Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

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Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:34 pm

This is a place to propose or discuss changes to combat talents, destinies, utility talents, items or anything else you like. Comment on recent changes, highlight things that seem too powerful, too weak or have spelling and grammar errors that you've noticed.

Previously, the Errata Announcement thread has been used to announce changes as well as to discuss them or propose them. However, that's a little inconvenient for people subscribed to the thread that just want to get emails about what the rule changes are and not read all the discussion surrounding them.

So let's take care of all that here from now on. Enjoy!

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Paper Shadow on Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:42 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:There is now a thread for discussing potential changes to errata in the official game and updates forum (which is where this thread is too). From now on, let's talk about stuff there and leave this for the actual updates.
You should most likely lock the old thread then so only mods and admins can make posts about the updates. If you do that, I suggest posting those updates here as well, because no one likes awkward transitions...

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:00 pm

Is it still two per week like the other thread?  Anyways:

One With the Waves:
One with the Waves (1)
You can breathe underwater.

One With the Waves feels rather underwhelming compared to the other various elemental racials.  Fireborn allows you to both walk in lava and breathe non-combat flames.  OWtW gives you...super not drowning skills.  It's useful in some situations but it doesn't feel aquatic enough for its name.  While I do know that there's been a suggestion made for an element-born variant, the original OWtW could stand to have a buff.  Thunderborn and Thunderbird are good examples of similar themed racials with different purposes.

One With the Waves - Revamp:
One with the Waves (1)
Either by the innate ability to breathe underwater or constant practice at holding your breath for long periods of time, you can not drown. You may roll twice on all skill checks made to swim, dive, or surf bodies of water and take the higher result.

Still has limits but is more useful.  Also, leaves room for aquatic creatures who breathe air like walruses.



TK:
Telekinesis – At Will
Preparation Time: Instantaneous
You may mentally pick up or manipulate any number of objects within fifty feet of you with combined weights of 50 lbs. or less.

Advanced Telekinesis - 3/Day
Preparation Time: Instantaneous
For the next ten minutes, you may mentally pick up or manipulate any number of objects within fifty feet of you with combined weights of 200 lbs. or less. You may spend a magic point to increase the maximum weight limit to 1000 lbs for the next 10 minutes instead.

Metalcrafting  - 1/Day
Preparation Time: 5 Seconds
For the next ten minutes, you may mentally pick up or move metal objects weighing 200 lbs or less. You can only manipulate one object at a time.

The update to Adv TK and the consolidation of telekinetic skills left Metalcrafting rather lacking in comparison.  Rather than try to buff Metalcrafting, I propose that it be rebuilt as a brand new power that can fit more concepts.

Element Master:
Element Master - 5/Day
Preparation Time: 5 Seconds
Choose a solid or liquid of choice such as water, soil, or metal when you select this power.  This power may be taken multiple times, using a different substance each time.  For the next ten minutes, you may mentally pick up or manipulate any number of inanimate objects made of your chosen substance within fifty feet of you with combined weights of 200 lbs. or less. You may spend a magic point to increase the maximum weight limit to 1000 lbs for the next 10 minutes instead.

The concept is that someone can specialize in an element and get a better buff with just it while there's still room for an all around telekinetic.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  kajisora on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:06 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:Is it still two per week like the other thread?  Anyways:

One With the Waves:
One with the Waves (1)
You can breathe underwater.

One With the Waves feels rather underwhelming compared to the other various elemental racials.  Fireborn allows you to both walk in lava and breathe non-combat flames.  OWtW gives you...super not drowning skills.  It's useful in some situations but it doesn't feel aquatic enough for its name.  While I do know that there's been a suggestion made for an element-born variant, the original OWtW could stand to have a buff.  Thunderborn and Thunderbird are good examples of similar themed racials with different purposes.

One With the Waves - Revamp:
One with the Waves (1)
Either by the innate ability to breathe underwater or constant practice at holding your breath for long periods of time, you can not drown. You may roll twice on all skill checks made to swim, dive, or surf bodies of water and take the higher result.

Still has limits but is more useful.  Also, leaves room for aquatic creatures who breathe air like walruses.
pretty much agreed to this.
in fact, I've been thinking for some time now that since we have so many different -born traits, it might be a good idea to scrap the variations and turn them into a kind of elemental FK. Something like this:
Extremophile:

Choose an environmental factor or element. You gain immunity to negative effects from direct interaction with this element, as well as limited control over this element at will.
Examples include fire, water, cold, acid or electricity.
This trait may be taken multiple times, but a different element must be chosen every time.

I realise this would be very much open to abuse (the wording would probably have to be tightened) but it does open up some really interesting races, including diggers (earth element: immune to choking on dirt/rock, tunneling ability from control)
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Zarhon on Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:41 pm

Alright. Here's a wishlist/number of propositions of mine...

