Unarmed Combat

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Unarmed Combat

Post  A1C Bronymous on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:30 am

This is all stuff I was planning on posting to the suggestion thread, but it will take weeks to submit them all, so I'm posting them here so I don't forget about them. They are Bareknuckle/Unarmed/MMA/Fighting Game themed. I guess feedback would be ok, especially if anything I have has already been done. As always, me am balance dumb, so the Pip costs are more placeholders than anything.

Bare-Hooved- Trait
If you have no Weapon equipped, your Standard Attacks deal an extra 2 damage, and once per battle, you may use the following Combat Talent:
[-3] Left, left, Right- Reaction Attack
Trigger: You are targeted by an enemy.
Effect: Deal 3d8 damage to that enemy.

Bare-Chested- Trait
You may equip an additional Trinket instead of Armor. If you have no Armor equipped, thrice per battle, you may use the following Combat Talent:
[-1] Agile and Slippery- Interrupt Utility
Trigger: You are targeted by an enemy.
Effect: Flip a Coin. If heads, you are unaffected.

[-3] Sick Grab Breaks- Interrupt Utility
Trigger: An enemy would inflict a status effect on you.
Effect: You are unaffected.

[-5] Bide- Standard Utility
You have resist 3 and vulnerability 3 until the end of your third turn after activating this effect. At the end of that turn, inflict damage equal to the amount of damage you took during those three turns x2 to target enemy.

[-1] Cheap Shot- Reaction Attack
Trigger: You roll initiative
Effect: Do 1d8 damage to target enemy.

[+1] Sucker Punch- Standard Attack
Choose One:
Deal 1d12+3 damage to an enemy who has been Challenged by an ally.
Deal 3d4 damage to an enemy that is suffering from a status effect.

[-3] C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER- Interrupt Attack
Trigger: An enemy would take a second Action during the same round.
Effect: Deal 1d6 damage to that enemy, and the action does not activate.

[-1] Launcher- Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 damage to target enemy, and that enemy suffers vulnerability 2 to your attacks until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Juggle- Standard Attack
Trigger: You used the “Launcher” Combat Talent last turn.
Effect: For every 2 damage dealt by “Launcher” to target enemy, deal 2 piercing damage to that enemy.


Last edited by Bronymous on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:51 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Unarmed Combat

Post  Zarhon on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:31 am

Feedback!

"Bare-Hooved" seems like a pretty good option with its ability, though the extra 2 damage might be a bit too strong for a single trait, especially if paired with other such traits (which you can get via trinkets, in place of a weapon).

"Bare-Chested" pretty much trumps its equivalent of "Displacer armor" in almost every aspect, except pip cost (negligible) and number of uses (three is probably more than enough for a fight, most likely). And it being a trait, you can get it easily for 2k gold at level in place of a trinket - compare that to the cost of the displacer armor. There's also no clarification whether the armor is outright disabled for use once you get the trait, or whether you can still have armor (along with the ability granted by the trait, meaning you can have the 3/day ability AND displacer armor simultaneously, which due to displacer armor working off a "tails" coin toss, makes you practically immune to anything single target!) but "just" lose out on the trinket slot. TLDR - It's pretty much a better version of Displacer Armor, that's available from level 1.

"Sick-Grab Breaks" seems decent - in fact, It might be a bit too costly (you can do a stun interrupt or damage-redirect for the same price), though that depends on the severity of the status effect, I suppose.

"Bide" is needlessly complicated and hard to keep track of, and is bound to lead to confusion on how much damage it deals (why multiply with 1.5?). Not to mention, it takes three whole turns to pull off at a high cost, meaning the fight might end before anything happens.

"Cheap Shot" is okay, though isn't there an equivalent of such an ability already, that you can get for items that's plain stronger?

"Sucker Punch" can't do anything without a status effect/challenge active first and a built oriented around just that. Not a good choice for a pip booster.

"Combo Breaker" is a bit useless - it only works if an enemy has standard AND minor action abilities (rather than multiple turns per round, doing just a single action) and costs quite a bit. It also doesn't prevent the action from just happening a turn later.

I'm not sure how the balance works, but I'm pretty sure "Launcher" is too powerful for its cost - compare it with "Shatter Armor", "Go For The Eyes!", and particularly "Armor Pierce" (same pip gain, but less/non-crit damage and less vuln).

