The Alchemist Move Set

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The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:05 am

This is new move set idea I had while trying to make an alchemist character in the system. I realized there were a few scattered debuff powers and a few powers that could take advantage of it. I really liked the idea of combining these kinds of powers into a combo oriented class that chains and stacks debuffs upon opponents, then has damage dealing moves that do more damage if an enemy has debuffs. So, without further ado, I present some initial design ideas for the Alchemist move set.

[+2] Muddle the Mixture
You and target enemy are weakened until the end of your next turn. When you use this ability flip a coin. If you win the flip, you gain an additional 2 PiPs.

[+2] Acidic Addendum
Your next attack causes the target to suffer 5 ongoing damage(save ends), in addition to its other effects.

[+1] Extra Dosage
Deal 1d8 damage to target creature. Increase this damage to 1d12 if the creature is suffering from a save-ends condition.

[-2] Splash it in Their Eyes
Target creature is blinded. (save ends)

[-3] Expunge
Deal Xd10 damage to target creature where X is equal to the number of save-ends conditions it is currently suffering from. Remove all save-ends conditions from the target

[-3] You Broke My Flask – Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: An enemy deals you damage with an attack
Effect: Roll 1d4 and use the indicated effect
1: The target is dealt 1d8 damage
2: Target takes 5 ongoing damage (Save Ends)
3: Target is Weakened (Save Ends)
4: Target is Blind (Save Ends)

[-4] Everlasting Misery – Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An enemy saves against a condition
The target fails the triggering save.

[-7] Acid Rain
Deal 1d12 damage to all enemies. All enemies suffering from save-ends conditions take an additional 1d12 damage. All enemies damaged by this attack suffer 1d8 ongoing damage. (save ends)

[-8] Cocktail of Misfortune
Target creature is stunned, weakened, and suffers vulnerability 5.(save ends) Each condition is saved against separately.

That's what I have so far. A number of the names are temporary because I was having trouble naming them, and there are going to be some obvious balance issues, but that's why I'm throwing it to you guys. I really appreciate any feedback I get.

Edit: Reworked some abilities for balance, added some new ones, and removed some others. As always, advice is appreciated.


Last edited by Lapis-Lazily on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:29 am; edited 7 times in total
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Mr.Hero on Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:15 am

For the move needing a name: Something like Acidic Addendum or Corrosive Admixture?
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:31 am

Mr.Hero wrote:For the move needing a name: Something like Acidic Addendum or Corrosive Admixture?

I like Acidic Addendum. That's now edited into the original post
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SilentBelle on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:11 am

Oh I really like the idea of these alchemy moves. And many of them already seem quite balanced. I could see them being implemented really soon.
I'm thinking the Poison of Paralysis should probably cost [-5], either that or cost [-3] and stun for just one turn.(though that kind of defeats the whole (save ends) theme of this build)
I'm loving Expunge, though I think it should either cost [-2] (after all, you are removing effects from an enemy, or damaging an ally), or it should do d10 damage.
(I wonder if it's too powerful to be able to heal all of an allies conditions)
Or maybe it could do:
[-3] Expunge
Deal Xd8 damage to target creature where X is equal to the number of save-ends conditions it is currently suffering from. The target removes one condition that a save could end.

I also love the Healing Repressor that you made.
Alternatively I would suggest a similar move that would be something like:
[-3]: Target enemy receives -5 to saving throws (Save ends)

I'll try and think of some more critiques for your move set, and I hope to hear other people's opinions on this alchemist's set.
Great work so far!
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:01 pm

SilentBelle wrote:Oh I really like the idea of these alchemy moves. And many of them already seem quite balanced. I could see them being implemented really soon.
I'm thinking the Poison of Paralysis should probably cost [-5], either that or cost [-3] and stun for just one turn.(though that kind of defeats the whole (save ends) theme of this build)
I'm loving Expunge, though I think it should either cost [-2] (after all, you are removing effects from an enemy, or damaging an ally), or it should do d10 damage.
(I wonder if it's too powerful to be able to heal all of an allies conditions)
Or maybe it could do:
[-3] Expunge
Deal Xd8 damage to target creature where X is equal to the number of save-ends conditions it is currently suffering from. The target removes one condition that a save could end.