1) Granite Axe:
A rework or update of Granite Axe - It's very weak and ineffective at its job of dealing damage (due to slow pip gain and reliance on temporary hp and not getting attacked yourself to do decent damage) and actual tanking (by having no control over who gets attacked, having a negligible and somewhat ineffective damage reduction/prevention, and its ultimate ability forcing the enemies to gang up and KO/defeat/kill you with impunity).

Zamuel suggested a fairly decent rework of it.
ZamuelNow wrote:A proposal to buffing Granite Axe:

Granite Axe - Revised:
[-7] Granite Axe – Minor Utility
You conjure a Granite Axe in your hands. You can dismiss the Granite Axe as a free action. While you are wielding a Granite Axe, you cannot use your other combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Stone Skin - Trait
You have resist 2. If you already have resistance, increase that resistance by 2.

[+3] Earth’s Embrace – Standard Attack
Target creature takes 3 damage and you gain resist 2 until the end of your next turn.

[+1] Strength of Stone – Standard Attack
Deal 1d8+X damage to target creature, where X is the number of temporary hit points you have.

[-1] Stone Strike – Minor Attack
Roll 2d4. Deal that much damage to target creature and you gain that many temporary hit points.

[-2] Grasping Granite - Interrupt Attack
Trigger - An enemy deals damage to an ally
Effect - Deal 2d8 damage to the triggering enemy and you gain that many temporary hit points.

[-4] Earthquake - Standard Attack
Deal 2d10 damage to up to six enemies.  Those creatures are weakened and cannot attack your allies until the end of your next turn.  The Granite Axe vanishes.
A lot of the changes are subtle but based on Zarhon's suggestions.  More focused on better tanking than more damage by changing the reaction to an interrupt, higher base resistance, more temp HP options, and adding a weaken to the ultimate's effect.

More on the subject was said here.
2) Assists:
An update or improvement of the "assist" mechanic - it is vague in its ruling (as far as both crits and assigned DCs go), somewhat unintuitive (often its better to just roll your own check then assisting another), and has next to no options for a "assist-oriented" character (no destinies, and the few utilities/racials there are, generally aren't worth taking over stronger, direct-skill boosting stuff). Boosting, "fun-factor" improvements, and general encouraging of its use is needed.
3) Other combat stuff:
Updates for "THIS IS NOT THIS DAY" (very impractical to use, even in the best of circumstances) and "Judo Throw" (Variable pip costs for damage dealt and cheap "ally fling", to allow its use on allies for defensive purposes as originally intended, rather than just the costly, pure offense as it currently is).
4) Aquatic / Water stuff:
I also agree with Zamuel as far as "aquatic" based options are concerned - the racial for water-breathing should have something extra tacked onto it, or be merged with another racial of similar purpose. The best way I see of this happening is to pretty much turn the water-breathing racial into a "waterborn" racial, allowing for water-powers (to use on land) and to make you optimally suited for diving or swimming. Whether this racial would have an improvement to swimming is questionable - but one can agree that swimming is a rather rare factor for games, unless they focus on a oceanic setting.

A similar change should extend to some of the other options for swimming/water breathing as well (dolphin form, which is rather useless for a vast majority of the game, and possibly the aquatic travel enchantment)
5) Other utilities:
Add some new "branches" of utilities, like for plants, necromancy, body-size manipulation, gravity manipulation...  Most of which are being discussed in this thread. "Elemental Powers" seem to be a pretty big focus.
6) Animal talents:
We have a bunch of animal talents - so many, in fact, that it's kind of discouraging to build one focused on it, due to the vast investment in utilities it requires. Would it be possible to "merge" some of the animal talents, or make some of them be less prerequisite-restricted, to allow for other options? The gap such merging would bring could be amended by creating powerful animal-based abilities (e.g. animal armies, transforming animals into other animals/ponies...)

And on the subject of animals - For all of those we have, there aren't any talents that allow for basic pet-like NPC or characters, serving as utilities (via some kind of benefit) and companions. Pets are great for character building and RPing!

Oh, and a small question: Does the recent "damage boosting" errata affect Meditate as well? It wasn't mentioned.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:19 am

I never really thought about it but assists could stand to be better defined.  I'm not as RPG experienced as most here but I've seen assists/team checks elsewhere needing to beat a static number across the campaign.  The reasoning is that you're just trying to help them as opposed to doing it yourself.  Also, assisting/aiding terminology needs to be standardized across the rules.

