Magic Discussion

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:34 am

Continuation of the magic discussion in the new content thread.

I think the people that say, "magic-users are best" kind of miss the point by a wide, wide margin. If you're narrowing a standard non-magic user to also include non-technology (no crazy contraption) non-leaps of knowledge (no detecting of lies or uses of twitch tail or fracture the fourth wall) and non reflavoring of any ability that has its basic flavor as magic... In short, cutting out *anything* that is more interesting than just stuff you can do with just your hooves and no tools or tech...

...

Well, of course you're going to run out of cool stuff to do. You're just limited to skill checks at that point. You've ruled out all the unusual stuff from the system. However, even with that - you can still be a powerhouse. Athletics is *such* a catch-all skill and doesn't have a two-utility-talent tax to make use of it. The Stare can break whole campaigns if the DM isn't careful - and taking derp with it to Stare multiple times a day can bulldoze through a dangerous social situation and get you out of all kinds of trouble. There's more too, but I don't have time to go over it right now (vacuuming).

TLDR; When your criteria for power is based on doing unusual stuff that you can't do with standard skill checks - then put anything that creates unusual effects that people can't normally replicate with a standard skill check into the 'magic' categoy - then of course it's going to look like 'magical' character have tons of advantages. But that's not the reality in a system that offers unlimited reflavoring. Things that have a core flavor of magic don't have to actually be magical. We all know this. Technology, potions, natural instinct and just pinkie pie in general can all do stuff that seems supernormal in nature.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:36 am

With all the argument I've stated in previous argument, I think I've made clear enough by far.

Now, if you excuse me. I've stayed up well to late because of this argument as its now 20 to 5. AM.

Hayatecooper Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:37 am

1. Twilight proved her way into Celestia's student territory by pulling off a massive blast of magic and changing a dragon
2. Yet, it was still forced into a form. What's that form take? Oh yeah.. magic, meaning that magic is the most easily manipulated/created thing(Thus making it better then stuff that isn't magic.. like EVERYTHING)
3. Yeah... no. Again, if that was the case any Pegasus who trained hard enough could pull it off but yet it's only Rainbow Dash,(Plus we know there are Pegasus who are just as fast and more athletic the she is). So yeah, I would say that's innate magic allowing her to do this.

To Stairc
Not limiting it to that
I'm just saying people who can bend space time are infinitely better then people who can detect lies.

sunbeam Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:41 am

Why is this in the game mechanics section and not the general discussion section? It doesn't seem to be particularly relevant to the system. Could we maybe move the thread there (if that's something possible, with an admin account)?

Hayatecooper Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:42 am

Well it is and it isn't
I mean the whole thing could potentially come down to
"Is Scorers Supreme potentially Broken/too easy to abuse" which it hasn't yet but give it time

ZamuelNow Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:42 am

System mechanics comment I'm Ctrl V-ing

I got to thinking and...should Magecraft actually be At Will? The smaller stuff should have alternate options within the system while the big stuff could get adjusted. If we're comparing the concept of the utility to the show, Twilight Sparkle actually can't perform the big stuff at will. It's more akin to a Magic Point using talent since we've seen her strain and tire a bit with her true skill being versatility AKA The Element of Magic. A MP or Daily limit would make Magecraft less system imbalancing as a whole and free it up for adjusting the DCs. It would also encourage smarter play than just brute forcing everything with your Arcana score.

I'll comment about some setting stuff at another time.

Xel Unknown Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:43 am

Well... I personally hate the magic system as it is... Becuase it basically BEGS you to min-max your heart out or cry at being a wimpy and powerless.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:47 am

Hayatecooper wrote:1. Twilight proved her way into Celestia's student territory by pulling off a massive blast of magic and changing a dragon
2. Yet, it was still forced into a form. What's that form take? Oh yeah.. magic, meaning that magic is the most easily manipulated/created thing(Thus making it better then stuff that isn't magic.. like EVERYTHING)
3. Yeah... no. Again, if that was the case any Pegasus who trained hard enough could pull it off but yet it's only Rainbow Dash,(Plus we know there are Pegasus who are just as fast and more athletic the she is). So yeah, I would say that's innate magic allowing her to do this.

To Stairc
Not limiting it to that
I'm just saying people who can bend space time are infinitely better then people who can detect lies.

