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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Dusk Raven on Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:48 pm

Since I'm just that desperate to provide, I'm going to suggest this combat talent, which I don't think is in place:

[-2] Leech Life - Interrupt Utility
Trigger – You deal damage to an enemy using a single-target attack.
Effect - You gain life equal to the damage dealt.

Open to tweaking. I pondered an alternate version, for instance, where the life gained was equal to the amount of PiPs spent on the attack times 2...
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:44 pm

Ramsus wrote:Ok, I do have something to suggest. That I suggested ages ago and got no response to. A change to Meditate.

[-3] Meditate - Minor Utility
Your next two attacks that have two or fewer targets deal +1d12 damage.
Changes aren't a part of an expansions thread.
I think Meditate as a minor, while it makes sense at first, really the point of meditate is skipping your turn now for damage later.
Also, Meditate somehow went back to an unfixed version...
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:57 pm

Dusk Raven wrote:Since I'm just that desperate to provide, I'm going to suggest this combat talent, which I don't think is in place:

[-2] Leech Life - Interrupt Utility
Trigger – You deal damage to an enemy using a single-target attack.
Effect - You gain life equal to the damage dealt.

Open to tweaking. I pondered an alternate version, for instance, where the life gained was equal to the amount of PiPs spent on the attack times 2...
See, the only problem with this kind of thing, as much as you'd think it'd be simple and a great addition, is that it's value is hard to tell. Theoretically, you could balance it for the hardest hitting moves in the game, but then the power has to cost too much... I find it really annoying, because I really do want to add something like this, but things that give any kind of benefit based on damage dealt are really hard to work with. Even if we add a pip cap, it can go crazy with the Hawkeye items for Sneak Attack. If we add a maximum to the health gained... it could work, but wouldn't look as fun and you'd feel like you aren't getting good enough value if you don't hit that ceiling.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:59 pm

Training blade I like, but it is underpowered. Piercing resistance is a marginal benefit, which makes sense that you're looking to make a cheap weapon - but at that situational a benefit, it might be able to afford something like [0] to use at 2-3 uses, or -1 with limitless uses.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Zarhon on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:09 pm

Kindulas wrote:
Dusk Raven wrote:Since I'm just that desperate to provide, I'm going to suggest this combat talent, which I don't think is in place:

[-2] Leech Life - Interrupt Utility
Trigger – You deal damage to an enemy using a single-target attack.
Effect - You gain life equal to the damage dealt.

Open to tweaking. I pondered an alternate version, for instance, where the life gained was equal to the amount of PiPs spent on the attack times 2...
See, the only problem with this kind of thing, as much as you'd think it'd be simple and a great addition, is that it's value is hard to tell. Theoretically, you could balance it for the hardest hitting moves in the game, but then the power has to cost too much... I find it really annoying, because I really do want to add something like this, but things that give any kind of benefit based on damage dealt are really hard to work with. Even if we add a pip cap, it can go crazy with the Hawkeye items for Sneak Attack. If we add a maximum to the health gained... it could work, but wouldn't look as fun and you'd feel like you aren't getting good enough value if you don't hit that ceiling.

How about making its cost variable with the healing? For instance, you can make it a reaction that costs X pips, and the ability only heals you for 5*X hp maxiumum, if there is enough damage for it.

For instance, you do 12 damage with an ability - that means you can heal for 10 by paying 2 pips, or for 12 if you pay 3 Pips (you lose out on 3 hp, though, since you didn't to enough damage).

Alternately, you apply the same principle to the skill as a "gamble" - you pay X pips to set a maximum hp you want to heal (e.g. you're missing 15 hp, you pay three pips to be able to heal for that much) before you see the result of the damage, and then you hope for a high damage output to utilize it to its fullest - an investment at a risk.

One could adjust the balance of the hp/pip cost in both cases.

The talent would probably also need to be altered to accept only rolled damage dice values (no flat damage), or only the pure, non-boosted effects of the triggering ability (e.g. it ignores the effects of "meditate" or such other chains/boosts). It might also need a 1/round limitation.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:34 pm

Zarhon wrote:
Kindulas wrote:
Dusk Raven wrote:Since I'm just that desperate to provide, I'm going to suggest this combat talent, which I don't think is in place:

[-2] Leech Life - Interrupt Utility
Trigger – You deal damage to an enemy using a single-target attack.
Effect - You gain life equal to the damage dealt.

