Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Not sure if this should be here or elsewhere but I'm wondering if the standalone links for the Player's Handbook and Ponyhandler's Guide should be unstickied since we now have the Official Supplements in One Easy Location thread.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:48 pm

Good point. Fixed.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:12 pm

Kindulas wrote:the term "pip" has been replaced by the more intuitive "energy"
How Everyone Is Feeling About This Change:

The logic behind the change makes sense, yes, but where's the heart?

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:14 pm

Seriously, that's just pointless and annoying. Don't change terminology around unless there's a good reason to.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:18 pm

Althetics to Brawn... Had some logic behind it... But really... What was the point in changing pips to energy? Making it easier to newbies? If so, then you are losing the nice feeling of having our own system that does things differently. And is pony... This change... You might as well just quit Horse-Sense being it's thing and fully change it to Sense... So we get farther and farther away form pony... And remove all the pony.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:23 pm

Actually Horse-Sense to just Sense I'd approve of. We have plenty of non-pony characters at this point. And whenever being discussed nobody actually says the Horse part.

Changing pips to energy does a number of negative things. First, it changes terminology for no particular reason. Second, it changes it to something less distinct and more easily confused with flavor instead of a clearly mechanical term. Third, it's longer and will end up getting abbreviated to something weird like EN which will then be confused with the abbreviation for any combat talents that have two words starting with those letters or completely confuse people who just have no idea what that could mean at all.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:31 pm

And when I stop thinking of all my hate for this latest dumb pointless change... Yeah, droping the Horse from Horse-Sense, kinda does make logics.

Still more hate it for the whole Pips felt like something only this game system had... It was something new... Something we owned... So just changing it to "energy" just... Is boring and pointless. And normally I'm one open to changes for this system.
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only intuitive interface is the nipple ... everything after that is learned.

Post  SparkImpulse on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:47 pm

Pips are a unit ... singular, pip. Energy is a substance, like butter. You don't normally count them one by one.

I could be okay about a name change ... though I personally feel it's unnecessary ... but the name should imply they're counted by number, not by volume (five butter sounds strange ... five energy is equally strange ... five units of butter could be fine ... except for the rather serious problem that, honestly, it's just too many syllables.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:19 pm

Spark makes a good point. If we refer to Syphon Life giving you plus one energy it just sounds like we don't have a completely solid grasp on the english language and the concept of energy. Even worse if you say plus two energies. Absolutely horrible if it comes out as minus three energys. (Which would be the technically correct way as "energy" would be a unit of measurement.)
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  A1C Bronymous on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:35 pm

Shit, I still call athletics Brawn half the time. I don't know why we're changing it, but I don't plan on saying it differently. Everyone on here knows they're pips, and if new kids show up, they'll learn quick what we're talking about (or we can tease and ostracize them for being new more easily).

Is there a specific reason why PiPs as a term is now obsolete and needs to change?
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:28 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Making it easier to newbies? If so, then you are losing the nice feeling of having our own system that does things differently

Making things less intuitive and including more nonsense words is just silly. As for this myth that we're somehow the only game that's used the term 'pips' and that makes us special - no we aren't. We got the term from Wizard 101 and Pokemon - and these are just the ones we know of. We directly lifted the term from these games - particularly Wizard 101.

The system is special because of how newbie-friendly it is and because of things like our Special Moves, lack of attack rolls, no classes, separation between RP and Combat and more. It's not special because we use a silly phonetic pronunciation of PP (which stands for power points).

Xel Unknown wrote:Althetics to Brawn... Had some logic behind it... But really... What was the point in changing pips to energy?

People complained about that too, and frankly that change is less important than this change. Calling 'stunts' athletics was a minor improvement. Changing a completely fake term we stole from Wizard 101 to the intuitive 'energy' that players immediately understand is pure upside.

Xel Unknown wrote:And is pony... This change... You might as well just quit Horse-Sense being it's thing and fully change it to Sense... So we get farther and farther away form pony... And remove all the pony.

Pips have nothing to do with ponies.



Feel free to keep calling them pips guys, no one's stopping you. However, the system is built to be accessible and intuitive. If 'special' was the goal - let's change 'HP' to a fake word like 'TIKS' and make the game more special. But being weird and different for the sake of being weird and different isn't good. I'm sure most people don't think changing the term for HP to 'TIKS' is a good idea.