1. Was that done by friendship? Nope! Meaning Friendship is not Magic.
2. No, that's because magic was the best way to bridge the gap between emotions and effecting reality. It does not mean it is the most easily manipulated/created thing, meaning that is is not better than stuff that isn't magic. Its like how I'm using the internet to talk to you over distances and speeds that something else cannot do. Does this mean the internet is the most powerful thing ever? Hell no!
3. Uh... no. Again, if that was care. Usian Bolt wouldn't be the fastest man alive. All the other athletes have more than likely trained just as much as he is. But they aren't as fast as him. Its not due to magic that he is the fastest. So its not due to magic that Rainbow Dash is the fastest. Thus it is not some 'innate magic' bullshit that has no evidence that allows for the Sonic Rainboom.
4. Define 'better'.

Xel Unknown wrote:Well... I personally hate the magic system as it is... Becuase it basically BEGS you to min-max your heart out or cry at being a wimpy and powerless.

I am afraid I don't follow your reasoning here.

Hayatecooper Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:48 am

Agreed with ZN, it probably needs a limiter.

Most up, it can get boring for those playing as well as the DM, cause it ends up being. *planning a scenario with "How is the Magecraft guy going to break it open this time" or the players "Man, I wish I got to do something but Magecraft is just infinitely better apart from a half dozen specific skills.

it's annoying, people who are throwing around 20-30 with magecraft is just OP.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:49 am

One more thing.

The most powerful Super-Hero is Superman.

He is not magic.

Therefore. Magic is not the most powerful thing.

The end.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:50 am

Hayatecooper wrote:To Stairc
Not limiting it to that
I'm just saying people who can bend space time are infinitely better then people who can detect lies.

You kind of are limiting to that. Because you're putting anything that's supernormal under the 'magic' heading. That'd be odd enough, even if the system wasn't 100% reflavorable to work with anything and if we didn't have tons of examples of non-unicorns/alicorns doing stuff that would fall into these sorts of supernormal acts.

Also, of all the level 10 destiny features (save for the obvious campaign-wrecker Master of Madness that even I don't permit in my games), nothing can stop a dangerous situation more than Lie to Me. Often the danger to the PCs isn't that they won't be able to overcome the obstacles, the most dangerous situations are those when the PCs are tricked or deceived into going after the wrong obstacles in the wrong manner. In my campaigns, the ability to detect a lie is far more powerful than the ability to do just about anything else the system allows. Heck, one of my most useful characters involved ways to effectively trigger Twitchy Tail 7 times per session. And Crazy Contraption is an *amazing* swiss army knife.

ZamuelNow Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:57 am

Fury of the Tempest wrote:The most powerful Super-Hero is Superman.

What does Superman have to do with the price of tea in Canterlot? He's not in MLP so Clark Kent has no bearing on the discussion. Also, there's more powerful heroes if you're not going by Silver Age Superman and even so Supes canonically has a magical weakness of sorts. Tangent end.

Hayatecooper Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:58 am

Fury of the Tempest wrote:One more thing.

The most powerful Super-Hero is Superman.

He is not magic.

Therefore. Magic is not the most powerful thing.

The end.

Fury... one of Supermans greatest weaknesses is Magic... it's why Captain Marvel often wins when they fight. Now if you said Batman, I might agree with you.

Staric
That's true
I am in no way saying that stuff like, CCC or Frabircate or TT isn't powerful(I know they are they do a lot in the right situations and even in some of the wrong ones). But Pure magical ability? It's a better swiss army knife, with imagination and high Arcane skill, mage craft will let you do a lot of these things and more.

For example, one of my players is focusing on Magical conjurations(Pretty neat idea) but when he's chucking around DC35-40 to summon something to break a wall down, and then probably keep around for 1 minute or so? Why would you both with the Brawn specialist. Need a part replaced? Call the mecha.. oh no wait the arcane guy got that too, with Magical tricks of all things if the part is simple enough.

Want to detect if someone is lying to you? Cool, rolling to read his mind(or take the talent) or maybe force a character to answer you to make someone elses zone of truth more effective(it's a neat combo I must admit). But when Magic essentially allows you to be the biggest bully on the playground and boost all your allies as well? That's a little nuts.