Open to tweaking. I pondered an alternate version, for instance, where the life gained was equal to the amount of PiPs spent on the attack times 2...
See, the only problem with this kind of thing, as much as you'd think it'd be simple and a great addition, is that it's value is hard to tell. Theoretically, you could balance it for the hardest hitting moves in the game, but then the power has to cost too much... I find it really annoying, because I really do want to add something like this, but things that give any kind of benefit based on damage dealt are really hard to work with. Even if we add a pip cap, it can go crazy with the Hawkeye items for Sneak Attack. If we add a maximum to the health gained... it could work, but wouldn't look as fun and you'd feel like you aren't getting good enough value if you don't hit that ceiling.

How about making its cost variable with the healing? For instance, you can make it a reaction that costs X pips, and the ability only heals you for 5*X hp maxiumum, if there is enough damage for it.

For instance, you do 12 damage with an ability - that means you can heal for 10 by paying 2 pips, or for 12 if you pay 3 Pips (you lose out on 3 hp, though, since you didn't to enough damage).

Alternately, you apply the same principle to the skill as a "gamble" - you pay X pips to set a maximum hp you want to heal (e.g. you're missing 15 hp, you pay three pips to be able to heal for that much) before you see the result of the damage, and then you hope for a high damage output to utilize it to its fullest - an investment at a risk.

One could adjust the balance of the hp/pip cost in both cases.

The talent would probably also need to be altered to accept only rolled  damage dice values (no flat damage), or only the pure, non-boosted effects of the triggering ability (e.g. it ignores the effects of "meditate" or such other chains/boosts). It might also need a 1/round limitation.
Brilliant
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:39 pm

Also, since most of you guys are only skype players, if we decide to add something in an expansion that only works in board, we'll add it on top of the normal 5, so you guys won't ever have an expansion with only 3-4 elements that you can play with.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Dusk Raven on Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:25 pm

Zarhon wrote:
Kindulas wrote:
Dusk Raven wrote:Since I'm just that desperate to provide, I'm going to suggest this combat talent, which I don't think is in place:

[-2] Leech Life - Interrupt Utility
Trigger – You deal damage to an enemy using a single-target attack.
Effect - You gain life equal to the damage dealt.

Open to tweaking. I pondered an alternate version, for instance, where the life gained was equal to the amount of PiPs spent on the attack times 2...
See, the only problem with this kind of thing, as much as you'd think it'd be simple and a great addition, is that it's value is hard to tell. Theoretically, you could balance it for the hardest hitting moves in the game, but then the power has to cost too much... I find it really annoying, because I really do want to add something like this, but things that give any kind of benefit based on damage dealt are really hard to work with. Even if we add a pip cap, it can go crazy with the Hawkeye items for Sneak Attack. If we add a maximum to the health gained... it could work, but wouldn't look as fun and you'd feel like you aren't getting good enough value if you don't hit that ceiling.

How about making its cost variable with the healing? For instance, you can make it a reaction that costs X pips, and the ability only heals you for 5*X hp maxiumum, if there is enough damage for it.

For instance, you do 12 damage with an ability - that means you can heal for 10 by paying 2 pips, or for 12 if you pay 3 Pips (you lose out on 3 hp, though, since you didn't to enough damage).

Alternately, you apply the same principle to the skill as a "gamble" - you pay X pips to set a maximum hp you want to heal (e.g. you're missing 15 hp, you pay three pips to be able to heal for that much) before you see the result of the damage, and then you hope for a high damage output to utilize it to its fullest - an investment at a risk.

One could adjust the balance of the hp/pip cost in both cases.

The talent would probably also need to be altered to accept only rolled  damage dice values (no flat damage), or only the pure, non-boosted effects of the triggering ability (e.g. it ignores the effects of "meditate" or such other chains/boosts). It might also need a 1/round limitation.

