Re: New Expansions - New Content - Post your favorites here

Xel Unknown Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:49 pm

Oh my... I don't care what it becomes... But I wanta play with something with that...

A1C Bronymous Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:54 pm

It's really specific though. I mean, if you know you're in a game where time travel and stuff like that is common, then taking it makes sense, but other than that...

Usually DMs are pretty forthcoming with time of day and such. So its really the "difference in the time stream" thing that's the draw. And because its a passive thing, it definitely relies on a situation that may not ever be present in a given game.

ZamuelNow Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:21 pm

I'm certainly open to suggestions. It originally wasn't high on my list of things to suggest but figured "why not" since its a freebie of sorts.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:08 pm

I've already made one suggestion, so here is my second.

Weapon Efficiency
Select one conjured weapon, the PiP costs of talents granted by that conjured weapon are reduced by one.

Basically, its a more general version off:

Celestial Warrior
Prerequisite: Staff of the Stars
Reduce the energy costs of talents granted by the Celestial Staff by 1

I mean, if the trait weapon can have such a trait, why not ordinary conjured weapons as well?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:04 pm

Because let's say there's a theoretical [-1] Free Attack in the future that deals 1 damage or something on a conjured weapon. This trait would deal infinite damage with that.

Conjured Weapons break a lot of the system's rules in terms of power for their cost - so support for them needs to be designed carefully and with a clear understanding of how it interacts with all the possibilities.

**Paper Shadow** Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:06 pm

Can't you only use one free action a turn?

Xel Unknown Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:12 pm

Yeah we only get one free action a round I thought... *goes to check* odd... It doesn't say how many free actions we get a round in combat.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:12 pm

Free actions are free. Use as many as you can afford.

If there's a rule somewhere stating otherwise, let me know so it can be changed to how it's supposed to be.

Quietkal Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:14 pm

You can only use one per trigger as an interrupt; that's probably where it's carrying over from.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:15 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Because let's say there's a theoretical [-1] Free Attack in the future that deals 1 damage or something on a conjured weapon. This trait would deal infinite damage with that.

Conjured Weapons break a lot of the system's rules in terms of power for their cost - so support for them needs to be designed carefully and with a clear understanding of how it interacts with all the possibilities.

Weapon Efficiency
Select one conjured weapon, the PiP costs of Standard talents granted by that conjured weapon are reduced by one.

Problem solved. Makes sure something like Shield Valour doesn't becoming majorly powerful, but still buffs all conjured weapons quite a bit.

Xel Unknown Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:16 pm

Not so Fury... It'd still lead to problems to how one builds future conjure weapons.... That's why these types of talents are best limited to only one conjered weapon.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Not so Fury... It'd still lead to problems to how one builds future conjure weapons.... That's why these types of talents are best limited to only one conjered weapon.

So, make a trait for each conjured weapon?

That'll be difficult.

If that makes things so powerful. Just add a trait prerequisite or something.

Its unfair that the trait weapon gets such a major power-boost, but the other conjured weapons don't.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:20 pm

Not really concerned with being fair to the other conjured weapons, as the trait weapon is supposed to be special, but reducing the cost of standard actions only does solve quite a few problems (naturally you wouldn't want to reduce them to less than 0 in order to be absolutely safe, though this might not be a necessary restriction).

Fury of the Tempest Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:27 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Not really concerned with being fair to the other conjured weapons, as the trait weapon is supposed to be special, but reducing the cost of standard actions only does solve quite a few problems (naturally you wouldn't want to reduce them to less than 0 in order to be absolutely safe, though this might not be a necessary restriction).

The trait weapon is already special by being more powerful than a normal conjured weapon.

Why can't the conjured weapons get the same boost it gets? Their still less powerful overall.

A1C Bronymous Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:36 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Free actions are free. Use as many as you can afford.

If there's a rule somewhere stating otherwise, let me know so it can be changed to how it's supposed to be.

It's been ruled before (probably in this exact thread), that you can only use one per round. It's also been ruled the other way. Basically, you guys keep not putting a definite ruling in the book, and people keep forgetting- including those making the rulings.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:38 pm

@Fury - I didn't say they couldn't. However, there's no reasons they *have* to.

If a trait works, we'll probably use it. Your use of only affecting standard actions could well work.

@Bronymous - Free actions are intended to be free. It was limited in the past because it was thought to be necessary to keep things from breaking, like other systems need, but the pip system handles the issue just fine.

A1C Bronymous Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:40 pm

Thats debatable. But as of yet there aren't a whole lot of exploitable "Free actions", so it's probably fine for now.