And I know you can re-flavor a lot of this stuff, but stuff like Forcefield(Which calls for you to be doing an Arcana check) is a little harder. Arcana is a really, really viable and really good skill in this game, I'm not saying other stuff isn't good or powerful but Arcana tops it.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:02 am

Hayatecooper wrote:
Staric
That's true
I am in no way saying that stuff like, CCC or Frabircate or TT isn't powerful(I know they are they do a lot in the right situations and even in some of the wrong ones). But Pure magical ability? It's a better swiss army knife, with imagination and high Arcane skill, mage craft will let you do a lot of these things and more.

This seems to be the problem. If this is the case, Magecraft is being used wrong. I never let Magecraft replicate existing talents without extraordinarily high DCs and usually a good deal of risk. Magecraft *is* the "do whatever you want" talent... But it isn't supposed to make other options irrelevant. It's just supposed to be the catch-all for magicians that want to be jacks of all trades yet masters of none - or interact with *existing* magic the way that a mechanic interacts with existing machinery.

Hayatecooper Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:18 am

But it's easy enough for you to replicate the talents without directly replicated the talents
I mean take Create Crazy Contraption: Easy enough to do similar things with magecraft (Creating Golems for instance?) (DC X Where X depends on the roll and how good and powerful the Golem turns out to be)
Fabricate, why turn the clump of trees into a bridge when you can just make a magical platform(DC 40ish)
Twitchy Tail... oh you got me on this one, I don't think you can actually replicate that with Magecraft

But yeah, it's really possible when it just turns into a summon/create whatever you want, to make stuff redundant essentially when you're throwing around bonus's of +30(Or if you get that 1/day boon +50).

Cardbo Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:48 am

Hayatecooper wrote:Agreed with ZN, it probably needs a limiter.

Most up, it can get boring for those playing as well as the DM, cause it ends up being. *planning a scenario with "How is the Magecraft guy going to break it open this time" or the players "Man, I wish I got to do something but Magecraft is just infinitely better apart from a half dozen specific skills.

it's annoying, people who are throwing around 20-30 with magecraft is just OP.

Not necessarily. In the first game I ever played in, I had an Earth pony who did a whole heck of a lot with a Minmaxed History attribute and high Perception and Persuasion. He could almost read you mind based on your body language. It pretty much broke open the campaign as he was teasing details out of the air, and he had no arcane magic.

Hayatecooper Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:39 am

...so your claim to Magecraft is not op is
It's Ok cause I can be broken in other area's and achieve the same effect? Sorry that doesn't make sense to me. And again, can still break the game(I 100% believe you trust me) but you aren't breaking the game and space time.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:46 am

His claim is that he did more powerful, or at the very least of comparable power, things with non-magecraft than people did with magecraft. That's how you argue whether magecraft is the most powerful... By comparing the options.

From your posts Hayate, you must be using Magecraft wrong. It should not be creating as powerful effects as the ones you are talking about. If the DM *is* making it that powerful in your game, it's the DM's mistake.

Ramsus Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:53 am

It really seems like you guys are complaining about a "problem" (that's only a problem if your GM allows it to be one) that has no feasible solution. Narrowing the abilities of Magecraft is just going to result in telling people they can't do certain things that would have been fine in games that weren't exactly the same as you're experiencing and still result in the same "brokenness" with what remains in others. You can't remove the ability either because that just doesn't make sense that people can't do a ton of different things because some people abused it and their GMs couldn't figure out how to handle this (which pretty much guaranteed means they didn't ask other people for advice). You can't raise the skill requirements on Magecraft because that just exacerbates the "specialist only" issue that already exists (and means you have absolutely ludicrous DCs for doing non-broken things).

The problem here isn't that Magecraft itself can't be fair. It's that players are abusing the leeway it gives them and that GMs aren't responding properly. An additional problem here seems to be that some of you don't think creatively about other abilities and others find such creative thinking to be "game breaking". With a proper GM you shouldn't ever be able to "break the game" as no matter what the result, the GM is always within their rights to say something doesn't work (or more leniently, doesn't accomplish the crazy thing the player was trying to do but, still accomplishes something).

**Paper Shadow** Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:30 am

Actually, I just had a thought. You know how DCs essentially scale down as players level, to make it seem that they are getting stronger? A Level 1 Character may struggle with opening a wooden door, but a Level 10 Character could easily kick down a steel door? In was in that discussion about whether or not to give players +X bonuses on level up. Anyway, how does that work with Magecraft?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:34 am

It doesn't in terms of functionality. Magecraft is static, otherwise it would scale in ways that other talents don't.