I actually pondered having something like that, but figured it'd be a tad complex to figure out. As it is, it's understandable to me.

Alternatively, you could have it as a single-use Trinket, where you don't quite have to worry about costs as much... but as a talent, as Zarhon described, I think it works.
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Bonus Expansion - kicking things off

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:18 am

Alright guys, your suggestions are looking awesome and we're prepping for Friday's expansion.
But before that, to kick things off I'm adding in a special present. Five combat talents have arrived to open up some new options. It isn't particularly flashy, but it's a handy set of damage dealers (and a work-around for those who hate choosing your 5 talents every battle).

Also, Sorcerers learned Fire. Because thematically, what they should be about is chaotic elemental energies - fire and lightning. We won't be moving fireball and Inferno over to them because they fit the Wizard as "AoE stuff," but that's why "Firebolt" is allowed to be there now. Besides, we were running out of ways to say "Lightning Bolt"

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Dusk Raven on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:24 am

Observation: How is Hand of Death different from the Rogue's Stab ability? Best I can figure is that the different wording means that talents that require damage be dealt won't work with Hand of Death.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:29 am

Dusk Raven wrote:Observation: How is Hand of Death different from the Rogue's Stab ability? Best I can figure is that the different wording means that talents that require damage be dealt won't work with Hand of Death.
Actually, it does a few interesting things - I'm writing a rules addition to clarify the significance of life loss without being "damage" that will be up shortly. I'll put it here and in Errata as well
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:30 am

Kindulas wrote:Changes aren't a part of an expansions thread.

That's...interesting. How exactly would one go about suggestions that are technically talent revamps as opposed to brand new content? A few things I didn't think were ready to propose for this week fit into that category.

With seeing the expansion, is Hand of Death supposed to be an "attack" or a utility that does damage? The wording makes it seem like it bypasses resistance but doesn't benefit from vulnerability since they lose health rather than take damage. Perhaps a comment in the sidebar is in order if so.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:50 am

okay, so I've gone ahead and added this clarification to the expansion as well:

Loss of Life - Some talents may cause a creature (such as yourself, perhaps) to “Lose HP” or “Pay HP” without dealing “damage.”  Not only does this mean things that talk about damage being dealt won’t apply (such as an interrupt whose trigger is “You would be dealt damage”), but it also doesn't trigger resistance OR vulnerability. Furthermore, if the creature has temporary hit points, those aren’t factored in - “losing hp” only affects normal hp, so a creature can be killed or dropped unconscious with their temporary hp still intact.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:51 am

ZamuelNow wrote:
Kindulas wrote:Changes aren't a part of an expansions thread.

That's...interesting.  How exactly would one go about suggestions that are technically talent revamps as opposed to brand new content?  A few things I didn't think were ready to propose for this week fit into that category.

With seeing the expansion, is Hand of Death supposed to be an "attack" or a utility that does damage?  The wording makes it seem like it bypasses resistance but doesn't benefit from vulnerability since they lose health rather than take damage.  Perhaps a comment in the sidebar is in order if so.
1) You could start a thread about it, PM us perhaps - I know Zarhon has recently started a thread for discussing under-powered, neglected talents that should be changed or buffed, so you could talk about stuff there.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:57 am

Actually, maybe we should have an official thread specifically for that purpose?

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:13 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Actually, maybe we should have an official thread specifically for that purpose?
I was thinking perhaps we should... but that's when I realized Zarhon kind of did that for us. Unless, of course, we need something more general... an overall "Errata Suggestions" or something. Actually, that's also a place for people who need to alert us to typos and things, instead of putting that in "Ask a simple Question," so yeah we probably should
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:15 am

Yeah, maybe a thread for top improvements/changes the way this one is focused on the best new ideas (people limited to 2 per week) so we can reach out the best suggested improvements and nerfs quickly.

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  A1C Bronymous on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:35 am

On the new stuff in that link- Prepare spell is probably the most useful thing I've seen (trumping Gather Energy), and I can't imagine many future builds will not have that (don't know about working it in to current ones). Heartseeker, though, appears to be supremely inferior to Furious Rage, which costs the same- unbloodied there is only a 4 pt discrepancy between potential damage outputs in favor of Heartseeker, but a whole 12 points the other way when bloodied. So unless you can manage never being bloodied, Furious Rage just seems like a much more economical choice.

And you shouldn't use that as an excuse to nerf Furious Rage. That's bad parenting.
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Dusk Raven on Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:47 am

Bronymous wrote:On the new stuff in that link- Prepare spell is probably the most useful thing I've seen (trumping Gather Energy), and I can't imagine many future builds will not have that (don't know about working it in to current ones). Heartseeker, though, appears to be supremely inferior to Furious Rage, which costs the same- unbloodied there is only a 4 pt discrepancy between potential damage outputs in favor of Heartseeker, but a whole 12 points the other way when bloodied. So unless you can manage never being bloodied, Furious Rage just seems like a much more economical choice.

And you shouldn't use that as an excuse to nerf Furious Rage. That's bad parenting.

On top of that, it makes Sense Weakness even less useful, as it takes the enemy having vulnerability to deal 3d8 while Heartseeker can routinely deal 2d12.

As per Prepare Spell - I agree with Bronymous in its usefulness, to the point where I think it eclipses Open Options (if OO was even useful to begin with).
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  A1C Bronymous on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:10 am

I still use Open Options, because that combined with the 1/battle talent swap is really useful when planned out, AND its +3 pips (+6 when used twice, like I do it). Prepare Spell is good for just in general having builds that need at minimum 6 usable talents, and little room for swapping. Would also free up a trait for said builds, as they would no longer necessarily need Dangerously Talented (but then it stacks and even more options are opened up).
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:02 am

Mindfray, DOESN'T say what type of move that be...

Hand of Death is awesome talent... It's a "non-damage-dealing" attack, so it'd basically giving people a loophole for insane monster builds.... The attacks that'll be able to avoid both resist AND temp-HP, the only downside is the bypass of vul as well... But THAT'S TOTALLY WORTH IT! Given it's pro's vastly outweigh it's cons.


Last edited by Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Ramsus on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:15 am

Kindulas, iirc you and others were still unhappy with the balance of the current Meditate no? Your response to my suggestion didn't sound like you objected on account of balance. Would you find it more palatable if it simply had a different name? Like... I dunno.... Focus?

If it is a balance issue, I would still like there to be something similar. So, if that's the issue, how much bonus damage would you find acceptable for that same mechanic?
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:30 am

Ramsus wrote:Kindulas, iirc you and others were still unhappy with the balance of the current Meditate no? Your response to my suggestion didn't sound like you objected on account of balance. Would you find it more palatable if it simply had a different name? Like... I dunno.... Focus?

If it is a balance issue, I would still like there to be something similar. So, if that's the issue, how much bonus damage would you find acceptable for that same mechanic?
It's true, it's not so much a balance issue, that as a minor would be something different. A -3 minor to add 1d12 to your next single target would be appropriate, since 3 pips is worth 6.5 damage (is worth a standard action)
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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:30 am

Xel Unknown wrote:Mindfray, DOESN'T say what type of move that be...

Hand of Death is awesome talent... It's a non-attack, that'll be able to avoid both resist AND temp-HP, the only downside is the bypass of vul as well... But THAT'S TOTALLY WORTH IT! Given it's pro's vastly outweigh it's cons.
1) Good catch!
2) Technically, it's an attack - but most things pay more attention to the word "damage" than they do being an attack. I'm glad you like it!

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Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:33 am

Kindulas wrote:
Xel Unknown wrote:Mindfray, DOESN'T say what type of move that be...

Hand of Death is awesome talent... It's a non-attack, that'll be able to avoid both resist AND temp-HP, the only downside is the bypass of vul as well... But THAT'S TOTALLY WORTH IT! Given it's pro's vastly outweigh it's cons.
1) Good catch!
2) Technically, it's an attack - but most things pay more attention to the word "damage" than they do being an attack. I'm glad you like it!

Yeah I did notice that mistype on my part, and did edit that post... But still, a non-damage attack that has an enemy lose HP. That clearly is a nice bypass move for GMs to build monsters to make that even more awesome in that combat. Or other coolness events.
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