The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  LoganAura on Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:37 am

Clock, I posted not twenty minutes before you for everyone cool your jets. And that it's not people being trollish/douchey/dicks but the talent itself being useable for EVERYTHING.

I'll let you off with only a non-official warning since you only just joined the conversation, but that's it.

If anyone continues being hostile to anyone else in this thread, I will take official action for disobeying moderation staff, hostility aggression, etc.

_________________
Active Games:
AoH2, where the party is climbing an endless tower. Primarily because I've been sick during campaign days.
Ponysona 4, Where all heck's breaking lose
Saint Trotez: Where Snipe is paranoid and snarked at Snarl.
Satisfying Values (Hiatus): Mic is chasing after a Glitch.


Retired or inactive Games:
Too many to count.
avatar
LoganAura
Administrator
Administrator

Gender : Male
Posts : 2925
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 24
Location : Mass

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Quietkal on Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:21 pm

Okay, let's enumerate the problem with Magecraft before we start suggesting things to fix it. So we actually know what we're supposed to be fixing.

Things I have problems with about Magecraft
1) By min-maxing, Magecraft is able to replicate other utility talents with fairly high success rate. Not sure if this is because of poor choices by DMs or just min-max.
2) Characters with Magecraft are essentially able to make reactionary checks to everything, slowing down the game and adding an automatic luck chance to solving problems, rather than using teamwork.
avatar
Quietkal
Element of Harmony

Gender : Male
Posts : 2059
Join date : 2012-07-25
Location : Occasionally

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Xel Unknown on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:25 pm

Z2 wrote:Magecraft is the 'playground' ability. By flatly saying 'no it can't do this' or, heaven forbid, limiting the daily uses it still attacks the core of the ability. I suppose since I can still tell where this is headed, I'll say this.

DON'T limit its uses, but you can limit its usage. The things listed in the DC section of the sorceror supreme document all seem viable options, but if you really must an example listing of dos and don'ts could give you the peace of mind your taking here...

Do: Deanimate the enemies magitech knight - Don't: try to rewire the nonmagical automaton
Do: Give you and your allies the ability to hover around at steady pace - Don't: expect any sort of helpful fly checks out of the event
Do: Use your mighty HORNLAZOR to slow the encroaching boulder or alter its trajectory - Don't: try to chuck boulders with your brain (manipulate the momentum, don't conjure a lot of physical force)
Do: Cast a spell to undo a standard door lock - Don't: try to crack the safe bigger than you are

...etc.
If I had authorial control (but editorial mandate to still get out the nerf bat) I'd probably do that.



This can prevent arcanists from stomping all over characters specced for other skills even at higher DCs, but if sheer overuse is your problem (because all those dice look messy or something) just add a few penalties for failure. Give magic burnout if you fail, or temporary weakening of other skills immediately following usage, or trying to do vastly different things with Magecraft within a short period can injure you if your unlucky, etc... It will encourage players to be slightly more discerning with it, and use it sparingly. (Mind you, those penalties would have to be balanced, too. We don't want to make the party wizard pass out every time he tries to disenchant an evil tree.)
Now that I've read this a second time over... I'd put my support to this. I think that'd be the easiest way to fix things without needing to nerf anything.
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Caden2112 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:39 pm

[quote="Z2"]Magecraft is the 'playground' ability. By flatly saying 'no it can't do this' or, heaven forbid, limiting the daily uses it still attacks the core of the ability. I suppose since I can still tell where this is headed, I'll say this.

DON'T limit its uses, but you can limit its usage. The things listed in the DC section of the sorceror supreme document all seem viable options, but if you really must an example listing of dos and don'ts could give you the peace of mind your taking here...