I often wonder whether Magecraft is good for the system. On the one hand, it's the catch-all to every magical specialist's dream and it lets the arcana skill do things I as a DM want it to be able to do - while still being balanced. On the other hand, it's one of the only places in the system that's rather vague and depends on a DM for correct adjudication to keep things fair. That I like much less, as results clearly vary across many DMs and the talent often ends up reported as either incredibly overpowered or, in a surprising number of cases, useless.

**Paper Shadow** Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:46 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:It doesn't in terms of functionality. Magecraft is static, otherwise it would scale in ways that other talents don't.

I often wonder whether Magecraft is good for the system. On the one hand, it's the catch-all to every magical specialist's dream and it lets the arcana skill do things I as a DM want it to be able to do - while still being balanced. On the other hand, it's one of the only places in the system that's rather vague and depends on a DM for correct adjudication to keep things fair. That I like much less, as results clearly vary across many DMs and the talent often ends up reported as either incredibly overpowered or, in a surprising number of cases, useless.

Well, on one hand, I would much rather see Magecraft's many, many uses be made into many, many utility talents instead. Maybe even consider experimenting on talents with a Level Prerequisite on them, so you can only get them once you are Level 2/5/8 for the larger Magecraft stuff (that way an Alchemist Pony can still do some transmuting without it being incredibly stupid to give a Level 1 character the ability to turn Lead into Gold (even though the Magecraft version only lasts for 10 minutes)). On the other hand, Magecraft is more or less the only viable thing about the Knowledge line. Getting rid of it makes the attribute very weak in my opinion (as in, in comparison to the other attributes, not weak in itself). It is a very tricky line to walk...

Also Magecraft CMCs are scary...

Ramsus Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:01 am

I'm all for more magic spell utilities but, I think doing away with/severely limiting Magecraft would be a mistake. It's one of the nicer parts of this system that there is actually a functional "I am a wizard and can make up spells the designers/other content creators didn't think up because they weren't in this exact situation" sort of thing. Basically, it encourages you to be creative as opposed to trying to solve every problem with teleportation or phase step or force fields or whatever it is you happen to have on your magic focused character (since you likely aren't the big tough guy of the group and can't solve your problems that way).

You're not going to get a perfect solution here and I think something that so clearly requires GMs paying attention to how it gets used is better than something that does a half-job of it and ends up fooling GMs into thinking they don't need to pay careful attention for abusive uses.

I'm also very very strongly against level prerequisites on utility talents. It breaks the entire balance point as currently all utility talents should be worth more or less the same. Also it would make certain concepts very very difficult, if not impossible, as at first level you have most of the utility talents you will ever get and only get three more as you level.

Fury of the Tempest Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:41 am

Yes Superman's man bio-electric aura does not defend against magic, but he still has his super-dense molucerure structure which is an effective defense. And he still has his other abilites

So even with Magic, Superman is the most powerful superhero by far. Watch the end of death battle's Goku vs Superman to see just how insanely overpowerrd he is. Just for recored, he can surrive TEN SUPERNOVAS TO THEFACE.

So in summary, you don't have to be magical to be insane.

Admittedly this isn't related to RPing, but I wanted to make my ppint.

A1C Bronymous Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:26 pm

Magecraft sucks because it encourages minmaxing, encourages mages to do everything, and allows them to take parts of the game away from other players. Persuasion is easy as hell to break open too, I see it all the time. But barring maybe a CMCrit, you can't persuade a locked door to open, you can't persuade a rock not to crush you, you can't persuade a deathtrap to not be so deathy. The same goes with the other breakable skills, they can all go insane and break the game, but only in situations where their ridiculously shrewdly stacked bonuses actually apply. Magecraft, and magic, can in fact do all of those things, and because a dedicated mage is as good at magic as a dedicated thief is at lockpicking and stealth, that means that in the event of the locked door, the thief could do it, or the mage could do it. Rock falling? The brawn guy could handle it, or the mage could do it. Death Trap? Acrobatic pegasus (I guess) could try and get out, or the mage could do it, and probably also get everyone else out.

That isn't balance, that's one character outshining the rest by virtue of being an expert in the one skill that can act as any other skill at any time.

EDIT: You say that if stuff like this goes on then Magecraft is being used incorrectly, or the DM isn't being restrictive enough, but if in a 3+ page document you can't explain it to us in a way that we can understand how to make it work and not be broken at the same time, then it may not be as intuitive as you think.

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