"Juggle" is rather interesting idea - another option for coin-tossers. Though it seems odd it can only work with just "Launcher" (of course, it would be hard to balance if it was open to all talents...). It also appears a bit ineffective and unreliable - you need to spend another standard action, it relies on the "Launcher" rolling high enough to do decent damage, AND you need to win coin tosses for every 2 damage. Good in theory, but finicky in execution and luck-reliant.
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Re: Unarmed Combat

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:32 pm

I first must say I LOVE a good deal of the mechanics for these talents/traits. Just not so sure of how you've built them as being balanced nor even really all that great looking. But first I'll go over all the mechanics you thought up here to add.

Trait Mechanics Ideas: (what I see from your suggestion list)
  • Traits that force the non-use of an Item type: (IE: "If you have no Weapon equipped" line in Bare-Hooved) This is an awesome idea for a trait to factor in non-use of a type of item giving options to people who'd not want or need to use a weapon/armor/trinket for one's combat build. I'd personally say such effects should more be built to be more passive then the very active talents you had given your traits. Also, as Zarhon said, your armor one is basically an overall upgraded version of the Displacer Armor, which it shouldn't at all. The only con of that trait is that it's talent is 3/battle... While it was clearly intended to be an anti-armor trait like how the first trait is, it doesn't work that way given that it's giving players an option to trade one's armor slot to be used as an extra trinket slot. Which overall is more a pro then a con for the trait. I'd suggest rewording for both to make it clear that you can't use a weapon or armor with those traits, instead of it being an option.
  • Dealing +X Damage for damage type: (IE: "your Standard Attacks deal an extra 2 damage." part in Bare-Hooved) Another really great idea Bronyomous, really, just plain top notch. But would need some extra mehcanics work to make sure it can't be given to a mult-attack talent such as Chain Lightning, Wild Lightning, Thunderstorm, or Crescendo. Other then that, I really like this idea to allow bonus damage for both AoE Attacks and Single Target Attacks that'd give some nice options to people who wanta use both types of talents. But might be worth building around the talent... Instend of being an add on to a talent that gives a talent as well.


Talent Mechanics Ideas: (going to go over these one by one)
  • Sick Grab Breaks- Not a bad idea for a talent... But the pip cost is a bit too high for it's effects. I'd put it at -2 or -3 myself. Other then that great talent. Maybe add a coin flip to the thing... Where both heads and tails outcomes does something.
  • Bide- I enjoy the idea of a delayed attack... But Bide just takes too long to be worthwhile and is a bit too complex. I'd suggest have it more work like a self-stun talent where the start of your next turn, you do some type of super-attack. Or make it a like three tiered attack that can charge up to three rounds. And having it more be a flat bonus for all the damage you take. Also having it trigger if you get KOed... Then it'd be a really nice talent.
  • Cheap Shot- This talent is a lovely idea, only thing I'd suggest is turn it form "Deal 1d4 damage to target enemy" to "Target Enemy loses 1d4 HP", this way the talent always gets a good use out of it. Even if the enemy has resistance. Might be worth upgrading to a d6... But that might make it a tad OP.
  • Sucker Punch- I'd say this one is kinda meh as is. Would be better as a basically a "Challanged" version of Noxious Mixture, but even then, it'll still be kinda meh. Though it could be worth trying... Maybe have it be able to do deal some type of Challange of it's own for a target enemy?
  • C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER- Could use more work... It's basical a very weak version of Stunning Heron's Palm that triggers under an enemy doing more then one talent a turn.
  • Launcher/Juggle- A good start of a two part talent combo thing... But needs more work. It's a two turn attack duo that can deal at most 30 total damage, but that'd need a lucky d10 crit and 5 heads on coin flips. (10 damage turn one, then you got five attacks turn two that if you are lucky and the enemy has no resist would deal 4 damage each totals to 30. But that'd be so rare an event that you'd likely never get such a thing.) Needs a bit more higher odds of damage and some better damage output range for a Two-Turn self-combo in my opinion. Also I'd totally merge them into one attack akin to those "Craft" talents.
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Re: Unarmed Combat

Post  A1C Bronymous on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:35 pm

Zarhon wrote:"Bare-Hooved" seems like a pretty good option with its ability, though the extra 2 damage might be a bit too strong for a single trait, especially if paired with other such traits (which you can get via trinkets, in place of a weapon).

