Re: What's Missing?: Utility Talents version

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:44 pm

I think the more pressing concern is someone that tricks someone into accepting the reversed gravity, then switches it back after 4 minutes or so.

Zarhon Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:39 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I think the more pressing concern is someone that tricks someone into accepting the reversed gravity, then switches it back after 4 minutes or so.

Hm, at what point would a creature free-falling creature achieve terminal velocity, or gain enough velocity to die in mid-fall? At what time would a upwards-falling creature break orbit (thus reaching the point where reversing the gravity wouldn't return them), or gain enough speed to burn up in our atmosphere?

ZamuelNow Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:40 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:I think the more pressing concern is someone that tricks someone into accepting the reversed gravity, then switches it back after 4 minutes or so.

Wouldn't that kill or at least injure the caster? When building this, I was running off the assumption that everyone in the gravity field would be pulled a singular direction together. As far as being weightless, I figure it was a "common sense" type addition running off the theory that if you can change it, you can also negate it. It was placed in there with the thought process that over-specifying would make it easier for a GM to deal with than trying to come up with a rule on the fly if a player asked.

Philadelphus may have a point in the move getting a little bloated. On the show, Twilight only altered it for her and Spike and it didn't last 10 minutes. Perhaps this should be reduced to just the caster and one ally, the duration shortened, and the number of uses increased again.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:42 pm

I was responding to Philladelphus' version - not yours. Philaldelphus had it target a single creature.

**Philadelphus** Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:20 am

Hmm, you guys raise some good points. It occurs to me that I didn't bother to do any calculations before pulling numbers out of thin air, so let's remedy that, shall we? Very Happy

It's time for...Science! sunny

According to the Wikipedia article on free fall, it takes a human ~12 seconds to achieve terminal velocity of 176 feet per second, traveling about 1,500 feet in the process (I'm going to use those numbers and assume that a pony would have about the same aerodynamical cross section as a human). Five minutes minus 12 seconds = 288 seconds, so over the course of the full five minutes duration you would reach about 288 seconds * 176 feet per second + 1,500 feet = 52,188 feet, or about 9.88 miles (15.9 km) in altitude. This is a fair way out, but nowhere near the Kármán line at 62 miles (100 km) above the Earth's surface, which is customarily considered the "boundary" between the atmosphere and outer space. (In reality you would go a bit higher because the atmosphere would thin as you went up, increasing your terminal velocity, but a full treatment would require differential equations and classical mechanics, and intuitively I don't think it'd be too much different. You certainly wouldn't be able to achieve escape velocity of 7 miles per second during those five minutes.)

That aside, the naïve treatment above would put you – assuming a standing start at sea level – just past the tropopause and into the bottom of the stratosphere (for comparison, the summit of Mount Everest is 29,029 feet above sea level so you'd be about twice as high). You'd hit –60° Farenheit (–51°C) at the bottom of the stratosphere, and eye-balling a graph of air pressure-versus-altitude suggests a value of about one-tenth that at sea level (you'd be above about 80% of the mass of the Earth's atmosphere). All in all, not the friendliest of environments. It also brings up potentially complicated questions of just how similar the world of Equestria is to Earth.

Which suggests to me that 5 minutes is far too long of a duration. If a full treatment of how far you would go would require diffy-Q, that's way too complicated. If we instead consider a duration of 30 seconds you'd fall no further than 4,668 feet, less than a mile up. On the other hand, this may not actually be long enough to accomplish anything useful in a safe indoor location. Hmmm...

Radical idea: what if the talent's effects were limited to the caster, and made an at-will? Something like this:
Reverse Gravity – At Will
Prep time: 5 seconds
While this talent is active, you feel the pull of gravity reversed for yourself and any equipment you are wearing. This power may be toggled on or off at any time, and you are protected from any accelerative stresses that result. Other creatures and objects are not affected by this talent, although they may be affected by you (e.g., if you are near an object that weighs less than you and you grab ahold of it your greater weight will cause it to rise with you, although it will still be attracted downwards if you let go of it).

