Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:44 pm

I like the idea of Focus Points/Pips idea more the Energy too.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:45 pm

Something PiP's just sounds weird in general. But Focus sounds better.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:50 pm

I'm not sure I really care between the two. I kinda like energy a bit better for flavor reasons as being more correctly applicable (kinda sorta) to more characters.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Hayatecooper on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:03 pm

Eh, focus sounds cool
And this way the Devs get what they want and we can pretend we won and made them conform to what we wanted. Everyone wins!
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:51 pm

Very nice. Um...shouldn't this technically be in the other Errata thread since it's for the actual updates and this is for discussion?
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:54 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:Very nice.  Um...shouldn't this technically be in the other Errata thread since it's for the actual updates and this is for discussion?
lol, me can find right threads....
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:46 pm

Animal Magnetism references Animal Speech but, the Utility is Animal Speak.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:48 pm

Ramsus wrote:Animal Magnetism references Animal Speech but, the Utility is Animal Speak.
fixed
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:16 pm

Weather-Crafting has been brought up, as it's not currently clear whether it's supposed to be usable indoors and to what extent. It should definitely be clarified- the only question is whether it should clearly work indoors or not work indoors. The only real concern I have with indoor weather-crafting is generating lightning storms in the living room and other similarly catastrophic events - but that can surely be mitigated by adding some sort of loose restriction. The question is how best to do it.

Thoughts?

Here's the current talent for reference.

Weather-Crafter
Preparation Time: 5 Minutes
You can to alter the atmospheric conditions in a 100-foot radius. For example, you can make a sunny day rain or a rainy day clear up within the area of effect. You can also attempt a more difficult feat, such as creating a localized hurricane or forcing lightning strikes out of clouds to hit tall objects. Choose a skill when you learn Weather-Crafter, that skill becomes used for any skill checks used for these more difficult tasks - with DCs set at DM discretion.[*]

The skill can be anything that makes sense flavor-wise, such as Athletics or Acrobatics for manually moving clouds around. However, an interesting character concept might use Persuasion to talk to the weather and ask it to change or Mechanics to manipulate a custom weather machine. As long as it makes sense, it can be any skill you like

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:27 pm

Well my thoughts on indoor vs outdoor effects have been posted already. I would like to say that a 100 foot radius is pretty small, if we're going to change something maybe we could change feet to yards there (and for Heavy Weather obviously). It won't have any negative impact on Thundercrash since that's still a drop in the bucket compare to a mile.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:32 pm

I think it's a combination of specific versus broad thinking with this.  There's also another intriguing issue of buffing a talent laterally makes it's uses more...lateral.  Originally, Weather Crafting was Athletics/Acrobatics which would be like show canon pegasi.  Expanding to any skill automatically alters the conditions it could be used since you're no longer needing to move clouds around.  You kinda updated the system in a way that you can now make Storm (who can make indoor weather) as opposed to just Rainbow Dash.  There's also another issue that makes the indoor manipulation less of an issue and that's time.  Without having 10 Seconds Flat, weather creation takes 5 minutes.  In hostile situations it's liable for you to be caught without someone watching your back and in friendly situations it doesn't matter anyway unless you're rushing to surprise someone.  Sure, there might some penalties for space/moisture/pressure but the preparation time and the expansion to all skills theoretically make the argument moot.

The more catastrophic uses seem like they'd classify as things with higher DCs. Rather than changing the talent, perhaps there should be a chart of suggested base DCs and suggested modifiers. This seems more like a GM guide type thing than something built into the player talent page, though.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:36 pm

Personally I'd rather avoid a chart. Last time a chart was made was for Magecraft and all it served to do was force people into the mindset that those with Magecraft have to specialize in Arcana because of Dan&co's playstyle even when other GMs would not necessarily have come up with such high numbers or penalties for time on their own and would have allowed people with lower Arcana skill bonuses (like 11-12) to actually be able to do anything with those utilities. I'd rather not cause weather-crafting to also become a "specialists only" talent.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:37 pm

When it comes to any changes I'd do with Weather Crafter... I'd edit it's time contrate personally... And when it comes to the whole Indoor vs Outdoor thing, that strikes me more as something that'd need GM guildlines for. Or just a line that indoors weather crafting can be dangerous or something.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  tygerburningbright on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:39 pm

I for one really can't see why it can't be use within a structure.