Ok, but keep in mind that unlike bare chested, bare hooved doesn't let you equip an extra trinket.

"Bare-Chested" pretty much trumps its equivalent of "Displacer armor" in almost every aspect, except pip cost (negligible) and number of uses (three is probably more than enough for a fight, most likely). And it being a trait, you can get it easily for 2k gold at level in place of a trinket - compare that to the cost of the displacer armor. There's also no clarification whether the armor is outright disabled for use once you get the trait, or whether you can still have armor (along with the ability granted by the trait, meaning you can have the 3/day ability AND displacer armor simultaneously, which due to displacer armor working off a "tails" coin toss, makes you practically immune to anything single target!) but "just" lose out on the trinket slot. TLDR - It's pretty much a better version of Displacer Armor, that's available from level 1.

This one was the hardest for me to come up with something that made sense, was useful, and hadn't already been done. Clarified, though, you probably would not get the 3/day if you are wearing armor, just like bare hooved. And a level 2 trait being better than an armor that you can have at level 1 makes sense to me.

"Sick-Grab Breaks" seems decent - in fact, It might be a bit too costly (you can do a stun interrupt or damage-redirect for the same price), though that depends on the severity of the status effect, I suppose.

Remember my disclaimer, pip costs are basically placeholders. I figured it might be that high since its a 100% chance of not getting hit with the effect.

"Bide" is needlessly complicated and hard to keep track of, and is bound to lead to confusion on how much damage it deals (why multiply with 1.5?). Not to mention, it takes three whole turns to pull off at a high cost, meaning the fight might end before anything happens.

I think a lot of good combos rely on several turns worth of preparing, and run the risk of the fight ending before they happen. Multiplied with 1.5 because 2 seemed too powerful at first. Also, there are a number of ways to use this on turn one, making the fight only need to last to turn 4. Just pair it with something that boosts initiative, so you don't have to let everyone else to all the work first.

"Cheap Shot" is okay, though isn't there an equivalent of such an ability already, that you can get for items that's plain stronger?

Don't know, didn't check. Take both, go nuts.

"Sucker Punch" can't do anything without a status effect/challenge active first and a built oriented around just that. Not a good choice for a pip booster.

There is at least one other move out there that requires an enemy (or enemies) to be suffering from a save ends. It happens A LOT, and this one isn't even Save Ends. Maybe not the Challenge, but if you coordinate with your party tank Im sure it can happen plenty regularly.

"Combo Breaker" is a bit useless - it only works if an enemy has standard AND minor action abilities (rather than multiple turns per round, doing just a single action) and costs quite a bit. It also doesn't prevent the action from just happening a turn later.

Cost is whatever. It probably should be "second action this round", though I've met a lot of enemies that use standard and minors. And if it could prevent the enemy from taking the action the next chance he got, it would essentially be "stun until the end of his next turn", which I think would cost more (or the same, but not less).

I'm not sure how the balance works, but I'm pretty sure "Launcher" is too powerful for its cost - compare it with "Shatter Armor", "Go For The Eyes!", and particularly "Armor Pierce" (same pip gain, but less/non-crit damage and less vuln).

"Cost"

"Juggle" is rather interesting idea - another option for coin-tossers. Though it seems odd it can only work with just "Launcher" (of course, it would be hard to balance if it was open to all talents...). It also appears a bit ineffective and unreliable - you need to spend another standard action, it relies on the "Launcher" rolling high enough to do decent damage, AND you need to win coin tosses for every 2 damage. Good in theory, but finicky in execution and luck-reliant.

Just like a good juggle. I found that in order to make it useful, I need to keep its cost (again, "cost") down, and to do that, I made it more unreliable. I had experimented with it being an immediate reaction, with it just being a base damage, with the damage going through every time, they all seemed to make it really powerful. It's kind of a "go big or go home" kind of combo, and if the Launcher hit was so low that you don't think the juggle is worth it, then you don't have to activate it, and you can put those pips toward something else.
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Re: Unarmed Combat

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:41 pm

The only intinitive weapon is the following:

Treasure Trove wrote:Chaos-Bound Blade - 3000 Gold
Weapon
Once per battle, you may use the following combat talent.