Do: Deanimate the enemies magitech knight - Don't: try to rewire the nonmagical automaton
Do: Give you and your allies the ability to hover around at steady pace - Don't: expect any sort of helpful fly checks out of the event
Do: Use your mighty HORNLAZOR to slow the encroaching boulder or alter its trajectory - Don't: try to chuck boulders with your brain (manipulate the momentum, don't conjure a lot of physical force)
Do: Cast a spell to undo a standard door lock - Don't: try to crack the safe bigger than you are

...etc.
If I had authorial control (but editorial mandate to still get out the nerf bat) I'd probably do that.



This can prevent arcanists from stomping all over characters specced for other skills even at higher DCs, but if sheer overuse is your problem (because all those dice look messy or something) just add a few penalties for failure. Give magic burnout if you fail, or temporary weakening of other skills immediately following usage, or trying to do vastly different things with Magecraft within a short period can injure you if your unlucky, etc... It will encourage players to be slightly more discerning with it, and use it sparingly. (Mind you, those penalties would have to be balanced, too. We don't want to make the party wizard pass out every time he tries to disenchant an evil tree.)
See, this seems more in the spirit of what Magecraft's supposed to be able to do. Have to see it in action like anything else, but this seems the most likely to at least keep from making it worthless.
avatar
Caden2112
Best Pony
Best Pony

Posts : 1322
Join date : 2012-12-02
Age : 31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Ramsus on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:57 pm

*shrug* Z2's fix is the best idea of how to handle things so far but, it really depends on what the end result looked like. It could easily get into overly limiting territory.

(Sheesh Logan. Well, I guess now that an admin has shown up to threaten people who didn't actually do anything wrong we know this is a real discussion. Seriously though, why did you threaten Clockeye for saying "if you guys officially do X, I will houserule things"? I'd say you owe the guy an apology but, I guess that'd be out of the question.)
avatar
Ramsus
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 5688
Join date : 2012-07-19
Age : 34
Location : California

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  LoganAura on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:35 pm

I'm sorry for reacting to Clockeye in a bit of a snappy way, I read into his response a bit of hostility towards, well, everyone over a game developer decisions (Primarily the "Screw you to the admins" since the game devs and admin/mods aren't the same group) but my 'no more hostility please' still stands.

_________________
Active Games:
AoH2, where the party is climbing an endless tower. Primarily because I've been sick during campaign days.
Ponysona 4, Where all heck's breaking lose
Saint Trotez: Where Snipe is paranoid and snarked at Snarl.
Satisfying Values (Hiatus): Mic is chasing after a Glitch.


Retired or inactive Games:
Too many to count.
avatar
LoganAura
Administrator
Administrator

Gender : Male
Posts : 2925
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 24
Location : Mass

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:46 pm

I apologize if my comments came off as heated, for that was not my intention. There was no intended anger or malice behind anything I said. That out of the way, on the subject of giving Do's and Dont's for magecraft, I'd say that it could help. Another fix to it would be to rule that magecraft may not duplicate the effect of any existing utility talent. This would force people to be more creative with its uses and stop it from infringing on the usefulness of other utilities, however it would also force players and DM's to have a fairly good knowledge of the rulebooks, or else keep them open at all times. So, it's not the best fix, but it's one I'd like to throw out there.

_________________
It's a teenage dragon hipster with daddy issues. Eeyup.
avatar
Lapis-Lazily
Overworked Designer
Overworked Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 979
Join date : 2012-07-20
Age : 24
Location : Canterlot

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  tygerburningbright on Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:28 pm

I must agree that a list of Does and Don't would be a good idea and actually preventing magecraft from copying other talents would also be good.
avatar
tygerburningbright
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 3141
Join date : 2012-07-19
Location : USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Paper Shadow on Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:30 pm

Here's a question regarding Magecraft: how would one go around dealing with CMCs?

_________________
Ellipses are kinda my thing...

Based Emotion Chart:
avatar
Paper Shadow
Smile Like You Mean It
Smile Like You Mean It

Posts : 3754
Join date : 2012-11-23
Age : 24

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:58 pm

Quietkal wrote:Okay, let's enumerate the problem with Magecraft before we start suggesting things to fix it. So we actually know what we're supposed to be fixing.