The main issues with the talent at the moment have already been brought up tiny range and overly long prep time. Additionally well I feel Heavy Weather and 10 Seconds Flat are under powered for taking up an entire talent slot.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:53 pm

Maybe Heavy Weather but I see 10 Seconds Flat as being worth it.  Perhaps HW should be 1000 feet?  Would feel much more worth it, especially if you have 10SF.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Zarhon on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:57 pm

Well, since lightning can occur indoors in the form of Ball Lightning already, I'd say no restriction should apply.

Keep in mind that the only ones who would be safe within a room full of lightning would be someone with the thunderborn racial, and they already can generate lightning of their own. Everyone else is relying on luck not to get zapped by the highly-chaotic nature of it.

On the subject of weather-related talents, though, should there be an update/improvement to cloudsculpting, and the other weather utilities?

Wall of text below! Very Happy 
Weathercrafting talents analysis:

Cloudscuplting:
Cloudsculpting – 10/Day
Preparation Time: 10 Seconds
You craft a remarkably realistic cloud sculpture using... well, a cloud. Those seeing it from afar (further than 50 yards) mistake it as being real. Those within 50 yards make a DC25 check, or a DC15 check if within 10 yards to discern its identity. The sculpture floats without motion, unless wind or some other external force is involved, and disperses after one hour.
As it is written now, Cloudsculpting relies on being outdoors and at a great range to be of any use, and can only realistically mimic a flying object (since it is a cloud) - its fairly clear how it can be used, but that is extremely situational in itself. It's also not clear as to how stable the sculpture is (does it poof if you collide with it? Is it like a trampoline?), or how detailed one can make the sculpture. Perhaps Cloudsculpting should be reworded to work in a manner similar to fabricate, allowing the reliable creation of tools, furniture, decoys, or other such temporary stuff, that only you or similarly weather-able individuals can interact with? Maybe even make an option for a permanent cloudstuff creation for extra charges (e.g. a cloud sofa to keep in your room).

Lightning Rod:
Lightning Rod [Created by JasonShadow]
Prerequisite: Weather-Crafter
You gain a +7 bonus to Athletic or Acrobatics checks to gather rainstorms and thunderstorms, direct lightning, and similar when outside of combat. However, you suffer a -5 penalty to skill checks made to clear away the same atmospheric conditions.
This is a decent talent, but it has two issues: Firstly, how does one define the difficulty of making a thunderstorm? This just applies a +7 bonus to such, which, depending on how one would value the DC of a thunderstorm, might be waste of a talent, or utterly required to do lightning storms reliably. Secondly, this ONLY works for thunder and rain - no other weather effect can be manipulated (e.g. fog, hurricanes, and such).

Perhaps it could be reworded to have the player pick which weather effect they want to make at a bonus, but then they have the increased difficulty at making that created effect go away ("it's easier to break a vase than fix it")?

It could also work as a non-passive alternative to The Sky's The Limit, providing a bigger bonus, for a bigger penalty, but at a daily limit.

Lightning Rod Rework:
Derpy Weather - 3/day
Prerequisite: Weather-Crafter
Pick a specific atmospheric condition (e.g. thunderclouds, downpours, fog, tornados, snow, etc...). You gain a +10 bonus to checks to gather up and create a specific atmospheric condition of your choice  when outside of combat. However, you suffer a -10 penalty to skill checks made to clear away those same atmospheric conditions. Conditions created this way linger for much longer than they would normally, before dispersing.