It's pretty clear that people are just resistant to have a core piece of game terminology change in the handbooks. I get why it's weird, it's unsettling because we've all gotten used to saying pips. However, if we'd called it Energy from the start - I don't think anyone would be complaining. This change doesn't affect anyone's actual gameplay and all existing gamers can keep saying pips. It doesn't affect you. However, it does make combat more intuitive for new players and easier to grok. For that reason, this change is going through.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:38 pm

Uh.... I'm pretty sure Spark and I have said stuff that makes it a mystery how you think we wouldn't have complained about the term to begin with. You can call pips unintuitive and nonsense but, that does not compare to the unintuitive nonsense that is energys or energies as a unit of measurement. If you're going to dismiss perfectly valid concerns because "we're doing whatever we want!" logic, fine. But, don't claim we didn't have valid points while you do so.

I hereby propose that we all now refer to energy(s/ies) as pony(s/ies) in protest. This will clearly have more to do with the system, make just as much sense as energy(s/ies) (because no matter what, it's just a term for a mechanic), and will sound less stupid when we say it. I'd prefer pips but, if we're going to use things that "aren't nonsense" we might as well go with the most amusing nonsensical option. Of we could just not change official things without an actually good reason. Especially not when what we're changing it to is worse in everyone's opinion aside from those making the change.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:41 pm

Gain 3 energy is just as sensible as gain 3 mana, gain 3 life or any number of other successful terms in games. It's easy to understand than pips and the grammar is forgivable. While it may not be grammatically perfect, it's still much easier to understand as a concept than pips, more intuitive and more accessible. If you want to protest it Ramsus though, feel free.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:43 pm

How did you come to the conclusion that it's easier to understand? Out of all the "how does this system function?" questions I've seen from new players, not one of them is "what does pips mean?"
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:47 pm

Perosnally I'm not buying that "Energy" is more intuitive as you think it is... And while I will admit that yes, just term-change is something everyone hates in and of itself. If we are going to do such a name-change. Just "Energy" isn't the best to work with. It seems lacking... Maybe Energy Points or something. Maybe Energy System Points or ESP... Just calling the term that one's cobmat numbers that are gained and spent on talents becuase of the reson that Spark brought up:

SparkImpulse wrote:Pips are a unit ... singular, pip. Energy is a substance, like butter. You don't normally count them one by one.

I could be okay about a name change ... though I personally feel it's unnecessary ... but the name should imply they're counted by number, not by volume (five butter sounds strange ... five energy is equally strange ... five units of butter could be fine ... except for the rather serious problem that, honestly, it's just too many syllables.
While I am still upset over just the loss of the term Pips for our Unit of Combat Points (another possible term that'd work)... The fact that the replacement is "Energy" seems very lacking in more ways then one. And to a degree even less intuitive as a whole.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:51 pm

Well.... we don't want to use ESP since that's already a widely recognized term. Also, even if it were just EP, you replaced PiPs with EP. At that point it's just random letters, why change it?
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:40 am

The terminology's already been playtested extensively with new players and casuals find it easier to understand. I've had to answer lots of questions about what pips are, why they're called pips and what they stand for too prior to this. Trust me, none of us would make such a basic terminology change or risk irritating established players if we didn't have a lot to back it up with.

As for why that is, it's because "this is how much energy you have" uses words that mean what they sound like. People know what running out of energy is like in real life. No one has a clue what the heck 'pips' are, unless they're thinking of fruit seeds or spots on a die - which are both counterproductive.

Energy is simply quicker to grok. You can call them Energy Pips if you like, or just pips, but the handbooks will now reference energy.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  A1C Bronymous on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:17 am

Did you congrokder that the people constantly asking about what pips are were being intentionally difficult? Because the concept of "the numbers next to the talents are pips. You need pips to do certain things, and certain other things give you those pips" shouldn't be too hard to groksp assuming you've been alive for half a decade. Its overly simple, as on counting and attribution of numbers are some of the first things we learn as children. Hell, I still don't even know what PiP stands for, but that doesn't mean it's any harder to undergrok, or that it makes the game harder to play. We all managed to learn on it, and not a single question on these forums is "what are pips and what do we need them for".

Quit saying grok.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:23 am

You know that 'grok' is a term used often in game design, right? I linked the definition above.