Things I have problems with about Magecraft
1) By min-maxing, Magecraft is able to replicate other utility talents with fairly high success rate. Not sure if this is because of poor choices by DMs or just min-max.
2) Characters with Magecraft are essentially able to make reactionary checks to everything, slowing down the game and adding an automatic luck chance to solving problems, rather than using teamwork.
I think Quietkal has the right thought process on what we should be looking at and I think there's one more valid point to be made:

3) Magecraft reveals the feast or famine disparity of the Arcana stat.  

Flat Arcana is one of the worst skills in the game while Magecraft allows you to bend reality to your whim.  What would help both is bringing things towards the middle.  Give basic Arcana the ability to detect magic rather than just Magecraft and give Magical Tricks a bit more viability.

The question was raised to why people don't have issue with the Element of Magic.  Well:

  • Requires a Magic Point.  This limits how often it can be used.
  • Five minute time limit limits how long it's active.  Doubly so due to preparation times.  
  • It's clearly defined.  It's easy to figure out what it can and can't do.
avatar
ZamuelNow
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 3307
Join date : 2013-03-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Kindulas on Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:46 am

Indeed, the element of Magic can only be used so often, that makes it fair. Magecraft just keeps on chugging.

Also, the "do's and don'ts" list doesn't really work, it's an awkward bandaid that can't possibly hope to cover all of what you should and shouldn't do with it, so it won't really solve the problem except for create a bunch of restrictions that Magecraft, if kept in the same spirit, shouldn't really have. It is ultimately the same concept as the examples, giving a feel for the power level of DCs... but that apparently didn't solve everything. It's still a headache to many DMs. Magecraft isn't even necessarily broken, either, that's not the main issue - it's a headache. It's some that the needs to be carefully kept in line, and as such if we keep it's kind of thing, its abilities probably need to be kept to something clearly optional. The issue with just counting on the DM to ban it is that if something is listed as a main talent, players can find it especially irritating when the DM rules something out like that, and might argue about it, and many DMs would probably throw up their hands and say "okay okay, I won't ban it." So... magecraft as something optional perhaps, with magical fiddling more core, and perhaps Magecraft with both it and MT as a prereq (magical fiddling would likely not have MT as a prereq).

Also, the argument against the change that almost all wizard builds would have to respec their character sounds like a huge indication that it is overpowered. Any time something is good enough that you feel bad for not taking it - that's a flag that something's wrong.


avatar
Kindulas
Designer
Designer

Posts : 636
Join date : 2012-12-11

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:25 am

An ability that has lots of glorious opportunities for experienced DMs with a strong understanding of balance and game design... But provides headaches and is unstable in the hands of the new DMs (or DMs that aren't studying game economies) that this system is supposed to be friendly and supportive towards?

Sounds like a good candidate for an optional expansion.

Other than that, I like the idea of magecraft focusing more on fiddling with existing magical effects as originally intended - the way Mechanics lets you fiddle with locks and similar - than on the current "do anything". It would make the talent far less able to replicate other abilities and limit its overall craziness. Might just be a band-aid though.

_________________
Looking for an artist right now, one that would be excited to work with me and Kindulas in creating a superhero comic. If you're interested, know anyone that might be interested, or just want to give the script for our first issue a read - enjoy the link below.

My Comic Project
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3098
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Philadelphus on Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:29 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Other than that, I like the idea of magecraft focusing more on fiddling with existing magical effects as originally intended - the way Mechanics lets you fiddle with locks and similar - than on the current "do anything". It would make the talent far less able to replicate other abilities and limit its overall craziness. Might just be a band-aid though.
You know...what about a sort of "Arcana is Mechanics for magic" mindset? You don't need to take a utility talent to mess with a machine using Mechanics, so how about Arcana letting you fiddle with magic on its own? Mechanics could let you pick a lock on a door, Arcana could let you adjust a spell locking it enough to let you through. On the flip side, Mechanics doesn't let you just summon a machine out of thin air, and neither would Arcana, by itself, allow you to create magic where none already existed.

