The traite talked about, and the Weapon Talisman.
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:32 pm

Very true. Though at that point, you're paying *way* too much to summon it for a few less pips. Rabbit-Filled Hat and the similar trait only pay themselves back if you conjure things repeatedly. If you spend most of the battle using your flametongue, you'll have an underpowered build compared to if you took other items and traits that made you more awesome.

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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Antiquated on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:45 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Glad to have you posting. And thanks for bringing up something that looks overpowered...

Also, battles are only supposed to take 5 rounds. Being able to destroy the world in round 6 usually won't matter much if the fight's already over. jocolor

No problem, just thought I would point it out in case this was something that slipped through the cracks. Also, thanks for personally responding to my query. It looks like you have a really great group of people here ^_^

I'll keep the "only supposed to take 5 rounds" bit in mind. I suspect that with my party, battles may start lasting longer, we are an interesting group, but that would be up to our DM.
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:55 pm

Awesome. And please feel free to point out when anything looks overpowered, broken or even under-powered. It's a great help in improving the system. We either get a chance to learn more about player perception, or figure out that something *did* slip through the cracks that we didn't intend. Besides, we just have fun talking about this game. Smile

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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:36 am

And on a random note, as somebody who uses Flametoung... I've seen the things Cremate Single Target turning four thing kinda lame and underwelming. Most combats I don't even think to plan to use it. Cause most combats don't have the enemies needed to make it worthwhile. And I enjoy the other talents a bit more.
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Re: Is it just me, or is this really OP?

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