ZamuelNow Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:20 am

Meant to get back to this

Memories of the Departed:

ZamuelNow Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:37 pm

Transmorgify:

ZamuelNow Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:13 pm

Advanced Teleportation:

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:25 pm

Thought I'd throw in my two cents while I was making my character... Not sure of it's effectiveness though.
Prep Time - 5/Day
Preparation Time: X minutes
If you know of a battle to be joined, one that is going to start, or one that you can begin quickly, you may enter a state of Prep Time. During this state, you are unable to take any action for the duration of the state, though you can cancel the state at any time. Cancelling the state negates the effect. At any point after 1 minute, you may end Prep Time, and immediately enter combat. (This must be done before Initiative Roll.) Following 1 Minute, you gain a +5 modifier to your Initiative roll. In addition, you begin combat with a bonus +X Energy (Maximum 5.) An enemy that attacks you during Prep Time counts as a Surprise Round, and cancels the effect.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:41 pm

This is a cool and flavorful combat concept. However, the system has a really sharp divide between Combat and Nonbat (non-combat). The idea is that we want flavorful and interesting roleplaying abilities to be separated from improving combat - so that people like me (optimizers) don't have to choose between a more powerful character and a more interesting one. Furthermore, it keeps players more balanced so that everyone is of more comparable strength in combat and out of it - meaning no player is useless in either of the situations (you don't get a Barbarian's player being bored and useless in the roleplaying sections while a diplomancer tiredly waits for combat to be over - thus meaning that one of those players is always going to be bored and trying to get the game to shift toward the gameplay where they shine).

In short, non-combat stuff like Utility Talents, Destinies and Racial Features can *never* touch combat at all. Feel free to make a cool Trait or Item with this idea in mind though. That's the combat stuff. =)

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:57 pm

Hmm. Kinda sucks because my idea of Prep Time was just that; using time outside of combat to prepare to jump into it, if and only if you had knowledge of when battle was going to start. Planning an ambush, preparing a big sneak attack, or lying in wait behind a barricade waiting for the enemy to breach, with you at full strength. Stuff like that. Not sure how well it would work as a Trait, but I'll keep it in mind.

With that said... Round two!

I Know Your True Name - 3/Day
Preparation Time: Instantaneous
Target is one creature of any natural race. Roll a History Check against a DC of the DM's choice. If you succeed, you and your party gain a +5 bonus to Persuasion and Intimidate checks against that creature and any creatures of the same race. In addition, if you have not met the creature before, you may choose how you want the creature to view you upon entering conversation (Friendly, Neutral or Enemy.)

Basic idea with this one is that knowledge of the creature's race grants you the chance to use their culture to your advantage, appearing as a friend to them... Or an enemy... Or a passive nobody. This doesn't work against unnatural creatures, like robots or mindless creatures, because they have no culture to take advantage of. So I imagine this being used by the Archeologist kinda character to be able to enter potentially hostile tribes with knowledge of their ways, and knowing just how to appear friendly. ...At least until they open their mouths.

**Paper Shadow** Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:00 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:This is a cool and flavorful combat concept. However, the system has a really sharp divide between Combat and Nonbat (non-combat). The idea is that we want flavorful and interesting roleplaying abilities to be separated from improving combat - so that people like me (optimizers) don't have to choose between a more powerful character and a more interesting one. Furthermore, it keeps players more balanced so that everyone is of more comparable strength in combat and out of it - meaning no player is useless in either of the situations (you don't get a Barbarian's player being bored and useless in the roleplaying sections while a diplomancer tiredly waits for combat to be over - thus meaning that one of those players is always going to be bored and trying to get the game to shift toward the gameplay where they shine).

In short, non-combat stuff like Utility Talents, Destinies and Racial Features can *never* touch combat at all. Feel free to make a cool Trait or Item with this idea in mind though. That's the combat stuff. =)

But what about stuff like I'll Rainbow Dash To Your Side and that one Virtue in the LL system which teleports you to an ally in combat? Or is the main problem with Prep Time the in-combat bonuses it gives?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:09 pm

Paper Shadow wrote:But what about stuff like I'll Rainbow Dash To Your Side and that one Virtue in the LL system which teleports you to an ally in combat? Or is the main problem with Prep Time the in-combat bonuses it gives?

Yes. Mobility is fine, it's the in-combat bonuses that are the issue.

@Mind Gamer - Your flavor continues to be awesome, and the title "I Know Your True Name" for a utility talent is so awesome - it almost sounds like it should be the Level 10 feature to a destiny. That's a whole lot of awesome all at once. The hangup here is that its actual mechanics have two issues.

