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Post  Deathstorm50 Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:01 pm

LoganAura wrote:Hiya and welcome to the forums Death! (Saying that especially with the two spambots that just came on. Having a new, real human is a good bit of relief)

I don't know what the math of destinies are, but that does look good to me. The lv 10 is the awesome, powerful, akin to shapeshifter that we were mentioning.


Edit before posting: Limiting a destiny to a utility talent (Other than the kind of jokish Master of Madness destiny) is a bit odd.
Thanks for the feedback! Like I said, I have never tried to build a destiny before, so I wasn't quite sure of what to put down on the destiny to keep balance, so I just worked the existing three-tiered utilities into a progressive destiny-like format. I'd love to see someone build this destiny into something more unique, however. Also, glad to be here, this is a really friendly forum!
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Post  LoganAura Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:46 pm

We try Big Smiles, Sweetie 

Might need to wait for one of the game devs to come to comment on that
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:43 am

Great to have you Deathstorm. It's great to see you throw your hat into the ring and take a crack at the Avatar destiny. Really busy moving today, so I can't give in-depth commentary right now but I'd be happy to let you know what the balance on destiny features is.

Level 4 - As good as 2 Utility Talents

Level 7 - As good as 3 Utility Talents

Level 10 - As good as 8 Utility Talents

Naturally, utility talents have to be balanced by feel to an extent rather than just math - but it's a good basis to have.
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Post  sunbeam Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:51 am

Another important conversion is that a specific utility talent is worth 1.5 racial points, if you want to throw racial traits into a destiny. Naturally Skilled rounds up to 2 because it's more versatile than any one utility talent.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:53 am

Well, once you choose that talent it's no longer versatile. The main reason it rounds to 2 is to make it so that just filling your racial traits with utility talents is actually going to *hurt* your build from an optimization perspective, so people aren't encouraged to just use genetic engineering as extra utility talents.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:17 am

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Great to have you Deathstorm. It's great to see you throw your hat into the ring and take a crack at the Avatar destiny. Really busy moving today, so I can't give in-depth commentary right now but I'd be happy to let you know what the balance on destiny features is.

Level 4 - As good as 2 Utility Talents

Level 7 - As good as 3 Utility Talents

Level 10 - As good as 8 Utility Talents

Naturally, utility talents have to be balanced by feel to an extent rather than just math - but it's a good basis to have.
Thanks for the protips, Stairc! That really does help me, but I had a question about this destiny, because there's stuff I want to put there, but I don't know if there are precedents for it. I don't know about others, but I'm imagining Aang from Avatar when I look at this destiny, and I'm pretty sure he was the inspiration for the original talents. But if that's the case, I don't think that, at the beginning, it should come naturally and without some risk. I imagine some rule determining what has control when you activate the Form of the Avatar at level four. Like, roll a d6, and on a four or higher, you maintain control of the form for the duration of it, but on a 3 or less, you start acting on instinct, and may start reacting violently, so that the other players need to make a skill check to rein you in. Also, in a particularly trying part of a campaign, the PH could ask you to make an Endurence check, or another d6 roll, to keep the Form of the Avatar to break out and start reacting violently. This would allow for a large amount of power at the level four, but a toss-up on whether you can use it right, a sort of gambler's destiny. Thusly, the level seven could include, not only the Flying Ace and Advanced Ponykinesis at-will, but the ability to take a 3-or-2 and up roll for control over the Form, and lower DCs on Form Control checks, rounding out the destiny and making it feel more rounded out. The level ten might feature full control over the Avatar State as well, and no further Control checks would need to be made. But there is another thing I feel the need to ask before I continue: Could combat talents feature in a destiny? Because going with the Avatar, I'd expect him/her to be able to fight, at least a little.

I'm sorry for the wall of text.
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Post  LoganAura Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:17 pm

Combat and Non-combat are kind of strictly separated. Like..... Unless it's house ruled, you can't use non-combat things like destiny powers or utilities or elements in combat.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:51 pm

I was more asking if a destiny could grant combat talents. I realize that utility talents couldn't be used for combat, but I was just wondering if a destiny could give, say, the Flametounge combat talent to someone who didn't have it from character creation. I don't think it could, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
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Post  LoganAura Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:29 pm

*Shakes head* If it's going into the official documents, as far as I know a destiny shouldn't allow for combat talents. There's an unofficial one kicking around, but something out of combat: Utilities, boons, destinies, racials, etc, aren't really supposed to give combat talents, or combat advantages in general.

Edit: It's one of the reasons why -borns are a tad weird and are worded in the way they are, otherwise someone with fire, ice, lightning, acid, and water immunities would be immune to those sorts of things in combat.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:32 pm

Alright then, thanks for telling me straight up. With that in mind, what about the other bits I was talking about? Any thoughts on those?