Assists/Team checks:
Need Some Help There?
Sometimes somepony (usually Fluttershy) needs a little help. At the DM’s discretion, a player can attempt to assist another player in a skill check. Doing this is simple, the player just rolls any skill check that might help (for example, if assisting with lockpicking the player might roll for Mechanics to help with the picking or History to provide a knowledge of locks). If the assisting player beats a DC 20, they provide a +2 bonus to the other player's skill roll.  A critical failure subtracts a -2 penalty to the player's roll while a critical success adds an additional +2 bonus on top of the normal assist.  Some racials and utility talents, such as the Earth Pony's Friend in Deed, add a higher skill bonus to the assist.  Assist bonuses from different players stack but each player may only attempt one assist per skill roll.

kajisora wrote:pretty much agreed to this.
in fact, I've been thinking for some time now that since we have so many different -born traits, it might be a good idea to scrap the variations and turn them into a kind of elemental FK. Something like this:
Extremophile:

Choose an environmental factor or element. You gain immunity to negative effects from direct interaction with this element, as well as limited control over this element at will.
Examples include fire, water, cold, acid or electricity.
This trait may be taken multiple times, but a different element must be chosen every time.

I realise this would be very much open to abuse (the wording would probably have to be tightened) but it does open up some really interesting races, including diggers (earth element: immune to choking on dirt/rock, tunneling ability from control)

Outside of the wording needing to be tightened up, the thing with specifying the element-borns is that each one has a unique breath ability that has different properties.  Still might be a decent idea but would take some fine tuning and GM work.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:21 am

Ok so yeah... my Skill Support thread really covers a lot of changes I'd like to see. Removal of a few (in particular The Sky's the Limit) and changes to a whole bunch of others that just aren't really right or fair the way they are. Eagle Eye and the Stare (compared to Yee-Haw!) are good examples on both sides of the fairness scale. I've detailed how and why Nimble Hooves, Stealth Mode, and Hop, Skip and Jump could be changed to be more fair to everyone as well.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Philadelphus on Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:28 am

I just noticed that the Items for Skype document has the "Spear - [Board Combat Only]" item in it. Second item on the list in the Weapons section.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:59 am

Detect Thoughts need to be reworded so that the fact that it's mind reading is more obvious.
Detect Thoughts - Revised:
Detect Thoughts - 3/Day
Preparation Time: 10 seconds
For the next minute you can read the surface thoughts currently running through the mind of a single creature you can see.

Adding the proposed adjustment from the other thread for Dis-chord
Dis-chord - Revised:
[-2] Dis-chord - Standard Utility
Flip a coin for each foe. If heads, that foe is now Confused (when they target a creature, flip a coin. If tails, they attack one of your enemies at random instead [save ends]). If the flip is tails, the foe's next attack against you deals an extra 1d12 damage.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:39 am

If we're discussing Dis-Chord, could we mention how it's not such a good thing to have a talent that costs you pips that can with bad luck turn an easy to win fight into a TPKO? I think the bonus enemy damage should be halved.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:41 am

Dis-chord has a huge amount of design issues. However, I think anyone making a tactical error like using a risky back-firing move on an easy-win fight probably should get bitten anyways. I do like it just hurting the user a lot though, that change would keep bad feelings from running around.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Zarhon on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:31 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:However, I think anyone making a tactical error like using a risky back-firing move on an easy-win fight probably should get bitten anyways.
If using it on a easy-won fight is an error, why would using it on a hard-won / dangerous fight (e.g. boss, anything with huge damage) be any less of a bad idea?
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:32 am

Because you don't want to gamble when you have an assured victory. You only reach for the high-risk/high-reward tactics when you need a much higher reward than playing it safe will get you.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:43 am

Honestly, I think just turning that +1d12 to a +1d6 would be a fair change. Hell just turning it to a +1d8 or +1d10 would make it more favable for me to even think of trying to use it. It's just too unreliable as is... You gotta win TWO coin flips to have anything positive happen from this talent by itself. Which is a bad thing...
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:58 pm

Thing is, it's currently significantly powerful in team builds. Buffing it more would make it ridiculous with the right team. I frankly think it just needs a complete redesign, based on the idea of a chaotic power that can hurt the user if it goes wrong but is more usable without the support of other players.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Zarhon on Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:02 pm

Should some clarifications be added for Spider Climb, Scent Tracker, Echolocation, and similar racials? Their names all vaguely imply abilities that go beyond the descriptions (Sticking to walls/ceilings, being able to "smell" well beyond the tracking aspect, augmented hearing/sonar...), and some of them apply static/rigid situational bonuses ("climbing" for Spider Climb, which likely doesn't include "hang off ceiling"; scent tracking for tracking purposes and not much else...) rather than give you something that others can't copy by rolling (granted, its harder, but still doable with a good roll or relevant bonuses). Any reason they aren't phrased more like "Magically Attuned"?