I also love the Healing Repressor that you made.
Alternatively I would suggest a similar move that would be something like:
[-3]: Target enemy receives -5 to saving throws (Save ends)

I'll try and think of some more critiques for your move set, and I hope to hear other people's opinions on this alchemist's set.
Great work so far!

Hmmm... I think for Expunge I like your idea of upping the damage dice to d10 because it makes the move strong and more punishing of use on your teammates, so it feels less broken that you can use it to clear your teammate's debuffs as well. As far as healing repressor, I originally was going to make it a minus penalty to saving throws, but there already is already a move that gives a -4 penalty in the handbook. I also enjoy how this version feels really cool and strong. As far as the Paralysis Potion, I probably will have to change the cost, but I'd like to see more opinions on the balance first. Thanks for the critique.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SimpleZen on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:33 am

Lapis-Lazily wrote:As far as the Paralysis Potion, I probably will have to change the cost, but I'd like to see more opinions on the balance first. Thanks for the critique.

As far as Poison of Paralysis goes it's fairly well balanced. from a game play perspective it'll probably only be used to shut down healers for a turn to get in that final blow, or to stun lock solo encounters. For that the price of [-4] seems fairly appropriate. Though admittedly i haven't gone through the players guide and seen if it combos to well with something. Final thought is that it seems good
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SilentBelle on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:13 am

SimpleZen wrote:
As far as Poison of Paralysis goes it's fairly well balanced. from a game play perspective it'll probably only be used to shut down healers for a turn to get in that final blow, or to stun lock solo encounters. For that the price of [-4] seems fairly appropriate. Though admittedly i haven't gone through the players guide and seen if it combos to well with something. Final thought is that it seems good

Well, it is a stunned (save ends) condition, which is probably the most powerful combat debuff condition, because the opponent is stunned for at least one turn (barring the interference from specific abilities), and then there's a 45% chance on each of the following turns that the opponent remains stunned. That alone can spell demise for an enemy where battles tend to take 5-7 turns. If a creature manages to lose two turns from the effect, then they miss out on probably 30% of the battle. They aren't even able to gain pips. I feel like [-4] is not enough for this possibility, but then again, I might be thinking too hard on this.

I think I'll need to run a play-test of the alchemist move-set and see how well it fares.

EDIT:
I thought up a new move that might be kind of fun to use:

[-3]You Broke My Flask – Immediate Interrupt
Triger: An enemy deals you damage with an attack
Effect: Roll 1d4 and use the indicated effect
1: The target is dealt 1d8 damage
2: Target takes 5 ongoing damage (Save Ends)
3: Target is Weakened (Save Ends)
4: Target is Blind (Save Ends)
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:49 am

SilentBelle wrote:
SimpleZen wrote:
As far as Poison of Paralysis goes it's fairly well balanced. from a game play perspective it'll probably only be used to shut down healers for a turn to get in that final blow, or to stun lock solo encounters. For that the price of [-4] seems fairly appropriate. Though admittedly i haven't gone through the players guide and seen if it combos to well with something. Final thought is that it seems good

Well, it is a stunned (save ends) condition, which is probably the most powerful combat debuff condition, because the opponent is stunned for at least one turn (barring the interference from specific abilities), and then there's a 45% chance on each of the following turns that the opponent remains stunned. That alone can spell demise for an enemy where battles tend to take 5-7 turns. If a creature manages to lose two turns from the effect, then they miss out on probably 30% of the battle. They aren't even able to gain pips. I feel like [-4] is not enough for this possibility, but then again, I might be thinking too hard on this.

I think I'll need to run a play-test of the alchemist move-set and see how well it fares.

EDIT:
I thought up a new move that might be kind of fun to use:

[-3]You Broke My Flask – Immediate Interrupt
Triger: An enemy deals you damage with an attack
Effect: Roll 1d4 and use the indicated effect
1: The target is dealt 1d8 damage
2: Target takes 5 ongoing damage (Save Ends)
3: Target is Weakened (Save Ends)
4: Target is Blind (Save Ends)

I love that ability. That is just awesome.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SilentBelle on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:53 am

Lapis-Lazily wrote:
I love that ability. That is just awesome.

I figure, the one thing that the Alchemist really needs is a way of getting Save ends conditions quickly onto the opponent, otherwise, half the time the opponent is going to just save against the effects and you would rarely get to use Expunge effectively in an offensive manner. Plus it's always fun to have a reaction ability.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:33 pm

Very nice. I like the idea behind, "you broke my flask" a lot.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:41 am

Reworked some stuff. Check out the first post for an updated list of powers.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SilentBelle on Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:37 am

Lapis-Lazily wrote:This is new move set idea I had while trying to make an alchemist character in the system. I realized there were a few scattered debuff powers and a few powers that could take advantage of it. I really liked the idea of combining these kinds of powers into a combo oriented class that chains and stacks debuffs upon opponents, then has damage dealing moves that do more damage if an enemy has debuffs. So, without further ado, I present some initial design ideas for the Alchemist move set.

[+3] Muddle the Mixture
You are weakened until the end of your next turn. This ability may not be used two turns in a row.

[+2] Acidic Addendum
Your next attack causes the target to suffer 5 ongoing damage(save ends), in addition to its other effects.

[+1] Extra Dosage
Deal 1d8 damage to target creature. Increase this damage to 1d12 if the creature is suffering from a save-ends condition.

[-2] Splash it in Their Eyes
Target creature is blinded. (save ends)

[-3] Expunge
Deal Xd10 damage to target creature where X is equal to the number of save-ends conditions it is currently suffering from. Remove all save-ends conditions from the target

[-3] You Broke My Flask – Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: An enemy deals you damage with an attack
Effect: Roll 1d4 and use the indicated effect
1: The target is dealt 1d8 damage
2: Target takes 5 ongoing damage (Save Ends)
3: Target is Weakened (Save Ends)
4: Target is Blind (Save Ends)

[-4] Everlasting Misery – Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An enemy saves against a condition
The target fails the triggering save.

[-7] Acid Rain
Deal 1d12 damage to all enemies. All enemies suffering from save-ends conditions take an additional 1d12 damage. All enemies damaged by this attack suffer 1d8 ongoing damage. (save ends)

[-8] Cocktail of Misfortune
Target creature is stunned, weakened, and suffers vulnerability 5.(save ends) Each condition is saved against separately.

That's what I have so far. A number of the names are temporary because I was having trouble naming them, and there are going to be some obvious balance issues, but that's why I'm throwing it to you guys. I really appreciate any feedback I get.

Edit: Reworked some abilities for balance, added some new ones, and removed some others. As always, advice is appreciated.

Hmm, with Muddle the Mixture, I thought it worked better at 4 pips... Since it's at three, then make it weaken an enemy as well or do something to the enemy. When comparing it to other [+3] pip moves, it's quite underpowered. As an alchemist style player I would be far more inclined to take:
[+3] Draw Blood
Target creature suffers 1 ongoing damage (save ends)
I truly think that that ability was really quite well balanced before.

Another critique: I think that Everlasting Misery is an awesome move, great job reworking it; however it should probably cost [-2], after all it only affects one of their (save ends) conditions.

As for the Cocktail of Misfortune, I'd suggest changing the stun (save ends) to blind (save ends). This way I feel that all the conditions are relatively equivalent to each other. Though the move does no damage, so the cost could then be changed to [-6]. I'm still a little unsure about this suggestion though. I'd like to hear some other people's opinions.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Videocrazy on Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:07 pm

I can't really see anything wrong with the new talents, myself.

Hmm, with Muddle the Mixture, I thought it worked better at 4 pips... Since it's at three, then make it weaken an enemy as well or do something to the enemy. When comparing it to other [+3] pip moves, it's quite underpowered. As an alchemist style player I would be far more inclined to take:
[+3] Draw Blood
Target creature suffers 1 ongoing damage (save ends)
I truly think that that ability was really quite well balanced before.

It's worth noting that Supercharge is a +3, which does 1d8 to you, and 1d10 to an enemy if you win a coin flip.

Another critique: I think that Everlasting Misery is an awesome move, great job reworking it; however it should probably cost [-2], after all it only affects one of their (save ends) conditions.

Actually, normally a saving throw saves against all conditions at once. That's why Cocktail of Misfortune has each effect saved against separately.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:15 pm

1) Muddle the Mixture is both too good at +4 PiPs and too weak at +3 PiPs.

2) Everlasting Misery would be way too good at 2 PiPs, players could easily and perpetually lock enemies under Perma-Stun and such. Forcing the enemy to auto-fail a saving throw is insanely good and begging to be broken.

Videocrazy wrote:
Actually, normally a saving throw saves against all conditions at once. That's why Cocktail of Misfortune has each effect saved against separately.

Actually, creatures save against all effects individually. If one effect blinds a creature and another effect weakens and adds vulnerability to the creature... The creature rolls a saving throw for Blind and a separate one for the weaken-and-vulnerable.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Videocrazy on Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:50 pm

Actually, creatures save against all effects individually. If one effect blinds a creature and another effect weakens and adds vulnerability to the creature... The creature rolls a saving throw for Blind and a separate one for the weaken-and-vulnerable.

Ooh. I interpreted things like "save ends all" as saying that a saving throw makes a save for everything, period.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SilentBelle on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:42 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:1) Muddle the Mixture is both too good at +4 PiPs and too weak at +3 PiPs.

2) Everlasting Misery would be way too good at 2 PiPs, players could easily and perpetually lock enemies under Perma-Stun and such. Forcing the enemy to auto-fail a saving throw is insanely good and begging to be broken.

Videocrazy wrote:
Actually, normally a saving throw saves against all conditions at once. That's why Cocktail of Misfortune has each effect saved against separately.

Actually, creatures save against all effects individually. If one effect blinds a creature and another effect weakens and adds vulnerability to the creature... The creature rolls a saving throw for Blind and a separate one for the weaken-and-vulnerable.

Yeah, I suppose you're right about the negating a (save ends) condition being quite broken. The problem with the move being that certain (save ends) conditions are considerably stronger than others, so it's very tough to put a pip cost to it.

Hmm, how's this then.

[-3] A More Potent Poison - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - Target enemy saves against a condition
The condition is no longer (save ends) and instead lasts until the end of the target's next turn.

I know it doesn't let the (save ends) condition stay, so it doesn't help expunge keep it's effectiveness, but at least this way it can't be abused repeatedly.

Edit: A new question just came to me as I was looking at the Acid Rain talent. If a move does ongoing 1d8 damage, do you roll once when you use the ability to decide how much ongoing damage it does, or do you roll 1d8 every time at the beginning of the enemy's turn? Personally, I think it's far easier to just roll once to determine the ongoing damage, and honestly I'm fairly certain that's how it should play out, but it's not exactly clear. I wonder if this is why the moves that added bonus damage to allies were changed to static numbers when they used to be die roll bonuses, or was it just to negate the excessive use of special moves?.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:38 pm

[+2] Muddle the Mixture
You and target enemy are weakened until the end of your next turn. When you use this ability flip a coin. If you win the flip, you gain an additional 2 PiPs.

How's this for Muddle the mixture?
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  SilentBelle on Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:21 pm

Lapis-Lazily wrote:[+2] Muddle the Mixture
You and target enemy are weakened until the end of your next turn. When you use this ability flip a coin. If you win the flip, you gain an additional 2 PiPs.

How's this for Muddle the mixture?

Actually, that is a pretty good compromise. However, you might want to change it to 1 pip on winning a flip. After all if you use this against a solo monster, it's gonna be very effective.
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Re: The Alchemist Move Set

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:27 am

hmm, you may be right... not sure though.
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