Edit: I just assumed for the -borns that any ice, fire, acid, or lightning in combat is of a magical nature, and thus pierces the immunity. And Waterborn says outright that powerful jets are still gonna hurt, which is the only way I can imagine using water in combat.
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Post  LoganAura Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:45 pm

You have a point, however I believe Fireborn mentions 'an adult dragon's breath' which is implied to be magical in nature in most dragon's cases. That being said, it wouldn't account for, say... a party fighting a circus clown who fights with acid-filled-pies, fire-breathing (The alcohol and match type), and rigged joybuzzers. or something.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:51 pm

...Touché, Logan. But is it a possible level four feature that the activation of the power leaves it up to the dice whether the player can control himself?
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:54 pm

It's absolutely possible. However, it might not be conducive to a good play experience - because even if the player in question likes the idea of the high risk scenario the other players might not enjoy watching their friend roll the dice on an event that could backfire against all of them.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:00 pm

You could leave the rolling to the PH. It's my understanding that some DMs and GMs will influence rolls if it suits the story, or depending on player actions. So if the PH handles the rolls of chance, you could count on a few of them letting players control themselves in really important scenes to keep the game going in a pleasant direction. Of course, those same PHs might be tempted by the inverse, so I'm not sure...


Edit: Not that I endorse rampant rule-fudging, it's just that, in a situation where story/fun and rules are perpendicular to each other, I think that fun/story has to come first more often than not.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:06 pm

If that's what you're basing it off of - it requires relying on the DM, GM, PH or what-have-you to control your fate to their whims regardless of your decisions (not good for a lot of player morale). It also means, even if they are controlling the results like that, you need to count on the DM to balance things appropriately in these controlled rolls - which we can't count on and might lead to a worse player experience.

Of course, Laughter is a popular and wild dice-rolly thing too - but those are also heavily based around the DM's custom table being good. It's also the only way such a wild thing can work - it's flavor and fun is entirely based off random stuff happening. Plus, your Element is often not used - but if you have a whole destiny path you're not regularly using because of peer-pressure, that probably feels less fun (there's a reason the laughter destiny is cautioned against).

TLDR; You can absolutely make the destiny with a chance of not being able to control the power. However, I think more players and groups are going to like it better if the transformation is controlled.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:20 pm

I suppose you're right, Stairc, and it's pretty clear I need to put a lot of thought into trying to make this destiny balanced and fun. I kinda want to thank the community of this forum, and especially the heads of the Pony Tales system, for the hard work you guys have put into making a reliable system that is unique, fun, and engaging. I want to say that, because it's a sad truth that people simply don't say "thank you" enough. So thanks to all of you.
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:24 pm

You're a hundred percent welcome. Great to hear from you. Glad you're having fun and can't wait to see your next idea. =)
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Post  Philadelphus Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:28 pm

I haven't seen Avatar so I can't comment on the flavor of your idea, so this is purely from a game-mechanics point of view: while there are destinies that require a random chance to get their effects, they tend to be disliked by players. See the Very Best Friend destiny, which requires a coin flip to see if you get the level 4 power, and the level 7 power is dependent on the level 4 power as well. Whenever discussions of destinies take place it's pretty much guaranteed that someone will comment on how they dislike this state of affairs.

From a gamer's perspective, it's not hard to see why; destinies are supposed to be these amazing cool things, the things you bust out when things get serious, and no one except possibly really dedicated role-players likes going "Ok, I'm using my super cool destiny power to get us out of this mess!...oh wait, no I'm not, I just wasted my use of it for the day because the dice rolled the wrong way. Well, so much for that!"

In regards to having the GM make the roll and possibly fudging it: why bother having a roll at all at that point if you're just going to ignore the results? When would it ever be appropriate not to ignore them? Because I can't really think of a situation where a player is going to be happy that their destiny failed.

Now after all the criticism, some hopefully helpful advice. As I said, I don't know exactly what kind of flavor you're going for, but I gathered that you want the Avatar state to be a bit less powerful at the start, perhaps even with some drawbacks. This could be achieved mechanically in a number of ways: perhaps instead of "no penalties" flying, you could start off with It's Almost Like Flying (-10 penalties) at level 4, going to Flight School (-5 penalties) at level 7, to Cloud Chaser (no penalties) at level 10. Immunity to natural 1s could happen at level 7 or 10 instead of level 4; perhaps the level 4 could even cause natural 2s to be treated as natural 1s? There are many different ways you could proceed from a fairly weak (2 utility talents' worth) level 4 state up to a super powerful (8 utility talents' worth) state at level 10 without requiring players to get lucky on a dice roll.

Very Best Friend (level 4 and 7):

Edit before posting: Annnd, ninja'd by three different posts while I was writing this. So some of it might be outdated.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:46 pm

Philadelphus wrote:
As I said, I don't know exactly what kind of flavor you're going for, but I gathered that you want the Avatar state to be a bit less powerful at the start, perhaps even with some drawbacks. This could be achieved mechanically in a number of ways: perhaps instead of "no penalties" flying, you could start off with It's Almost Like Flying (-10 penalties) at level 4, going to Flight School (-5 penalties) at level 7, to Cloud Chaser (no penalties) at level 10. Immunity to natural 1s could happen at level 7 or 10 instead of level 4; perhaps the level 4 could even cause natural 2s to be treated as natural 1s? There are many different ways you could proceed from a fairly weak (2 utility talents' worth) level 4 state up to a super powerful (8 utility talents' worth) state at level 10 without requiring players to get lucky on a dice roll.

