Let's talk about Dazed

Go down

Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Kindulas on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:37 pm

So here's the deal. Looking at our numbers, Dazed hasn't been balanced for correctly. The fact is, it gives Vuln 2, which means when applied to a single target it can usually be worth 6-10 damage or more, not counting the action stopping. This was added because dazed was based on 4e, which caused a creature to grant combat advantage, which at that time was a +2 to attack rolls. CA was something we added in board, and we usually change it to vuln 2 in skype, since CA is usually attained by positioning.

But, Dazed is undervalued because of it, now that we're looking more closely at numbers. However, there are multiple ways to fix this problem:
1) Dazed stays the same, and low cost moves that give dazed get nerfed (Family Recipie and You Will Die won't be, considering they give their own vuln anyway)
2) The vuln goes down to vuln 1, and the nerfs are much less extreme, but still needed in some cases
3) The vuln gets cut, and Dazed becomes a not-so-powerful way of restricting enemy reactions, and stuff doesn't have to be nerfed so much, if at all.

Things that are too powerful with Dazed as is:

[-3] Explosive Arrow - Standard Attack
Deal 1d8 damage to target creature. At the beginning of that creature’s next turn, it and all creatures adjacent to it take 1d10 damage and are dazed (save ends).
^ would at least need to not be (save ends)

[-1] Force Bolt - Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 damage to target creature and that creature is dazed until the end of its next turn.

[-7] Hammer of Thunder - Minor Utility
You conjure a Thunder Hammer in your hands.
You can dismiss the Thunder Hammer as a free action. While you are wielding a Thunder Hammer, you cannot use your other combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.


  • [+1] Ringing Blow - Standard Attack
    Deal 1d12 damage to target creature, and that creature is dazed until the end of your next turn.
    ^More powerful than the -1 equivalent above


[-2] Below the Belt - Reaction Utility
Trigger - You deal 5 or more damage to a creature
Effect - That creature is dazed until the end of your next turn.
^If this is the equivalent of a +1 standard... not super-crazy op like Ringing Blow, but still a tad much. Probably wouldn't be touched under the Vuln 1 change.

I understand Daze can be a good way of getting the Vuln for Sneak Attack and things, so I'm leaning toward option 2 myself
avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Xel Unknown on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:43 pm

Mostly dislike the idea as a whole of this nerf... But I think I'd learn to live with the vul 1 option.
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:57 pm

I think you should cut the vuln out of dazed as vuln is already its own mechanic. Then you can just add in the appropriate amount of vuln to talents that would grant it.

Edit: I think people are going to want to keep the save ends on Explosive Arrow, so with that one you may want to lower the vuln to 1?
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 34
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  tygerburningbright on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:09 pm

Option 2 seem rather reasonable but what Ramsus proposed while it would require more work would likely be the best option.
avatar
tygerburningbright
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 3141
Join date : 2012-07-19
Location : USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Philadelphus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:06 am

I'm currently playing a character whose combat talents are set up to abuse Explosive Arrow, and I'm only interested in the (AoE) Dazed for the 2 Vulnerability (since we have yet to encounter a monster whom Dazing would really inconvenience). From a simplicity and elegance standpoint, it might be the best idea to remove the Vuln from Dazed entirely as Ramsus proposed, and add it back manually (specifically labeled as Vuln) to combat talents that inflict Dazed where appropriate.

On the topic of Explosive Arrow, having any Vuln it inflicts go from (save ends) to "the end of the creature's next turn" would be fine by me. That's almost better in a way, because I'd no longer have to worry about it saving against the Vuln before I can hit it with Exploit Weakness when my turn rolls around.

_________________
Links to all the official sourcebooks in one place.
Optional Talent Specialization for your characters.
avatar
Philadelphus
Designer
Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 734
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 29
Location : Hilo, Hawai‘i

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  A1C Bronymous on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:27 am

In a lot of cases, Daze can be more crippling than Stun, as far as combat combos and strategies are concerned. The Vulnerability just seems like an unnecessary factor (and at times, not even a real threat when compared to the limiting effects). I think dropping vulnerability altogether would be fine. As long as the daze still exists as a status effect that can be used in conjunction with others, those who use it in Combos will still get their mileage out of it, and if they're playing off the vuln, then they can switch to something else to keep that up.
avatar
A1C Bronymous
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command

Gender : Male
Posts : 5729
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 27
Location : Columbus, MS

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:41 am

It's very weird that Daze is often better than Stun due to its vuln 2.