Fury of the Tempest Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:41 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:@Fury - I didn't say they couldn't. However, there's no reasons they *have* to.

Same goes for Staff of the Stars. It didn't need the Celestial Warrior trait as an upgrade, yet it does.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:49 pm

Your argument that "it isn't fair that other weapons don't have the support this unique weapon-trait does" isn't impressive.

However, that doesn't mean there aren't other good arguments to be made for that support being added.

That particular argument isn't valid. Other arguments could well be (I already said multiple times that your suggestion of just dealing with standard actions could work).

Fury of the Tempest Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:08 pm

I'm not an arguer.

I suck at them.

I'm just stating my opinion here, and the reasoning behind my suggestion.

That is all.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:05 am

Also, Pheromones - it's rather overly-rules-heavy. True, most of the text is in the options, but I feel we should cut some of the detail-orientedness of it. Frankly, if you abstract it to just being an area X feet around you, it's more easily re-flavored to other things like psionic effects.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:07 am

Any free actions that would be broken by being usable more than 1/Round can just get a specific limiter (and some do). No need to bring down talents with no need for the limit just because some do, when limiting on a case-by-case basis isn't too hard a task.

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:16 am

Zarhon wrote:Here's my suggestions for this week!

First off, something for the Changelings, insectoid races, and other creatures that use pheromones...
Pheromones - Racial:
As far as the cost of this racial goes... No idea. Best guess would be either:
1) Price the pheromones themselves per effect, making the actual ability cost (0), and each pheromone costs varies (1-3, or something)
2) Have the initial pheromones racial cost a bunch (2-4), and subsequent extra pheromones are a cheap, stand-alone "upgrade racial".
3) Have pheromones cost cheap (1) and you can pick it repeatedly to get the other effects (full 8 points to get all the pheromones).

And secondly, something to assist both ongoing damage builds, AOE builds, as well as builds that require save-ends conditions.
Arc Slash - Combat Talent:

The combat talents could use a bunch of AOE attacks, or cheap AOE save-ends effects.

As with Arc Slash, my first instinct is "Of course!" But on second thought, that makes Despair combos... meaninglessly easy, and despair will become unquestionably OP if it isn't already... which actually highlights a possible problem if it's powerful enough that we have to worry about its existence when designing... talents that limit design are a known issue... also it's sad we made it a Psion move before Alchemist was a thing, because that is so Despair's rightful home.

Zarhon Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:41 am

Kindulas wrote:Also, Pheromones - it's rather overly-rules-heavy. True, most of the text is in the options, but I feel we should cut some of the detail-orientedness of it. Frankly, if you abstract it to just being an area X feet around you, it's more easily re-flavored to other things like psionic effects.

Yeah, I sort of focus on the ruling to avoid it being broken by an obvious loophole in its mechanics, leaving the decisions of what is needed/useable to the devs in charge. Is the idea itself solid? What sort of "cuts" do you have in mind?

Kindulas wrote:As with Arc Slash, my first instinct is "Of course!" But on second thought, that makes Despair combos... meaninglessly easy, and despair will become unquestionably OP if it isn't already... which actually highlights a possible problem if it's powerful enough that we have to worry about its existence when designing... talents that limit design are a known issue... also it's sad we made it a Psion move before Alchemist was a thing, because that is so Despair's rightful home.

Well, the thing with Despair is that's it's pretty much the only reasonable talent option for such a tactic. The others are just not worth it, especially with the finicky nature of save ends conditions (unless you heavily invest in making chances work in your favor) and the high cost of combos. For instance, Acid Rain - it's practically the same ability, only a lot more expensive, and as such you can't really use it with anything without getting 10+ pips in advance, or relying on ally cooperation, or wasting a lot of its cost on a single target or two, rather than its full range.

Despair seems to be balanced by the fact it is impractical to properly pull off yourself with anything, or can almost never do it's full potential. It's also worth noting that the combos are pretty much guaranteed to take at least two standard actions, but not guaranteed to be usable (leaving a constant risk of a waste of spent pips, if the combo 'breaks' due to bad luck). How far can one go with the investment cost/risk before they decide it's not worth it over a simpler, direct method?

**Kindulas** Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:52 am

Pheromones... I'm not sure what to think really. I do harken to my alter emotions idea. Some of them are a problem, but I wouldn't say it's unworkable necessarily. It's an odd one, but as a general thing altering other people's emotional states doesn't sound inherently problematic

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