The Sky's The Limit:
The Sky’s The Limit
Prerequisite: Weather-Crafter
Gain a +5 bonus to all checks you make in order to use the Weather-Crafter utility talent.
The main issue with this talent is that it's inferior to Freaky Knowledge. You can even outright replace it with such! It needs a buff, or some kind of extra improvement. One idea would be to combine it with Heavy Weather, or another similar talent, like cloudsculpting.

Heavy Weather:
Heavy Weather [Created by JasonShadow]
Prerequisite: Weather-Crafter
The range in which you can alter atmospheric conditions with your Weather-Crafter increases to a 200-foot radius.
The main issue with this passive is that its range improvement isn't exactly apparent - you're already dealing with a 100-foot radius, which presumably encloses a large area, and 100 extra feet is hard to measure / imagine for a DM. When does a player need a 200 foot weather effect, that a 100 foot one won't work for? It's an improvement, but not one that can be reliably "measured" as such. Compare it with Thundercrash - a mile radius is pretty much easily abstracted to include whatever area you need to affect. To that end, Thundercrash becomes a "more visible" improvement in the abilities, and as such, The Sky's The Limit doesn't seem like a good investment. You have no guarantee that your 200 range increase will ever be of any use, since 100 range probably works fine on its own.

Thundercrash:
Thundercrash - 1/Day
For the next five minutes, the range of your weathercrafting ability expands to a one mile radius.
This talent is good at what it does, but... Doesn't seem worth it, considering it's essentially usable once for a short duration (enough for ONE weather effect, unless you have "10 seconds flat"). Perhaps it can be merged along with Heavy Weather, as an extra "daily" you can perform?

Ten Seconds Flat:
Ten Seconds Flat [Created by JasonShadow]
Prerequisite: Weather-Crafter
The time it takes to alter atmospheric conditions decreases to 10 seconds.
No real issue here, though this talent is sort of a requirement if you want to do anything decent/immediate with Weathercrafting (and is practically require for Thundercrash to work). Maybe merge it with another benefit, to give it more value / less talent investment? Or perhaps make Weathercrafting in itself have a shortened duration (e.g. 1 minute), so that this "specialization" isn't so mandatory?

TLDR: Weathercrafting talent tree is having the same issues as the animal talents, prior to fixing - too much talents to invest into, with few effects / benefits in between each. They probably need to be mixed together a bit, or otherwise improved.


Last edited by Zarhon on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:42 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  A1C Bronymous on Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:59 pm

@Magecraft: I'm still using IW in my game, because Magecraft is ridiculous. Its overcomplicated for anyone who isn't a math major and its based on very limiting ideas, e.g. the "Level 15 specialization". It's not user friendly, for DM or player, and especially for new players (which if you recall was the reason of some recently debated changes).

Doing that, and doing the same with Weather Crafting, means taking certain things out of the hands of the DM to decide, and instead forcing them to do calculations. I can trust myself not to let my players break my game, and to not stifle them, I don't need a chart and a held hand (not all the time, anyway). It also goes back on the reason why Genetic Engineering became a thing- which was, any player can be anything and do anything. But with stuff like Magecraft, you are limiting people by class (instead of race), saying only really magy mages can do actual mage stuff, and encourages min-maxing and the like. And in some cases, I wouldn't even have a problem with that- have the system follow show canon more, and let DMs decide where to deviate- but it goes against your own reasons for having stuff as they are.

Magecraft, and a similarly redone Weather Crafting, belong in the same system as Legacy racials, because otherwise you're trying to have it both ways. Or at the very least, you're doing the classic MMO ignorance of saying "hey, there are no classes, do whatever- but if you don't specialize into what essentially is your class, you're going to have a bad time".