[0] Chaos Strike - Reaction [1/battle]
Trigger - You roll initiative.
Effect - Two random enemies each suffer 6 ongoing damage (save ends).

Personally I'd enjoy using the Cheap Shot a lot more then Chaos Strike. Also there was no way to use both for the same combat.
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Re: Unarmed Combat

Post  A1C Bronymous on Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:57 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:Trait Mechanics Ideas: (what I see from your suggestion list)

  • Traits that force the non-use of an Item type: (IE: "If you have no Weapon equipped" line in Bare-Hooved) This is an awesome idea for a trait to factor in non-use of a type of item giving options to people who'd not want or need to use a weapon/armor/trinket for one's combat build. I'd personally say such effects should more be built to be more passive then the very active talents you had given your traits. Also, as Zarhon said, your armor one is basically an overall upgraded version of the Displacer Armor, which it shouldn't at all. The only con of that trait is that it's talent is 3/battle... While it was clearly intended to be an anti-armor trait like how the first trait is, it doesn't work that way given that it's giving players an option to trade one's armor slot to be used as an extra trinket slot. Which overall is more a pro then a con for the trait. I'd suggest rewording for both to make it clear that you can't use a weapon or armor with those traits, instead of it being an option.
  • Dealing +X Damage for damage type: (IE: "your Standard Attacks deal an extra 2 damage." part in Bare-Hooved)  Another really great idea Bronyomous, really, just plain top notch. But would need some extra mehcanics work to make sure it can't be given to a mult-attack talent such as Chain Lightning, Wild Lightning, Thunderstorm, or Crescendo. Other then that, I really like this idea to allow bonus damage for both AoE Attacks and Single Target Attacks that'd give some nice options to people who wanta use both types of talents. But might be worth building around the talent... Instend of being an add on to a talent that gives a talent as well.


Well they definitely are meant to be "cannot use the item and the trait", so I'll fix that.
I was concerned with Crescendo and the like, but I couldn't think of how to write it in. I'll try and fix it.

Please read what I have above in regards to everything, because some of it overlaps. I'll continue responding here too.


Sick Grab Breaks- Not a bad idea for a talent... But the pip cost is a bit too high for it's effects. I'd put it at -2 or -3 myself. Other then that great talent. Maybe add a coin flip to the thing... Where both heads and tails outcomes does something.

Then cost can go down, not a problem. But no coin flip, that's not what I'm going for here.



Bide- I enjoy the idea of a delayed attack... But Bide just takes too long to be worthwhile and is a bit too complex. I'd suggest have it more work like a self-stun talent where the start of your next turn, you do some type of super-attack. Or make it a like three tiered attack that can charge up to three rounds. And having it more be a flat bonus for all the damage you take. Also having it trigger if you get KOed... Then it'd be a really nice talent.

It could be self stun for those turns- I was meaning to allow the player to be able to use them to keep himself from getting ko'd so he can use it though. Being Ko'd when the attack would go off is definitely supposed to stop it (whereas being stunned and dazed would not).

Cheap Shot- This talent is a lovely idea, only thing I'd suggest is turn it form "Deal 1d4 damage to target enemy" to "Target Enemy loses 1d4 HP", this way the talent always gets a good use out of it. Even if the enemy has resistance. Might be worth upgrading to a d6... But that might make it a tad OP.

Like above, its not supposed to Stun. They can use the thing on the very next turn, this is just a holdout. I am also going to change it to second action per round, so it can work on a second turn, or on a reaction interrupt. It also has the advantage of not requiring damage be dealt to trigger.

Launcher/Juggle- A good start of a two part talent combo thing... But needs more work. It's a two turn attack duo that can deal at most 30 total damage, but that'd need a lucky d10 crit and 5 heads on coin flips. (10 damage turn one, then you got five attacks turn two that if you are lucky and the enemy has no resist would deal 4 damage each totals to 30. But that'd be so rare an event that you'd likely never get such a thing.) Needs a bit more higher odds of damage and some better damage output range for a Two-Turn self-combo in my opinion. Also I'd totally merge them into one attack akin to those "Craft" talents.

Well since apparently I was too safe with it, how about for every 2 damage dealt, deal 2 piercing damage on the second turn? Guaranteed damage, and again, "go big or go home".

EDIT: That's true, cant trigger two things off the same thing. So Cheap Shot or Chaos Blade.
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