Edit before posting: Annnd, ninja'd by three different posts while I was writing this. So some of it might be outdated.
Thanks for the advice anyway. I hadn't actually considered any of that! I'll be sure to tinker with the Avatar draft some more!
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:53 pm

Philadelphus has a great eye for noncombat stuff in particular. Lapis and I are going to be digging into some FotA destiny ideas today, so looking forward to getting any and all ideas.

Also, make sure you include a choice of 2 or 3 potential options at the level 7 feature. It makes the destiny feel more personalized and makes hitting level 7 more interesting.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:48 pm

Alright, I think I have a version that is a little bit better than before, but I don't know.


Avatar


Level 4 – Taste of Power
All your life you’ve felt that you could so much more than your peers, and now that you’ve begun on your grand adventures, this power will sometimes manifest briefly at your beck and call. You gain the Form of the Avatar utility talent. This power is dangerous, however, and comes at a cost. Treat all natural 2s as critical failures.

         Form of the Avatar – Magic
         Preparation Time: 5 seconds
         You enter the Form of the Avatar. In Form of the Avatar, you gain the Flight School and Ponykinesis utility talents, and you gain the racial talents Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn, and Waterborn.  You can’t use any of your normal racial, combat, and utility talents. You may end this effect at any time prior to 15 minutes, whereupon it will end automatically.


Level 7 – Distinctive Training
You have spent many moons attempting to better yourself and your Form, and you are beginning to witness the fruits of your labors. Form of the Avatar now lasts for 30 minutes, and yu may choose one of the following utility talents:

       Mental Exercises
       You’ve honed your mind into a finely carved tool, ready for you to use at any time. Form of the Avatar now has the ability to manipulate objects within 50 feet of you weighing up to 500 lbs. or less.

       Balancing Acts
       The cost of your new power is too hard to live with, and so you’ve made it a goal to rid yourself of your clumsiness. You can reroll any natural 1s and 2s.

       Fancy Acrobatics
       You’ve noticed that you’re not particulary good at flying while transformed, so you’ve been pushing yourself pretty hard to keep up and exceed your more agile allies. May roll twice on Athletics and Acrobatics checks while flying in your Form of the Avatar.


Level 10 – Ascendant Powers
Be it through your meditation, research, or vigorous use, you have unlocked that which was with you from the start. Form of the Avatar is replaced by the Avatar State utility talent, and you may choose another seventh level utility.

        Avatar State – Magic
        Preparation Time: 5 seconds
         You enter the Avatar State. While in the Avatar State, all your attributes are set to ten, you gain the Cloud Chaser and at-will Advanced Ponykinesis utility talents, and furthermore you  gain the Fireborn, Frostborn, Thunderborn, Acidborn, and Waterborn racial abilities. You may disregard any critical failures. You can’t use any of your normal racial, combat, and utility talents. You may end this effect at any time prior to 1 hour, whereupon it ends automatically.


Is this better than before? I sure hope so.
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Post  Xel Unknown Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:19 pm

I say... It looks too weak as is. For a Denisty features that costs a magic point to use. You are really getting totally gipped for such a power cost.
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Post  Deathstorm50 Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:36 pm

Which one? Level four, ten, or both? Because I was just thinking that the level ten seemed a bit weak. Next time I can get to a real computer and not on a smartphone, I'll either change them to x/day or power them up. Maybe make the level ten destiny give you both the level sevens you didn't pick up. *sighs* I don't know...
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Post  Xel Unknown Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:45 pm

Both level 4 and level 10 seem weak, and level 10 seem to even forget how to combo with any of the options from level 7... Or if they do it wasn't built to do such a thing. I think that keeping it a magic point is a smart move. Just also getting upgraded to how the stats were to begin with before the Utility nerf was done. Like level four getting 10 or 15 to stats. Or something... And Maybe work level ten to be more upgrades like how level 7 is. Also the getting locked out of racials and utilties... Is interesting... But would lead to problems of some passivies to be non-usable and it wouldn't make logical sense. I mean if you have Airal Ace, you take this, and boom you can't fly that great now? Weird...
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Post  Stairc -Dan Felder Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:56 pm

Getting locked out of utilities makes sense for a "form of the" talent and, if we do with upgraded attributes, means that it limits the amount of actual min/maxing that can happen. Getting locked out of racials makes sense for some things, but when you factor in things like Specialist - it can be odd. Of course, this form will likely set new attributes anyway so it doesn't truly matter - but there's probably some racial trait we're not thinking of that would be a similar problem.
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