Zarhon wrote:
Stuff from Ask Questions Thread:


Spider Climb - Enchantment
Preparation Time: 10 seconds
You or an ally you can see gains a +10 bonus to skill checks made to climb surfaces.

Spider Climb (1)
Characters of your race have a +15 bonus to skill checks made to climb surfaces.

Scent Tracker (2) - At Will
Characters of your race can pick up a person’s scent off of an object they have worn or held. You gain a +15 bonus to tracking that creature, until their trail crosses water, is washed away by rain or encounters any other circumstance that would mask or remove scents.

1) Why do these two abilities (a utility talent and racial, respectively) have an identical name, but different effects? Do they stack together (allowing a +25 bonus)?

2) How long does Spider Climb (the enchanting utility) last, since its duration isn't specified? How long do any of the other "Enchanting" granted utilities last?

3) Is there a reason why Spider Climb doesn't allow "sticking to surfaces" as a default ability (considering the name, one would assume it lets you act like Spiderman), giving a flat bonus instead, that does not necessarily include sticking to surfaces (hanging upside down on a roof probably wouldn't count), just climbing them?

4) Why is Scent Tracker is so specified (allowing only tracking - it doesn't state your nose gets a +15 for anything else like smell identification and such, and the tracking demands an object), costs more than similar racials (like Spider Climb) and isn't a "passive ability" (like One With The Ocean allowing you to breathe underwater, or Magical Attunement letting you see magic), simply giving a high bonus instead?
Here are some proposed changes to consider:
Proposed changes:
Spider Climb (1)
Characters of your race can naturally adhere or stick to any solid surface, suffer no penalties from traversing slippery surfaces, and have a +15 bonus to skill checks made to climbing surfaces.

Fly on the Wall - Enchantment
Preparation Time: 10 seconds
You or an ally you can see gain the ability to stick to solid surfaces, and a +10 bonus to skill checks made to climb surfaces, for the next hour.

Scent Tracker (2) - At Will
Characters of your race can "see" the scents of other creatures via objects or locations they have interacted with or inhabited, and can track them until the trail crosses water, is washed away by rain, or encounters any other circumstance that would mask or remove scents. They also gain a +15 bonus to tracking, noticing and identifying the source/type of any scents, odors, smells or fragrances.

Echolocation (2)
Characters of your race can "see" in areas wherever sound can travel, including magical darkness, as easily as a normal human could in broad daylight. They cannot, however, distinguish colors this way. They also gain a +15 bonus to hearing-related skill checks.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:25 pm

With the other thread revealing how it actually can be useful, I think the main things Dis-Chord needs is to only apply the damage to enemies hitting the caster (handled in the reword via the suggestion from the other thread) and maybe lowering the damage since the main danger yet simultaneously the main benefit is using it against groups. I feel the system needs a few quirkier things in it and this is a high risk/high reward move that genuinely has a risk as opposed to just a minor turn delay. It's just that only the user should be burdened by that risk. Besides, entire builds are structured around other combat talents so I can't see why this would be an exception outside of the way it interacts with a teammate who also uses it.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:03 am

Um.... could we not make syphon life not a d8 move? +1's already have enough trouble getting used viably as is. I don't think we should be discouraging people by taking away their ability to crit. You could have it do 1d8-1 damage or do a smaller amount of healing or such but, taking away the d8 basically just means people will just pick something else.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:52 am

In their defence, at least this makes Divine Boon (and maybe Invigorating Strike) more viable, even if they can't self-heal...

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:24 pm

I'm not a fan of putting subtraction on dice rolls, as getting a 0 (or negative if that's possible, and that can get confusing) is a serious pain.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:38 pm

You have halving on damage other places. I think putting subtraction on the damage or reducing the healing are both better options than basically removing the talent from play.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:42 pm

Halving doesn't reduce damage to zero and it's usually used, very infrequently, to let players roll tons of dice or gain some neat side-benefit. If you crunch the numbers, this change doesn't remove the talent from play - it just prevents it from being overpowered.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:44 pm

If you don't crunch numbers and just care if it can crit or not, it does. Which is what most people are going to care about when choosing a +1 move.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:47 pm

Many players have built no-crit builds. There are many talents that can crit. If you'd like to submit an additional lifedrain combat talent that does have a crit chance, there's the weekly updates. This is the slickest way to bring the combat talent back into balance in the mean time. It doesn't preclude the possibility of adding more crit-worthy talents to the system afterwards.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Zarhon on Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:41 pm

From my personal experience, syphon life was pretty much a optimal choice for absolutely any build - it provides decent damage, grants a pip (always usable), grants a crit, allows for healing of you or an ally, and works with anything that combos with attacks (or healing). It was pretty much taken by at least one or two people in every party I've seen or played with, whether they wanted survivability, sustainability, or an option of offensive support/healing.
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Zarhon
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

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