Element/Virtue discussion

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Zarhon on Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:41 pm

I think Honesty's "power" depends on the "without distortion" aspect, which is a bit vague and subject to DM interpretation.

If a hostile creature is intelligent or particularly cunning, even if it is forced to answer truthfully to questions, whether that information helps you, or has double meanings, or is true in a different sense, is a major factor in how much you get out of such an "interrogation". It's pretty much a staple of a good villain.

If a DM makes it so that the Honesty-affected creature is forced to spew every detail of about a subject without "witholding" any information, then yes, it is pretty damn powerful, and can outright stymy any attempts from the DM to build a villain that works with lies and deceit, or that works with "technical truths". If the creature can still fool or trick you with careful wording, whilst still answering honestly, or only tell you details related to the exact question asked, it isn't nearly as powerful.

It can also use its own answers to lead you to asking the wrong questions (Dan's AoH campaign almost successfully employed this, having a kidnapper villain try to get the PCs to waste their three questions questions that wouldn't help them get to the kidnapped pony).

For example, possible answers to the question of "Where did you bury old man Oats?"

1) "Under an oak tree." (vague, unhelpful truth, without distortion).
2) "Right under the old oak tree with the carved hearts, within the local botanical garden." (precise truth).
3) "Nowhere" (there isn't any "old man Oats" - they're asking about the wrong creature, or the creature has a different name, so technically true).

Or another example, "Did you steal this green ring?"
1) "No" (he borrowed it without permission, which technically, isn't stealing)
2) "No" (he asked for permission "as a joke" and got it, which was taken as a joke by the victim of the theft)
3) "No" (the ring was his to begin with - he just took it back)
4) "No" (the ring isn't green - it's jade-colored)

Or "Did you harm the puppy?"
1) "No" (his lackeys did it for him)
2) "No" (he killed it painlessly)
3) "No" (he stole it's soul, which left it completely unharmed)

It's all a question of what "without distortion" means - complete and precise truths, no withheld information, or just a direct answer to the question given?

Honesty's power also greatly relies on the PC's ability to ask the right questions - if you allow a loophole in the question wording, you can make what was supposed to be a guarantee of truth into a iron-clad lie that will screw you over later.

To be frank, this sounds like a really crappy GM.  I can see the argument for non-sentient traps or a chessmaster villain who's setup things so his minions carry out his plans anyway, but once effected, a creature should not be able to act against you of their own free will. Though temporary, I've always viewed it as a change of heart ability. They have no desire to act against you.
Well, the current wording only stops the creature (and ONLY it) from being hostile. It doesn't make it any more amiable towards you, nor does it prevent it from taking measures that are explicitly non-hostile, but still directly detrimental (for instance, ignoring the PCs as he activates his doomsday device, ordering minions to "ensure any intruders are eliminated", locking the players inside a dangerous area, summoning a uncontrollable, chaotic creature...). The big bad isn't going to just let you waltz around his base, just because he personally can't. There's also the vagueness of "something happens that would make it hostile again" - it doesn't say that the "something" has to be from the PCs (an unrelated NPC could ruin the effect this way) - just something that would make the creature pissed off and murdery. I'd say a wording clarification would be in order on how far this ability can go.

A suggestion that could be implemented for honesty, working off the above idea of "enforce truth in yourself":

Honest-Darn-Truth:
Honest-Darn-Truth - Magic
Your next three sentences are believed as truthful by all nearby creatures. The sentences must be truthful, and otherwise devoid of lies.

It may seem counter-productive, but it could allow you to both ensure your truth is not taken lightly, as well as to actually mislead creatures with truths.

"I mean no harm to any of your men, general" (I will harm you personally, or your women, instead)

"Did you steal the cake?"
"I can truthfully say that I did not steal the cake, nor did any of my party members, and am certain in my belief that we have been framed for it."
"Seems legit."
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Philadelphus on Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:08 am

ZamuelNow wrote:I think that's where keeping it vague works. Thus, is less about knowing the ninja outright has a contract on you but rather that the attack seems impersonal and during the non-hostile time you can question on specifics.
That sounds like a good way to phrase it to me. I think something like that could work for Kindness.

ZamuelNow wrote:I figured the +5 would be off the table due to avoiding passive stat bonuses. I feel that Honesty is pretty feast or famine. While I fully agree that compelling 3 questions can be quite powerful, I feel that requiring helpless feels like it really counters the conceptual feel of the others and has negative consequences. I think my view might shift a fair bit if it was noted that social situation helplessness can count (courtrooms, surround by a crowd you'd never attack, etc) as opposed to the only option being kicking someone in the face and tying them up. Helpless in itself really needs to be defined in the system. It's one of those "obvious" keywords that sorta isn't. Plus, even if kept as is, Honest still needs a slight rewording to mention it compels you (though admittedly that part feels obvious).

As far as the concept of proving yourself to be honest, I think that either would either be the issue of passive stat bonuses or would have to be a sort of Sweet and Elite for being trustworthy. The latter actually does seem like it could be interesting.
Yeah, I agree, I don't really like the idea of a passive stat boost either (even a very limited one like this), I just can't seem to think of anything else. I agree, when Honesty is useful it's very useful, but it can be hard to get to that point sometimes. It's fundamentally antagonistic in a way the other Elements aren't and one which I'm not entirely comfortable is befitting an Element of Harmony. I don't know. I agree "helpless" could stand a definition even though it seems obvious. I'd really like to see something else for it, but just haven't seen anything that really pops yet.

Pingcode wrote:...Hey there's a thought.

What if acting in accordance with your element when it would clearly cost you won you a bonus magic point? Some would be harder than others, but the hardest ones tend to be more individually powerful anyway so it sort of balances out.
Not saying this couldn't work, but I know that Dan is very reluctant to add additional ways to get Magic Points in. And while I think we could potentially add more in, I'm afraid that making it be for "roleplaying" will just end up with a lot of gray areas and arguments about whether or not someone's roll-playing deserved a Magic Point or not (reading your examples I could already start to see loopholes and disagreements...). Technically, the GM's handbook already states that Magic Points can be given out for exceptional roll-playing, and I personally feel it works like that – leave it up to the GM so player's aren't just acting for the sake of rewards.

Zarhon wrote:Honest-Darn-Truth - Magic
Your next three sentences are believed as truthful by all nearby creatures. The sentences must be truthful, and otherwise devoid of lies.

It may seem counter-productive, but it could allow you to both ensure your truth is not taken lightly, as well as to actually mislead creatures with truths.
I think Logan Aura said this before about a similar proposal last year, but basically the ability of the Element of Honesty is the ability to tell really convincing lies? I don't really want to be focusing on evading the spirit of the law with loopholes. Maybe we all need to take a step back and consider slightly less literal interpretations of Honesty in the same way that Laughter isn't necessarily literally Laughter, and Magic and Generosity don't exactly map one-to-one with their literal meanings.

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:18 am

Problem with all these super-big posts, its a little daunting for someone to join the conversation...
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:36 pm

Philadelphus wrote:It's fundamentally antagonistic in a way the other Elements aren't and one which I'm not entirely comfortable is befitting an Element of Harmony. I don't know. I agree "helpless" could stand a definition even though it seems obvious. I'd really like to see something else for it, but just haven't seen anything that really pops yet.
I think it might be mostly stuck as is with the actual change being a set definition of helpless and maybe passive trust.

Honesty/Integrity Rewording Proposal:
Honesty
You have a reputation for being trustworthy.

<thematically appropriate name> - Magic
Target helpless creature is compelled to answer 3 questions that you ask truthfully without distortion.

At least this wording would mean you have a chance for good enough role play to get results without needing to use your element.  Scalpel versus chainsaw logic.  Moving on to helpless, I guess it could be defined as:

'Helpless' Definition Proposal:
A creature who is helpless can neither retaliate nor escape.  This is usually brought about in a situation where the creature has been physically restrained by other means or they are unconscious and unaware.  There are rare times when a creature can be rendered helpless by a social situation, such as a courtroom or public debate, though this would be due to the creature's reluctance to face the consequences of escape or retaliation as opposed to absolute inability.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Zarhon on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:45 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:
Philadelphus wrote:It's fundamentally antagonistic in a way the other Elements aren't and one which I'm not entirely comfortable is befitting an Element of Harmony. I don't know. I agree "helpless" could stand a definition even though it seems obvious. I'd really like to see something else for it, but just haven't seen anything that really pops yet.
I think it might be mostly stuck as is with the actual change being a set definition of helpless and maybe passive trust.

Honesty/Integrity Rewording Proposal:
Honesty
You have a reputation for being trustworthy.

<thematically appropriate name> - Magic
Target helpless creature is compelled to answer 3 questions that you ask truthfully without distortion.

At least this wording would mean you have a chance for good enough role play to get results without needing to use your element.  Scalpel versus chainsaw logic.  Moving on to helpless, I guess it could be defined as:

'Helpless' Definition Proposal:
A creature who is helpless can neither retaliate nor escape.  This is usually brought about in a situation where the creature has been physically restrained by other means or they are unconscious and unaware.  There are rare times when a creature can be rendered helpless by a social situation, such as a courtroom or public debate, though this would be due to the creature's reluctance to face the consequences of escape or retaliation as opposed to absolute inability.
@ the passive trust: When I first read it, I thought it was actually flavor text to the ability, rather than an actual effect you gain from it. I think that wording/effect is far too weak to be attributable as an actual mechanic that a DM would apply. Probably want to add "Almost all creatures consider you..." in it, so it's obvious as an effect and not flavor.

There's also the problem of "reputation", and how it spreads (animals, hillbillies, or other socially challenged creatures, even if they cared about someone being trustworthy, can't really gain knowledge of it from reputation, since it's usually impossible for such reputation to spread to differing, unrelated or unique creatures), as well as the general effect on that reputation/passive, if you actually lie, or accidentally go against it (in which case, your reputation becomes useless - you're known as trustworthy, except for when you lied those few times - you tarnish your own reputation! It's like having a mansion via "Sweet & Elite", and then demolishing it.).

@ Helpless: Whilst it does offer some more options (social stigma, and allows you to pull a "Phoenix Wright" moment), it still doesn't help with the situational limits of the ability, considering it's rare (rarer than even the restraining would be!). You still need a tailored situation.

What if, instead of offering the direct truth, Honesty worked indirectly? For instance, it compels a creature to give a hint of the truth, say a comment related to the truth, or to blurt out a lie that is completely unbelievable, or has a vital and easily noticed flaw in it? That way, the creature gives the PCs their information they need in a manner similar to a Freudian slip. For added simplicity, it could be made unaware of it, either automatically, or if it rolls poorly.

Honesty propsal #25432636426:
Honesty - Magic
Choose one:
1) Target helpless creature is compelled to answer 3 questions that you or your allies ask, truthfully, and without distortion.
2) Target creature is compelled to answer a question that you or your allies ask. It does so as it normally would (truth or lie), but always providing a form of indirect, truthful helpful information as well (a lie with a related truthful fact, an obvious blatant lie, a piece of truth told accidentally, or withheld information...). It is not made aware of its answer unless pressed about it.

Examples:

"Do you know anything about who the murderer might be?"
"No, I don't know anything about her."

"Where is the lost treasure of La Mulana?"
"I don't know what ancient jungle temple it's in, if that's what you're implying."

"Are you lying to us?"
"I would not lie to you unless I was protecting someone."

"If I push this button, will I die?"
"No, pushing the button will not immediately and horrifically kill you." (the trap it's linked to, though...)

Obvious problem with this idea: DM's ability to make the responses - they require a degree of on-the-spot creativity.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:50 pm

Philadelphus wrote:
Zarhon wrote:Honest-Darn-Truth - Magic
Your next three sentences are believed as truthful by all nearby creatures. The sentences must be truthful, and otherwise devoid of lies.

It may seem counter-productive, but it could allow you to both ensure your truth is not taken lightly, as well as to actually mislead creatures with truths.
I think Logan Aura said this before about a similar proposal last year, but basically the ability of the Element of Honesty is the ability to tell really convincing lies? I don't really want to be focusing on evading the spirit of the law with loopholes. Maybe we all need to take a step back and consider slightly less literal interpretations of Honesty in the same way that Laughter isn't necessarily literally Laughter, and Magic and Generosity don't exactly map one-to-one with their literal meanings.
Personally I don't see how this is allowing the Element of Honesty to be telling lies, it said the statement needs to be truthful and devoid of lies... Please explain how to get around that? Cause personally I'd LOVE something in this system to help people when trying to be honest, like they got a really crazy story THAT'S TRUE, but only way to get people to believe them is if they happen to be high-stat in persuasion? (which also is useful for lies as well, so I'd agrue it's useful for a character that wishes to be super-honest and trustworthy.) I highly dislike that with this system... You really can't get anything to help with making an honest story. Unless the GM feels like giving RP bonus for honesty... Which is really lame in my opinion.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  LoganAura on Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:04 pm

I think a tweaked Pinkie Promise might be a good thing. Like making an oath and people believing you will keep your word.

Edit: I am harping on Integrity primarily because being truthful is only one side of honesty.

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Zarhon on Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:24 am

Maybe apply an emotional depth to the honesty ability? For instance, allowing a creature to perfectly/unerringly tell your true emotions/feelings about something you're talking about? Something like a "reverse empathetic".

Look me in the eye:
Look me in the Eye - At will
When you talk to creatures, you may allow them to unerringly sense/experience your true emotions/beliefs/surface thoughts about a subject.*

*For instance, you can let a creature accusing you of being in league with a villain know how much you hate that villains guts.


Same thing could be applied to you as well - give you a superboosted "empathetic" to get a truthful though on a subject:

Windows to the Soul:
Honesty
Windows to the Soul - Magic
When talking to, or maintaining eye contact with a creature, you may pick three words (names, activities, etc...) that the creature would be aware of. You gain truthful knowledge of that creatures opinion, belief and/or emotions, related to the chosen words.*

*For instance, you might pick "evil" on a villain, and gain a sense of euphoria, or "betrayal" on a betrayer and sense remorse, or the name of a mother's child and sense motherly love....

It could also be extended to Loyalty...

Semper Fidelis / True Allegiance:
Semper Fidelis
When you talk to creatures, you may automatically have them learn who or what you are most truly loyal to, or who you are NOT loyal to. This information must be truthful.

True Allegiance - Magic
You learn who, or what, a target creature is most truly loyal to.*

*For instance, loyalty to a villain, loyalty to ones spouse, loyalty to oneself...

Pinkie Promise seems like a bad deal as far as utilities go...
Pinkie Promise stuff:

- It's actual effect of "cosmic retribution", if the promise is broken, is incredibly vague and prone to DM interpretation (instant death? Permanent crippling injury? Nat1s on every roll for the rest of the day? Giant meteor crushing you?), meaning it's power to enforce a promise is only as strong as the punishment - which the DM isn't supposed to reveal (or doesn't have anything planned when they do, making something up on the spot instead). I think the "punishment" might need a more concrete example.

- It's really, really, REALLY situational. To the point it has exactly one practical use: Ensuring an already-friendly creature is trustworthy enough to agree to the stated promise (which even a well-meaning, trustworthy creature might rightfully refuse to do, depending on what you want to commit it to!). It's useless for any enemy/hostile creature/unfriendly creature, and cannot be forced on anypony by any means, barring the extreme methods of coercion or threats (which still might not work).  

- Making the promise loophole-free is essential if one wants it to be effective at all. This is fine and dandy in a play-by-post, but time consuming and annoying in a skype game, or other fast-paced game.

- It can backfire against it's own user, most likely by accident (forgetting about the promise), carelessness (easy loopholes, or a promise that achieves nothing), or the DM (forcing the promise to be broken - much like how Paladins would get screwed over by DMs forcing them to lose their powers due to an alignment shift, back in the day).  

To sum: It's rarely/never used, hard to get into position to use, difficult to use when you CAN use it, requires careful forethought and wording to ensure it's usefulness, is in no way guaranteed to work, it's "enforcing effect" varies from DM to DM, a DM can (depending on the promise and creatures related to it) still ignore it, can royally screw over its own user by accident or by malicious creatures, is hard for a DM to work with (it's really hard to tailor a situation that would require the promise), provides zero actual benefits other than an illusion of "peace of mind".

I'd say it certainly needs a change, but I don't see any that wouldn't make it broken/abusable, or more useless/sitational than it is. Maybe an intrinsic knowledge of the promise (e.g. telepathically know when the promise will be, or is about to be, or has been broken), or a "future prediction" aspect - you can suggest a promise, and automatically learn if they will uphold it/break it/agree to it, before it's made.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:45 pm

Oh, that's clever for Honesty. It could be very useful to get people to believe you're telling the truth when it's important for them to believe your side of the story.

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  ZamuelNow on Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:50 pm

Zarhon wrote:There's also the problem of "reputation", and how it spreads (animals, hillbillies, or other socially challenged creatures, even if they cared about someone being trustworthy, can't really gain knowledge of it from reputation, since it's usually impossible for such reputation to spread to differing, unrelated or unique creatures), as well as the general effect on that reputation/passive, if you actually lie, or accidentally go against it (in which case, your reputation becomes useless - you're known as trustworthy, except for when you lied those few times - you tarnish your own reputation! It's like having a mansion via "Sweet & Elite", and then demolishing it.).
While my initial intent was for others to simply find the character trustworthy, I figured there would be back and forth argument about the meta of creatures with immunity. Plus, trying not to step on the toes of Kindness.

@ Helpless: Whilst it does offer some more options (social stigma, and allows you to pull a "Phoenix Wright" moment), it still doesn't help with the situational limits of the ability, considering it's rare (rarer than even the restraining would be!). You still need a tailored situation.
Solely meant to provide a suggestion for lack of the definition. I figure if the restraining is held up to such a high degree, the other concepts would be less usable as well, though they are worth acknowledging.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Philadelphus on Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:42 am

You know, some sort of "getting people to believe you" ability might work for Honesty, either as a replacement for the current effect or as an additional situational one. It definitely fits with the spirit of the show. I thought a bit more about the whole "getting people to believe what you say as long as it's technically true" and how that could still allow you to mislead people, and I realized it may be more of a feature than a bug. I remembered the part about Elements from the Player's Handbook:
Player's Handbook wrote:Each pony has an affinity for one of the Elements of Harmony. Your element can be anything from a major aspect of your character’s personality to a hidden part that even your character might not know about. For example, even a pathological liar might have an affinity for the element of honesty – the truth might just be a scary thing to her or buried deep down inside. Just about any pony can have an affinity for any element, and the more surprising combinations are often the most interesting – so feel free to choose whichever element you want.
This made me think that such an ability for a "pathological liar" might be really interesting – maybe the character is really good at saying things that are technically true but still misleading. Or maybe no one believes them because they're a known liar, and they could use such to power to be believed when the chips are down and it's really important. Could definitely lead to some interesting situations, so I don't really have reservations about it anymore.

The questions are, how to word something like that, and whether it should replace Honesty or be in addition to it (somehow).

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:28 pm

This is a bit of a thinking out loud suggestion and I'll note the potential for it to be quite flawed.  The new Magic is needed in order to tone down the level of power of the old one.  However, I feel that the new one is sort of encroached by the Virtue of Family.  It's not a huge issue (Honesty is still in a far worse spot) but was contemplating an adjustment to set it apart:

MagicMagic
Choose five abilities each worth 3 points or less at character creation. When you activate Magic, you may pick one of the abilities you chose. You or an ally you can see gains access to that ability for the next 10 minutes.
The ability to grant something like low end flight or fire immunity to a teammate is useful and sets it apart yet doesn't hit the level of doing everyone else's job like the old version did.  As said, there's potential for this to have massive issues I haven't initially seen but as said I'm thinking out loud here.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:33 pm

Personally I like the new version of Magic... Cause the old version was way too broud for me to really feel like I could ever use it. But the new version feels like it could be useful and I could plan to work with it.

Though I do agree that it did get nerfed a bit too hard and if given the power to grant allies powers too, would be cool.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Philadelphus on Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:02 am

I like it. A very small change in wording but it opens up a raft of tactical options and lets you use abilities on allies you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

Personally, I'm a little ambivalent about the Virtue of Family in the new abilities system. It kinda made sense in the old system where you only got racial points at character creation and didn't get any more, but in the new system it's a bit redundant since you get additional points as you level up. It doesn't really enable any new character types or strategies, it just gives you more points.

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:08 am

Same. I was hesitant to include it in the old system, as magic points are a unique aspect of the system and while some people think they won't like playing with them, having them in practice is good to count on - and the fewer ability points to keep track of the easier on the memory.

Here, I really don't see the point.

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  ZamuelNow on Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:15 am

Allowing you to grant abilities to allies with Magic would also allow it to fill the role of the Evolution level 7, Benevolent Genetics if that Destiny gets cut. Whether it does or doesn't, it probably needs clarification on how it handles prerequisites.

I'm mixed on Family. On one hand, a simple option for more points would appeal to some people. At the same time, it feels a bit too obviously like the no brainer min-max option.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Copper Rose on Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:02 am

I have an idea for the Element of Honesty, that I will be implementing in my Honesty campaign, that I think might make it a somewhat better element, while remaining balanced.
If you are in my campaign and read this, it will not apply to you, and you will get Vanilla Honesty:
Make it so that a bearer of the Element of Honesty urges honesty around them all the time. Basically, as an example, creatures within 5 meters of the bearer must pass an Endurance (or some other skill) check to successfully tell a lie. If they fail, truth instead (DM's discretion whether partial or whole truth) comes spilling from their mouth.

I imagine it would be somewhat similar to the town of Christmas in the latest Dr. Who Christmas episode, but each bearer is like a weak, miniature, sentient, moving tower.

He ate the wallet.

Edit: oh, and it's not a hard line for the distance. More like if you're 6 yards away, you have to pass a skill check DC 5, touching, DC 30. DM may decide if this applies to PC's.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Hayatecooper on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:44 pm

So have the character act as a walking Zone of Truth? Could be interesting, only problem is in most games you have no idea what a NPC is rolling so you'd still have no idea if they are lying or not.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  LoganAura on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:05 pm

And a jerky dm could just say "He passed"

Which is possible.

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Pingcode on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:53 pm

Idea that recently struck me for element of honesty, napkin draft as usual:

If it's the last thing I do - Magic
Choose a task or other goal with a focused scope (in general no broader than a Freaky Knowledge) and a definite end-point (to the best of your knowledge). Until your magic points next refresh, roll two times and take the result you prefer on all checks related to completing your chosen task. You may temporarily extend this benefit to any ally you are directly assisting in the completion of your chosen task.

At your option, you may gain increased bonuses with more challenging declarations for yourself.
[*] Choosing a moderately challenging task (approx. 50/50 odds normally), or with moderately challenging conditions attached (I'll break this door down before Twilight finishes this chapter of her book) provides a +2 bonus to task-related checks in addition to the double-roll.
[*] Choosing a task of considerable difficulty (I'll buck the entire orchard on my own), or with highly taxing conditions attached (I'll kick three apples into that tree blindfolded) provides a +5 bonus to task-related checks in addition to the double-roll. This already includes and does not stack with the previous challenge.
[*] A task that takes longer than a day may be automatically renewed every day with the expenditure of a magic point with no effort on your part. For each magic point spent in this way increase your bonus to task-related checks by +2, to a maximum of +10 to task-related checks.

In all cases, failing or otherwise abandoning your task results in suffering a penalty to all checks equal to any bonus you may have gained from honesty on your task for a full day. (ie. Abandoning a project that has taken a week so far will cause you to suffer a -10 to all checks for a full day)

---

It's a tad verbose but I tried to build it to honesty as integrity (You push yourself harder because you don't want to have to go back on your word) and encourage a bit of biting off more than you can chew ala Applejack. (You get even more if you really look like you're going to have to swallow the horseshoes)

The basic doubleroll is on the weak side compared to an MP firing, but it's good for consistent checks over a period of time - an average of 3 more, and less likely to screw up if it's something you're good at.

The more complex conditionals system is built to encourage making bigger promises - at its strongest, it's essentially powering you with an MP 24/7 when related to your chosen task.

There is however an avenue for abuse here - an overly broad long term goal (I'll be successful in life if it's the last thing I do!) or one of abusive scope (I'll defeat the campaign villain if it's the last thing I do!) could be exploited to essentially gain a 'free' always-on MP, or one that counts everywhere an MP might want to be used. I haven't tried to exhaustively list how it could be abused, but it's an easy hole to see and guard.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Copper Rose on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:01 pm

Comment on my previous suggestion for Honesty element, I meant it as in addition to the vanilla Honesty, not instead of.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Philadelphus on Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:03 pm

Had a thought about Honesty today, what if the wording were tweaked slightly from "Target helpless creature" to "Target helpless or willing creature"? This would let you use it on willing creatures whose trustworthiness you doubt, without having to antagonize them by getting them helpless. It'd be useful for situations where someone seems helpful or nice but you have your suspicions... (Obviously if they decline you can't use it on them unless they're helpless.)

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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:35 pm

I had actually assumed that a willing target would simply be one that allowed themselves to be helpless but that might be a good clarification to add. The biggest argument might be how it works on someone who's brainwashed.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  Xel Unknown on Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:14 pm

Still the biggest problem with Honesty is that it's 100% subjective on what it can do. Even with this change (which is a step in the right derection) we still don't got any clear cut def on what "helpless" means nor what "without distortion" means either.
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Re: Element/Virtue discussion

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:34 pm

I think "helpless" is the bigger problem between the two. "Without distortion" seems like it should be more easily worked out between a player and GM while the other is an outright gameplay definition.
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