I forget who off the top of my head, but someone pointed out today in another thread that Arcana is currently a sort of feast-or-famine skill: it's the most useful skill if you have Magecraft, but if you don't, it's actually pretty useless except for magic detection and possibly the "magic Endurance" use some GMs give it. If Arcana did something like I proposed it'd be potentially useful for all characters, not just those that have Magical Tricks or Magecraft.

With such a change you could essentially leave Magical Tricks and Magecraft the way they are now (though perhaps with a daily limit to MC), with MT allowing unlimited creation of minor magic spells and MC a more powerful version.

_________________
Links to all the official sourcebooks in one place.
Optional Talent Specialization for your characters.
avatar
Philadelphus
Designer
Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 734
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 29
Location : Hilo, Hawai‘i

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Retooling Magecraft

Post  Xel Unknown on Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:59 pm

As the title says, this topic is for people to talk about Magecraft, what's wrong with it, and how to fix it. Not just for the new ability system but just in general.

Personally I see Magecraft and it's predesser It's Witchcraft to be basically just the talent to take to "do magic" and the whole limits of what power you can get well the resolts depend on the character, the arcana stat, the result of the skill check roll, and how the GM feels if it "made the DC" or not. What totally bugs me is that the Devs had heard that there was people who was talking It's Witchcraft no matter their arcana stat, the reaction was from the Devs: "This isn't what we wanted that Utility to do! This is for High Level Arcana only!" So then they retoolled it till we got out Magecraft/Magical Tricks... Which, I really still to this day, don't really understand that opinion of "do magic" is only for high level arcana, cause personally I think it was a GOOD thing that people of all types of arcana stats where taking it. Anyone should be able to "do magic" as it were. And if anything that's what the system is moving to with turning Magecraft Optional and stuff... So arcana will be able to just do magic somehow. Or something I don't really fully know the details to what that change will be for the Arcana stat and the rest of them.

So then back to the main topic, Magecraft. From where I see it, we got like a 3 (possible 4) teired build up for how magic should go with the system. Right now it stands at:

Level 0: No Magecraft/Magical Tricks taken.

Level 1: Magical Tricks only taken. (personally this level just strikes me as extreamly weak and pointless, yet some people can make it work, good for them)

Level 2: Magical Tricks & Magecraft taken. (therefore full power of the do anything magic, is taken if you got 15 or higher in arcana, which I think it absurd that in this one little area the system demands builds to made first if you want a mage of any kind, sure you can reflavor other utilties, but that doesn't have the same feel when compaired to having the grabbag of all magical options to do that Magecraft provides)
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:24 pm

Xel Unknown wrote: What totally bugs me is that the Devs had heard that there was people who was talking It's Witchcraft no matter their arcana stat, the reaction was from the Devs: "This isn't what we wanted that Utility to do! This is for High Level Arcana only!" So then they retoolled it till we got out Magecraft/Magical Tricks... Which, I really still to this day, don't really understand that opinion of "do magic" is only for high level arcana, cause personally I think it was a GOOD thing that people of all types of arcana stats where taking it. 
You misunderstand. We heard that the power was varying hugely by DMs, though many were setting the DCs to do things so low that anyone could use it to do great things and people who *maxed* into the arcana stat did utterly broken things. When something is so powerful that it's awesome in non-specialized builds and utterly insane in specialized builds... That's the definition of a power imbalance. When something's power is based on how high your Arcana skill is, and it's still really good for people who only have a 5 in arcana... It's going to be insane for people that have an 18.

We also wanted there to be a way for someone who didn't have a high arcana stat to do useful magical things. Variety in magical effects shouldn't just be limited to arcana-maxers. So we created Magical Tricks - a stat-independent ability for people of all types to use magic in nifty ways.