1) It's another skill-check bonus and we try to keep the system light on those. The more skill check bonuses we have, the wider the possible range of modifiers and that makes it harder for DMs to set DCs for tasks. Additionally, skill bonuses tend to be kinda boring compared to things like Phase Step and Arcane Eye while simultaneously being really powerful... Which can lead optimizers to taking skills they find less inherently interesting in exchange for greater perceived power.

2) Being able to convert the most important NPCs into viewing you however you wish, regardless of the situation, can really mess with the mood and story the DM is trying to evoke. Just imagine being DMing a game where your players have killed a man's beloved daughter in order to permanently destroy a lich that had made her heart into his phylactery. The man, an aged hero, is beside himself with grief and anger. He hires a group of mercenaries to bring the players in and, through cunning and treachery, they prevail. The players are brought before him in chains and you prepare to give a passionate, heart-breaking speech to the players before he hands them over to their nemesis... And then poof! He suddenly views them as friendly.

Story broken.

Not precisely sure how to fix it right now, but changing NPC perceptions toward you automatically and easily is probably not a great idea. It can really get in the way of the story the DM is trying to build.

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:22 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:The players are brought before him in chains and you prepare to give a passionate, heart-breaking speech to the players before he hands them over to their nemesis... And then poof! He suddenly views them as friendly.

Story broken.

Not precisely sure how to fix it right now, but changing NPC perceptions toward you automatically and easily is probably not a great idea. It can really get in the way of the story the DM is trying to build.

I thought that would be worked around by something simple on the DM's part. For instance, in the situation you brought up, the flavor would use it as "the man still has very good reasons to hate them, but is willing to see them as decent people." That's not railroading, that's roleplaying the man properly; letting his pre-existing feelings over-power the positive meeting, even if he doesn't see them as horrible people personally. "You're a good man... But my daughter comes first. I'm sorry... But you still must die." This gives the players a chance to use Diplomacy to escape the situation, appealing to his good nature while trying to escape his wrath.

I tried to mean that the "set their stance to you" was only implied so far as in meeting them. Like a good first impression. This, however, means different things to different races, which is why I wanted to let the DM set a DC. How exactly are you going to get on the good side of a race of bloodthirsty dragons? They might expect you to be turning yourself over as slaves. Or bearing tribute.

Most of all, I tried to make it like a stepping stone. You start with a good first impression, but if you can't keep up that in-roleplay, that first impression is wasted and they can hate you anyway. I dunno.

Lastly, I set it as a History DC because I noticed a desire for things like History to get some use. Wasn't quite sure how else I was allowed to use it, so I apologize.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:37 pm

Oh, there's absolutely no need for apology in any sense for any design idea ever. We designers try to shred our own ideas to ribbons, to test if they hold up, and the weirder and wackiest ideas often produce really interesting results.

Quick clarification: I like the 'roll a history check' part - it's the +5 bonus to persuasion that's the issue.

As for the substance of changing the guy's attitude, I understand that the man might view them in a more favorable light after the meeting - but it does a lot to undermine his irrational hatred born by his fatherly grief and incapability to see past the loss of his beloved daughter. You might be able to save the concept with a, "for example" - and go into how the talent won't alter overall preexisting impressions much. However, while a very good DM can save a story almost no matter what a player throws at them, this talent's presence would unquestionably make their job a lot harder and serve to undercut the meaning of player actions. If a player can press a button and make an NPC favorable without potential reprecussion - it can take a lot of the wind out of roleplaying. It also can make a DM's job a lot harder to do, especially for those inexperienced in the craft. A system exists to give DMs a framework that makes their job of adjudicating player abilities and the balance of what everyone can do easier in their desire to go on a collaborative adventure. Otherwise, they wouldn't need a system at all. With that in mind, we focus on making the system as easy as possible for everyone involved.

For example - in the first test of the system there was a talent that I and players loved called Insight. It would reveal a secret about any NPC. However, that forced DMs to improvise interesting secrets about any NPC the players might point at - so that the player wouldn't feel the talent was wasted - yet not so interesting that it derailed the story or so useful that it dwarfed other talents. That made the DM's job significantly harder and so the talent got cut.

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:47 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Quick clarification: I like the 'roll a history check' part - it's the +5 bonus to persuasion that's the issue.