If you had little difficulty understanding what pips were and what they represent (the energy, stamina, magical power you have to use talents, and running out of pips means running out of energy) then it'll be even easier when using something that's already a neutral and intuitive name.

This is an extremely small change that will make the system marginally more intuitive and more accessible while barely inconveniencing anyone. I have a hunch that, like when the card borders were changed in Magic the Gathering, familiarity will eventually set in and people won't mind it much anymore. Except this is even easier, because you can just keep calling them 'pips' - in MTG you were stuck with the new card borders if you didn't like them.


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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:39 am

My problem with the concept of "intuitiveness" is a simple question...is it?  One of the problems MMOs have is bringing in newer players without losing the old and while not an MMO, this change seems to be making that kind of mistake.  This sort of feels like the wrong kind of change in that it sort of shakes things up for those already here to limited newcomer benefit.  Different systems use different terminology for the subsystem used to fuel attacks, be it MP, mana, energy or anything else so it seems like something newer players would pick up if told what it did.  While I had heard of pips before, I didn't know that was just a pronunciation for PP.  With that knowledge, I propose a different change:  Update references of pips/energy to "power points" using their official system abbreviation as "PP"

In my eyes it does several things:

  • Makes things similar to other systems for the sake of new players as the previous change had in mind
  • Feels less like an abrupt change to those already there
  • Promotes synergy with the abbreviation "HP" used for health. Subsequently...
  • Mirrors other RPGs that have ##HP/##PP (or ##MP) notation
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  thematthew on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:41 am

Also, if some people continue referring to it as pips, it will actually cause the questions of "what is a pip?" in games involving new players and old players. Thus causing the non-existent problem you were so keen on solving.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:47 am

ZamuelNow wrote:My problem with the concept of "intuitiveness" is a simple question...is it?  One of the problems MMOs have is bringing in newer players without losing the old and while not an MMO, this change seems to be making that kind of mistake.  This sort of feels like the wrong kind of change in that it sort of shakes things up for those already here to limited newcomer benefit.  Different systems use different terminology for the subsystem used to fuel attacks, be it MP, mana, energy or anything else so it seems like something newer players would pick up if told what it did.  While I had heard of pips before, I didn't know that was just a pronunciation for PP.  With that knowledge, I propose a different change:  Update references of pips/energy to "power points" using their official system abbreviation as "PP"

In my eyes it does several things:

  • Makes things similar to other systems for the sake of new players as the previous change had in mind
  • Feels less like an abrupt change to those already there
  • Promotes synergy with the abbreviation "HP" used for health. Subsequently...
  • Mirrors other RPGs that have ##HP/##PP (or ##MP) notation

thematthew wrote:Also, if some people continue referring to it as pips, it will actually cause the questions of "what is a pip?" in games involving new players and old players.  Thus causing the non-existent problem you were so keen on solving.
I support and thank both of these comments. They both explains a good deal of my own outrage at this change outside of the whole "change in term is bad" undercurrent thoughts.
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:47 am

If you think it's non-existent, then you needn't worry about it. If it *is* a problem, then we're reducing it. Win/win.

As all change, especially cosmetic changes like this, are usually greeted with initial resistance from established players - we're going to give this a few months at least for people to get more acclimated to the term. Then we can see how much of the initial 'ick' factor is reflex. Hopefully it'll work out how we think. If not, then we can always change it back.

As it won't affect any established groups (you can still call it pips if you like) and new players won't notice the difference - it shouldn't be a major inconvenience either way. Definitely not worth sweating over.

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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:51 am

There is the "ick" factor... But I honestly, feel like just quiting this game as a whole over this issue. Dispite it being so minor. Becuase it just is so random and oddball. And just not the wisest of moves done right. And you really need to stop only reading what you want to read Dan. GIVE RETORTS to the other logical discorse that's happening. Matthew's point is that this is more likely to MAKE problems then solve any...
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Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

Post  Philadelphus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:55 am

Well, if it's to make the system easier for new players I suppose I can get behind it. That newbie-friendliness is definitely one of the good things about this system. I've ended up liking or at least accepting pretty much all of the other changes to the system I was initially against, so... (And to be clear, a change in a variable name bothers me a whole lot less than the Genetic Engineering switch did [which I now like, for the record].)

I was going to complain about the grammar until I realized I have no problem saying thing like "he loses 15 HP" or "you gain 100 XP," so I can probably get used to saying "I gain 3 energy." Smile

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