Edit: Ninja'd
ADDENDUM: There is atmosphere inside, its just fabricated and altered through non natural means. Just because its storming outside doesn't mean you can't make it snow inside. It shouldn't not work indoors.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:32 pm

In response to Zarhon's post: Ten seconds flat I currently feel is fine (as I'm more or less ok with the default weather-crafting time). Thundercrash is also more or less fine in my view. The Sky's The Limit and Lightning Rod I feel shouldn't exist. They becomes just insane when you combine them with Freaky Knowledge and are on their own still just an unfair advantage nobody else doing any other kind of thing can get. Heavy Weather really is just too weak and I feel the same about Cloudsculpting. You really only take Cloudsculpting for flavor reasons or because you're taking unofficial talents that list it as a prerequisite.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  SparkImpulse on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:35 pm

Bronymous wrote:ADDENDUM: There is atmosphere inside, its just fabricated and altered through non natural means. Just because its storming outside doesn't mean you can't make it snow inside. It shouldn't not work indoors.

But, the "atmosphere" is much, much smaller. If in a game I ran, a player tried to weather-craft snow out of the cold air in the freezer ... I'd give him a hooful. At most.

If they want to create a rain cloud to cool off the party bully ... and it's summer and/or there's just no wet, dark air to work with ... I'd probably just say it fails, or was really skinny and just sorta got the grump damper and grumpier.

Now, if they went outside, flew around for the utilities' five minutes, and brought a stormcloud back ... that'd make sense to me. Grump is now soaked. And grumpier, but still.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:39 pm

On the other hand Spark, none of those things would fail if I were the GM (in fact, they wouldn't even require rolls so long as they weren't major changes to the environment). And that's fine. Your players can argue their reasons with you and you're free to make things easier or harder in your games. It's not great when the system tells us how hard it should be though because it gets in the way of players and GMs coming to agreements that work for their games. (Yes, you can as a GM just ignore things that are in the rules but, people are way less inclined to do that if there is a chart telling them how to think so that they don't have to. Even if it totally fails to work for their game, people will often rely on a chart.)
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:46 pm

I actually do have an idea for reworking 10 Seconds Flat.  Change it from At Will to a number per day (5?) then pull it out of the Weather Crafting chain, allowing it to be used on everything with a preparation time.

While I agree with the modifiers for Magecraft (more prep time means it's easier feels obvious), I think a lot of the actual example DCs feel off.  Probably another discussion for after this one.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:47 pm

Some structure does need to be provided for new DMs that feel lost. It's a lesser evil in general to have some structure that experienced DMs can ignore than to have no structure and leave inexperienced DMs in the dark. In general, I find it best to provide structure with a clear comment that it can be ignored at the DM's discretion. Of course, some structure is sometimes required just to make sure something is balanced too. That was a problem with Witchcraft before, it was ludicrously overpowered in some games and it was extremely underpowered in other games - because DMs implemented it wildly differently from one another. It's fine if a DM wants to nerf or buff a talent for their personal game, but having a middle-ground to know where the mid-point of balance is can help a lot.

EDIT - Sadly, I've got a lot of work to do. I look forward to reading the discussion later.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Magecraft is fine. It helps people understand the boundaries of what their character can and can't do, and gives the GM's a good base line.

Its just needs to be emphaized the the DC's and the modifiers are only GUIDES AND RECOMMENDATIONS. NOT. FACT.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:57 pm

Exactly. Quick thing before I sign off. This is currently the official comment on the magecraft sample DCs, included in the Sorcerer Supreme document.

Note to DMs

The following are some sample DCs for magical feats balanced around what we expect from an arcane specialist. However, these are just our ideas of what is balanced in the system. If you want your world’s magic to work differently, if perhaps certain kinds of magic are a lot easier than others or you just want magical might to be a lot more accessible or a lot less accessible to the mages among us - feel free to play with these numbers however you like. It’s your world.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:31 pm

Zamuel, that's a really bad idea for a few reasons. 1) Some talents are insane in they can be used in ten seconds (especially anything that normally required an hour). 2) It doesn't make sense for weather-crafters not to be able to do anything quickly if they're practiced at it.

I don't really see why you guys want to change it.

I'm just gonna disagree with Stair's appraisal of what does and doesn't need charts. Also, you can tell people they are free to ignore a chart but, it doesn't mean they will. People are quite often lazy and overly trusting in such things.
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