As for the substance of changing the guy's attitude, I understand that the man might view them in a more favorable light after the meeting - but it does a lot to undermine his irrational hatred born by his fatherly grief and incapability to see past the loss of his beloved daughter. You might be able to save the concept with a, "for example" - and go into how the talent won't alter overall preexisting impressions much. However, while a very good DM can save a story almost no matter what a player throws at them, this talent's presence would unquestionably make their job a lot harder and serve to undercut the meaning of player actions. If a player can press a button and make an NPC favorable without potential reprecussion - it can take a lot of the wind out of roleplaying.

Fair enough on the bonus thing... I just wanted to be able to have the talent be useful outside of first meetings. Knowing the culture in order to better suited for discussion with them. If there's another way to have a similar bonus, I'm all ears. As it stands... I'm trying to think of another idea, but I don't know.

As for the example and undercutting of existing stories... Well, that was part of the point. Far, far too many times I've seen players and myself blundering into situations with cultures they have no idea about, or running into Always Evil races that have no desire to talk. Random encounters are made to be random fights, I know, but to my knowledge... That wasn't meant to be the case with the Harmony system. The Harmony system was made to allow all forms of "combat" be justified, as long as they deal with the situation. That usually should include diplomacy. I mean, if you're tired of trying to talk out of a situation, usually you can just pick up a sword, start swinging, and deal with the problem when all hostile parties are on the floor, dead or dying. To my knowledge, it's much harder or impossible to do the opposite; stop a fight before it happens, and begin conversation instead.

So, alright... It's far from a perfect, or even acceptable Utility talent as it stands, I get that. I just think that, if the idea of a good first impression born of knowledge of your "enemy" cannot exist in this form, it'd be nice to have in another.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:10 pm

That makes absolute sense. Why not make it about the culture then instead of various individuals? How about a general "creatures of this culture tend to react far more favorably to you than they would other outsiders" version of an effect (obviously that phrasing would not be sufficient). That way the DM can still maintain the consistency of important characters, but you can get a general understanding of and advantage in dealing with particular cultures based on your history checks when you interact with them.

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:26 pm

Hmm... Alright, here's a new version.

Howdy, Neighbour!
When you take this talent, choose different races equal to one third your History modifier. Upon meeting these races, you begin conversation with a favorable position diplomatically relative to other outsiders, at the DM's discretion. If a race you have selected has multiple cultures, you must choose one of them to gain this talent's benefit from. You may choose multiple cultures of the same race.

This might take a bit of reworking in order to work within worlds that have multiple cultures. However, it does keep a player from choosing a culture they have no way of knowing about ahead of time. Further, I chose one third the History modifier in order to allow the Talent to have a use even for players with the minimum History score (5, so only 1 culture can be chosen,) but not so much that players with high History modifiers will be able to choose everyone at once.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:40 pm

I like where this is going. It's a creative use of the history modifier and feels meaningfully different from the other talents out there - plus a lot closer to the need you were talking about filling. I agree that getting to choose X number of cultures ahead of time (especially when that choice will usually result in an awkward rounding of the skill check modifier after division) might come with the drawbacks you mention. Furthermore, I doubt that most DMs are going to have a clear grasp on what every specific culture in their world is ahead of time. 'Culture' is notably hard to define. I can see a player taking this and asking the DM to list off every single culture in his world - so that the player can select which ones he wants the bonus to apply too. Naturally, this is going to flummox a few DMs.

This is going really well and the talent is making great progress towards something we can include in the system. It's also an interesting and meaningfully different idea. If you can address the gameplay issues we've both talked about, I'm pretty sure this concept will eventually end up in the game.

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:54 pm

Mmhm. Plus. I can't believe I was actual able to use Howdy, Neighbour in this without getting called on my use of the u. Also, it's a horse pun. WOO.

Ahem. Now, to address the gameplay issues to the extent of my knowledge... How to allow players to choose cultures without forcing the DM to list off every one. Hmm.

Alright, how's this sound as an idea? Upon taking this talent, you gain the ability to learn about the cultures of the world. The limit cap related to your History score is still in effect, but now you don't choose which cultures you know of in advance. Now, you must actively spend time in the culture itself, in order to gain the bonus. After all, it's one thing to read books on Orcs or study the history of Mermares. It's another to actively live in their society for a time.