So the current draft of the abilities does its best to make a specialized version of the ability (magecraft) that requires a substantial investment into the arcana skill to use, plus taking two talents. Then, there's magical tricks which doesn't care about your arcana stat and only takes one talent. However, despite our added information to the Magecraft ability and discussion of what different DCs mean, DMs are still setting DCs that make it really overpowered in some games and underpowered in others.

Ultimately, I expect we'll make Magecraft an optional tool for DMs (I'll still use it) but not a core rule... Rather redescribing the arcana skill as basically a, "Mechanics-for-magic". Mechanics doesn't let you create whole machines out of nowhere, but it lets you fiddle with traps and devices to get them working or tweak how they work. Same for Arcana.

_________________
Looking for an artist right now, one that would be excited to work with me and Kindulas in creating a superhero comic. If you're interested, know anyone that might be interested, or just want to give the script for our first issue a read - enjoy the link below.

My Comic Project
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3098
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Hayatecooper on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:50 pm

Don't we have a thread for this?
Like.. two of them?
avatar
Hayatecooper
Equestrian Honor Guard
Equestrian Honor Guard

Gender : Male
Posts : 549
Join date : 2012-08-03
Age : 26
Location : Brisbane Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:00 am

Probably. I didn't check the thread, just responded to the email notification. Now I realize it's a new thread, it *does* seem highly redundant. Probably should continue discussion in one of the existing threads.

_________________
Looking for an artist right now, one that would be excited to work with me and Kindulas in creating a superhero comic. If you're interested, know anyone that might be interested, or just want to give the script for our first issue a read - enjoy the link below.

My Comic Project
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3098
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Pingcode on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:19 am

Merged into existing thread. Carry on!
avatar
Pingcode
Technical Administrator
Technical Administrator

Gender : Female
Posts : 851
Join date : 2013-02-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:24 am

Thank you tech wizzard! I feel silly that I also forgot about this one when I did that eariler...
avatar
Xel Unknown
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 7018
Join date : 2012-08-30
Age : 28
Location : Somewhere, nowhere

View user profile http://us3.herozerogame.com/?resource_request=23219_2_1

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:25 am

If anyone has magecraft, it's Pingcode.

_________________
Looking for an artist right now, one that would be excited to work with me and Kindulas in creating a superhero comic. If you're interested, know anyone that might be interested, or just want to give the script for our first issue a read - enjoy the link below.

My Comic Project
avatar
Stairc -Dan Felder
Lead Designer
Lead Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 3098
Join date : 2012-07-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Philadelphus on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:40 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Ultimately, I expect we'll make Magecraft an optional tool for DMs (I'll still use it) but not a core rule....
Personally, I'm all for having more optional supplements. This system has been playtested for over a year now, we've started to get a feel for things that are difficult/confusing for a new DM or contentious, Magecraft and a Tons of Fun table being the prime examples. With them being optional modules, DMs can feel free to take them or leave them without feeling like they're banning parts of the core system.

Character customization is a huge aspect of the system and it does it very well, but what about customization of the system itself? I think it'd be great if one person could take the core rules, a Magecraft expansion, Paper Shadow's Combat expansion, and Pingcode's Heal expansion and run a campaign that conforms to their vision and plays very differently to someone else who takes the core rules, my Talent Specialization system, and a Tons of Fun Expansion. And then a third person could run a completely different-feeling campaign by taking yet another permutation of optional elements.

_________________
Links to all the official sourcebooks in one place.
Optional Talent Specialization for your characters.
avatar
Philadelphus
Designer
Designer

Gender : Male
Posts : 734
Join date : 2012-07-18
Age : 29
Location : Hilo, Hawai‘i

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:10 pm

What's interesting is that if Arcana's definition is properly updated, there will be less of a need for even having Magecraft at all.
avatar
ZamuelNow
Freakin' Alicorn Princess

Gender : Male
Posts : 3307
Join date : 2013-03-19

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Deal with Magecraft, and what it should be

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 3 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum