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Not sure. But you said something about changing die rolls for talents to make them balance, and it sounded like you're going to be changing roll totals and the like, which then points toward the high probability of things doing less damage after the future.

I have no idea. Just don't do it. It's lame.

I know the idea of nerfs is never fun, but we definitely need to make sure the system is balanced. Some talents will be nerfed some will be buffed. Eventually, the ideal is to have a system were most things (a few exceptions for people that like a challenge and some slightly-above-average options for people that like maximizing the system) are very close to equal power to one another. That way, when every option is near equal in power, there are more legitimate builds out there for people to enjoy.

If we do a +1, -1, -3 spread AND redo + powers so that they, well, make sense (a +1 isn't actually 2/3rds of a [0] at all, it's more)
Then, with a [0] at 6.5 damage, a -1 would be
6.5 * (2/3) = 4.33333 ~ 4.5 = 1d8
4.5 / 8 = .5625 ~ 0.5

6.5 * 4/3 = 8+(2/3)
(26/3) / 10 = 0.86666666666666666666666 ~ 0.75

6.5 * 2 = 13
13 / 12 = 1.08 ~ 1

Thus, a d8 is worth 5 average damage instead of 4.5
A d10 would be worth 6.25 instead of 5.5
A d12 would be worth 7.5 instead of 6.5

That's... if we make +1s 1d8 base.
And that, THAT ALONE is SUCH a massive change that it would demand not being an alteration in the current framework, but a full rework. And probably ruin Bronymous's day.
Thing is, do +1 and +2 powers really need to be the appropriate 2/3rds and 1/3rds of the hypothetical [0] action? Since, even if +1s or +2s are more powerful than that, it isn't actually a superior tactic to only use them, because then you'll have pips, and using pips is still more powerful than not using them....
But that would also make d8 specials powers not a convenient 0.5 damage as a +1s power...
But then, we could calculate the specials by damage anyway... like... a d8 special could do roughly a d8s worth of damage, a d10 a d10, and d12 a d12... not a very exciting change... but the idea is we could just choose convenient damage numbers, not pip-counts (non-damage specials would be calculated as the equivalent utility to that much damage)

BUT THIS
This is NOT a place to discuss changes. This is a place to discuss additions!

And it wouldn't be a 2.0 of the system, it'd be a 2.0 of the combat, which is something we would have to have before we can have a *full* release at all

Anyway, I've had a draft for a conjuration special in my file for awhile now, with the idea that the 12 summons a specially made conjuration. There's been a mech suit sitting there to... I need to start releasing my Engineer talents.

Yay! Engi is my second fav class in TF2!

Even if you aren't building him like that. It'll still be quite cool. Bet he'll have at least one conjure option if not built to work like a support option for conjurers...

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Now to get back on topic, becuase building for the combat system is so easy, and becuase I'd enjoy seeing more "spend extra action" talents here's a suggestion for one: (also I've only done one suggestion of my two a week choice)

[+5] Prep-Time - Standard Utility
You must expend a minor action to activate this combat talent. You then suffer both vulnerability 3 and daze until the end of your next turn.

Technically I made an Inventor Class. That kinda counts right?

Kindulas wrote:And it wouldn't be a 2.0 of the system, it'd be a 2.0 of the combat, which is something we would have to have before we can have a *full* release at all

All things considered, I think the current goal should be a sort of 1.5 for combat (adjust some of the bigger outliers but keep the base system the same for now) while focusing some of the pressing non-combat issues like the Monster Compendium (well...technically that's combat), Boon Revamp, updating the GM Guide, and clarifying various portions of the rules. Then after the system as a whole is closer to a complete status, then work towards a full combat 2.0 update.

Isn't this still an open beta of a tabletop gaming system? Should we really be counting off official iterations yet?

ZamuelNow wrote:

Kindulas wrote:And it wouldn't be a 2.0 of the system, it'd be a 2.0 of the combat, which is something we would have to have before we can have a *full* release at all

All things considered, I think the current goal should be a sort of 1.5 for combat (adjust some of the bigger outliers but keep the base system the same for now) while focusing some of the pressing non-combat issues like the Monster Compendium (well...technically that's combat), Boon Revamp, updating the GM Guide, and clarifying various portions of the rules.  Then after the system as a whole is closer to a complete status, then work towards a full combat 2.0 update.

Yeah, it works well enough I don't really think we need to go full revamp on the combat just yet, mainly just nerf the crazy broken 12s. After that, there are other priorities before we worry about a huge balance revamp.

sunbeam wrote:Isn't this still an open beta of a tabletop gaming system? Should we really be counting off official iterations yet?

Fair point, I guess "2.0" is just a way of phrasing to say "Um... let's just start a second copy of everything instead of tweaking." But yeah, now we're going "Is it really 2.0, or more like this number, or is it..." and that's not important.

*looks at Pick of the Litter* Um.... wasn't that one of my ideas back from the original prototype of GE?

Hm, with the addition of the spellbook weapon, the "dangerously talented" trait loses half of its benefit (the "take extra combat talent" one, that is) to anyone who might want to take that, which is about 1000g and/or trait slot wasted. Perhaps another trait or item could be made, to supplement the "Spellbook" for this purpose?

So have something to fix that - extra combat talent options!

Scrollcase / Eidetic Memory:

And for my other submission... Something for assists!

Friends Forever:

Zarhon wrote:Hm, with the addition of the spellbook weapon, the "dangerously talented" trait loses half of its benefit (the "take extra combat talent" one, that is) to anyone who might want to take that, which is about 1000g and/or trait slot wasted. Perhaps another trait or item could be made, to supplement the "Spellbook" for this purpose?

So have something to fix that - extra combat talent options!

Scrollcase / Eidetic Memory:

And for my other submission... Something for assists!

Friends Forever:

Dangerously Talented could use a buff too, since it doesn't actually do anything to make you more powerful...

Anyway, as to the assist skill, I would say it depends on whether the average is below +20, because that's what the 'specialiszed magic talents' Yee-Haw and The Stare do, and since this would be for an skill, it would have to be less. Sound like the bonuses that can be gained on an assist check *would* be a bit extreme in that case. Of course... not any skill check can be assisted. Would help the fairness if you don't add the highest roll, but just your own assist.

Kindulas wrote:

Zarhon wrote:Hm, with the addition of the spellbook weapon, the "dangerously talented" trait loses half of its benefit (the "take extra combat talent" one, that is) to anyone who might want to take that, which is about 1000g and/or trait slot wasted. Perhaps another trait or item could be made, to supplement the "Spellbook" for this purpose?

Dangerously Talented could use a buff too, since it doesn't actually do anything to make you more powerful...

On the contrary, the two combo quite well. It's "learn an extra combat talent" and "bring all your combat talents" which would do wonders for some builds and offers flexibility for some. Also, while the Spellbook has a shockingly low gold cost, it has an interesting opportunity cost in that it takes up the weapon slot so some builds should ignore it in favor of other weapons. At the same time, it's not fighting for build space with all of the various trinkets out there. It really is a brilliantly designed item that adds a lot to the game. At most, it could probably stand to be 1000 gold instead of 500 but it otherwise seems fine as is.

I believe Kindulas was talking about how Dangerously Talented doesn't make you more effective in combat in general - it just gives you added versatility in your combat talent pool. I don't believe he was talking about its potential synergy with spellbook.

I think Dangerously Talented adds plenty of power but it does so laterally rather than vertically. I won't complain about a buff if it's purely a buff as opposed to a change but I really think it's one of the hidden gems of the system. Spellbook probably just opens up it's full potential.

I'm honestly not sure how Spellbook interacts at all with Dangerously Talented.

Spellbook lets you effectively take +3 talents into battle (8 instead of 5).

Dangerously talented gives you +1 talent you know but also +1 to take into battle. It doesn't really affect how many *extra* talents you have access to via spellbook.

Not quite sure how they meaningfully interact. What am I missing? I love combos.

Dangerously Talented can stack with itself. If my math is right (which means it's probably wrong...), that means someone at level 10 can walk into battle with 18 combat talents if they took the 5 trinket trait and bought copies of DT with Training Certificates. While it doesn't increase your direct power, the versatility makes you the Swiss Army Knife for practically any situation. After a point the usefulness diminishes so that other traits/trinkets might be good to use along with it but it's very good for a reactionary player as opposed to one locked into a static battle plan. Probably more useful for support builds than damage builds though even they can use it. I guess that's it, I think more of reactionary builds.

But how does that combine with spellbook to make DT more powerful?

Also you can't equip more than 1 training certificate that gives the same talent.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:But how does that combine with spellbook to make DT more powerful?

Because it's not possible without it. Without Spellbook, you still have to leave three combat talents behind instead of bringing everything.

thematthew wrote:Also you can't equip more than 1 training certificate that gives the same talent.

Ah, so that drops to 15, I believe.

Well, getting back to suggestions. The name from the first one came from Zarhon.

Photosynthetic:

Next one is, technically intended as a replacement for the Metalcrafting utility talent but I'll post here:

Element Master:

So basically, you're not saying Spellbook interacts with DT - but rather they'd all be part of an overall versatility package.