So it could work like this.

Howdy, Neighbour!
Upon taking this talent, you gain the ability to study a number of cultures up to one third your History modifier. Following this, whenever you spend one full day within a society, you may choose to learn it's culture. At this point, the DM will grant you knowledge of the culture in question, and you will have a positive position inside the culture diplomatically, relative to other outsiders.

This removes the gameplay issue of forcing the DM to list off all the cultures of the world, while introducing a new element of flavor to the actual roleplay. Now, the DM can choose to show the player in question a little slice of life within the culture that has already been introduced, and let the player interact with it. Still on track?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:04 pm

Very nice. Solving the issue by giving the player a set number of cultures they can learn about and letting them choose the cultures while they're in the game works very nicely. The 1/3 history modifier is still a little odd though. Make sure to at least include a 'rounded down' there. Also, you're going to want to specify examples of the types of benefits the players receive from learning about the culture (a "for example" is great here - you want to make the talent as specific as possible under the circumstances so there is less arguing at the game table).

The only remaining issue to consider in terms of concept design is whether the "spend a day" requirement will kind of mess with the way the players would like to use the talent - to be get a more friendly reception at an unknown culture. I originally thought you might go for a kind of "When you roll a history check to see how much you know about a culture, the result gives you benefits based on..." But that's unnecessarily clunky. I like you more "Sweet and Elite" style of execution. However, having to spend a day in the culture doesn't make it easier to get into a place that's normally hostile to outsiders. In that case, it should either be changed so that you *can* do that (maybe an option, perhaps spending a magic point, to forgo the spend-a-day requirement or else eliminate the requirement entirely) or the benefits it provides should be substantial and specific enough to clearly be worth the limits.

Ramsus Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:14 pm

There's a slight issue with that suggestion. It's worded so that it matters when you take it. If you take it and then later gain training in History you're getting screwed out of 1 culture of study. So, you should just fix the wording so that it cares about your current History modifier, not what you had when you took it.

Mind Gamer Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:45 pm

That's a valid point, in that forcing the player to spend a day in the culture removes the option of entering a potentially hostile culture like that... Hmm. But then, if they're able to know of the culture before entering, then it brings us back to the problem of having to force the DM into displaying a list of the cultures in the world. Hrn... Must be a solution. Oh, and the One Third your History is meant to be very specific, when rounded down. (I wrote that assuming the "Always round down" rule from the Handbook was in effect.) This meant that if your History was at the very minimum, 5, you would only be able to study 1 culture. 5 rounds down to 3, so 1. Even one extra History attribute would allow you to have have 2 cultures. 3 more, and you get another, and so on. Thus, if you had the absolute maximum History, (10 + 3 + 5 = 18) you could have a maximum of 6 different cultures. Which, considering you're trying to learn and remember all the intricacies of all these cultures beyond what offends them and polite demeanor, is a lot. I chose one third because that way, the Talent would have a use to players without History, but be more useful without being broken to players with History. Still, point made, it should be worded to reflect your current History... Without including temporary modifiers.

Alright, had time to think on it. How about if you have any significant source of knowledge about the culture, spending time researching it also counts toward the talent? Such as spending time with a friendly member of the culture, or studying secretly from the shadows. I want to draw the line at reading about it, because unless you specifically know what culture you're going to want to read about, you'll end up asking the DM again for that list of cultures in the world.

So it might need to be a bit more concrete than that.

As for set-in-stone benefits... Hmm. I imagine a general lay of the culture's land, and potentially something like a friendly NPC you meet in the culture could help make it worthwhile, without defaulting back to bonuses on skill checks. It could also perhaps allow you to use Sweet and Elite within cultures that wouldn't normally recognize your status.

sunbeam Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:18 pm

How would this interact with taking the talent at character creation, if you wanted to start out with the benefits of it. Say, you were raised by Timberwolves, and you want to keep their scent, so they don't think you're an enemy? Could this talent let you do that? If so, I think there should be a note on the sidebar or a sentence at the end about starting the game with these benefits.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:20 pm

Well, the 1 day requirement doesn't really stop the "ask the DM about cultures" problem if the culture can be one from your *backstory*.

How about it only triggers upon encountering *new* cultures that your character hasn't met before?

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