_________________
Looking for an artist right now, one that would be excited to work with me and Kindulas in creating a superhero comic. If you're interested, know anyone that might be interested, or just want to give the script for our first issue a read - enjoy the link below.

My Comic Project
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3098
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  A1C Bronymous on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:42 am

Daze is often better than Stun WITHOUT its Vuln 2. The Vuln 2 is just the extra kick while you're down.
avatar
A1C Bronymous
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command
Air Commander, Equestrian Armies Pegasus Corps, Eastern Skies Command

Gender : Male
Posts : 5729
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 27
Location : Columbus, MS

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Ramsus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:01 am

I don't really agree with that assessment myself. *shrug*
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 34
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:34 pm

Bronymous wrote:Daze is often better than Stun WITHOUT its Vuln 2. The Vuln 2 is just the extra kick while you're down.
...but Stun does everything Daze does and more except for the vuln...
avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Ramsus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:47 pm

Bronymous' reasoning is that Dazed screws up your combo where Stunned doesn't. But, this is incorrect. Stunned screws up a lot of the same combos in a worse way (At least you can still do *something* while Dazed and some builds are actually completely unaffected by it. Just not many these days.) and some of them even more severely. There is a chance that being Dazed might put you in a position to not gain a pip you need or something and throw off your five round plan's timing in some way but, Stunned can do that too. If being limited to only one action causes serious problems to the point where it would be better to do nothing.... you can just make the choice to do nothing. Though more likely you'll just want to delay your turn to give someone the opportunity to remove your Dazed condition.
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 34
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Kindulas on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:51 pm

Yeah, having one action is always better than, well, nothing at all
avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Ramsus on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:57 pm

I should also note that Dazed is a somewhat lopsided status effect. In fact, the only one (that's officially anyway). It's rather more damaging to PCs than it usually is to enemies. (Though this depends on the GM, still it is assured useful on the PCs to the extent the GM can see and anywhere between crazy good to completely useless in the hands of PCs with no way for them to know unless they can see the future.)
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 34
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:57 pm

I think it's the different of "Controllable Helplessness" (daze) to "Can't do anything at all but wait" (stun)

Sure, daze allows you to do something on your turn. But you feel more helpless when you can do a minor thing instead of being able to use your full combat build at your turn. Like you go though being able to do something, but you feel restrained wanting to do MORE, but you can't because of daze. With stun you more are just waiting... For when it wears off, which yeah, does mess up combos sometimes, but more in a "can't do this now but needs to wait till later" type of event. Which because of how quickly combat is ment to go, at worst you just had to wait one extra turn before an enemy get's dead. While trying to factor in Daze somehow feels more painful to deal with.
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Kindulas on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:24 am

So, are we in agreement about this then? After all, things will be *more* balanced without vuln, and will make the fewest power changes this way
avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:25 am

I like this.

_________________
Looking for an artist right now, one that would be excited to work with me and Kindulas in creating a superhero comic. If you're interested, know anyone that might be interested, or just want to give the script for our first issue a read - enjoy the link below.

My Comic Project
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3098
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:34 am

I also do like the vul effects on most of those talents as well... I'd suggest at least Ninja Tricks getting to keep doing a 1 vul effect. Becuase enemies getting daze might or might be even DO anything for them. While PCs getting daze it's kinda hard hitting.
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Kindulas on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:55 am

what's Ninja Tricks?
avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:57 am

Oh derp... I mean Below the Belt. a friend of mine uses it with the flavor of it being called "Ninja Tricks" which make me derp there somehow. I blame my avatar.
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Ramsus on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:07 pm

So like.... any progress on this stuff?
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 34
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Kindulas on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:17 pm

Ah yes, this should go into effect pretty soon. Thanks for reminding me.
We're on the cusp of getting Spelltacular ready so what time I've had for this has been put to this week's expansion, but it should be a fairly simple re-balancing for most stuff.
avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Let's talk about Dazed

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum