New Special Moves - Designs needed!

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New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:58 pm

With the upcoming combat revamp, we're redoing special moves. We're looking for a bunch of cool designs for new special moves to add - based on the following.

New Math
From now on...

An 8 crit will be worth 8 damage.
A 10 crit will be worth 12.5 damage.
A 12 crit will be worth 18 damage. 

These numbers need to be followed, so that our combat talents can calculate the value of rolling dice. When suggesting your ideas, keep them as close to this balance as you can. However, don't worry about getting it exact if you're not entirely sure how to balance something - we'd much rather see your cool idea and change the numbers later to make it balanced. 

Also, don't feel constrained by the old special moves. Feel free to get seriously creative. Here are two of the new concepts we're already exploring.

1) A special move that gives you access to several defender-based interrupts simply by having the move. However, you can't use the interrupts without spending defender tokens - which you gain when you trigger your special move (different crits give you different amounts of tokens). This way you can save up your crit's value for when you really need it, and you have a choice of which move you'd like to spend your crit on (as the tokens can be spent on either of the move's talents).

2) A special move that comes with a table of 10 effects. When you trigger your 8 crit, you roll twice on the table and use both results. Triggering your 10 crit has you roll 3 times and your 12 crit has you roll 4 times.


Of course, we're also going to be using classic crit designs - but feel free to get seriously creative.

Looking forward to your ideas,

Dan


Last edited by Pingcode on Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:50 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Unstickying)

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Lapis-Lazily on Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:32 pm

Here are some things to keep in mind for balancing crits:
Healing is Worth 1.5x Damage

Rolling dice is worth the following amounts of damage:
d4: 2.5 damage
d6: 3.5 damage
d8: 5.5 damage
d10: 6.75 damage
d12: 8 damage
d20: 10.5
Explanation of Damage:
Dice Damage
We calculate the damage for attacks based on averages of dice. Each die is worth damage equal to the Highest possible result added to the lowest possible result and divided by 2. So each dice is worth this much for the purposes of our calculations:

d4: 2.5 damage
d6: 3.5 damage
d8: 5.5 damage
d10: 6.75 damage
d12: 8 damage
d20: 10.5

It’s pretty self-explanatory really, but wait. Why do d8’s d10’, d12’s, and d20’s approximate to more damage than the actual average? After all, the average damage for a d10 should be 5.5, and the others should also be lower. The reason for this has to do with...

Crit Balancing and the Crit Tax
In this system, since players don’t have to roll to hit, players crit when they roll an 8 on a d8, a 10 on a d10, or a 12 on a d12. Crits are broken up based on the die rolled and follow this basic balance guideline:

d8: A d8 crit is worth 8 damage.
d10: A d10 crit is worth 12.5 damage.
d12: A d12 crit is worth 18 damage.

These crit values directly factor in to the estimations for average damage of dice that we use in our calculations. Take the d12 crit for example. When a player rolls a 12, they get an additional 18 damage on top of the twelve they just rolled, but a player will only roll a twelve statistically 1/12 times they roll the d12. So, on average, rolling a d12 with crits will give you about 18 x 1/12 or 18/12 damage. 18/12 = 1.5. Thus, 1.5 is added to the average damage of a d12 for the purposes of damage calculations for a total 8 damage on average from a d12. Similar calculations can be used to explain the others, but in general, a d8 is worth 1 more damage than average, a d10 is worth 1.25 more damage than average, and a d12 is worth 1.5 more damage than average.

Note: Some powers let you roll d20’s and activate all three crits if you roll a twenty. This only happens on rare occasions in special powers, almost all of which should be limited use, like this hypothetical item ability:

[-3] Hulk Smash! - Standard Attack
You must expend a minor action to activate this combat talent. If you do, deal 2d20 damage to target creature. If you roll a 20 on your d20, you may activate all three of your Special Move Features.

In this case, the d20 is valued at 12.5 damage rather than 10.5 since it has a 1/20 chance of activating all three crits. To understand why, first add the damage values of all the crits together, which totals to 8+ 12.5 + 18 = 38.5. Since you have a 1/20 chance to activate all the crits at once when you roll a d20, multiply the values together for 38.5 x 1/20 = 1.925 damage gained on average for being able to crit. For ease of math, and since 1.925 is so close to 2, we just round it up to 2 and add that to the average damage value of the d20 to get 10.5 + 2 = 12.5.

Healing is Worth 1.5x Damage
Per Pip, healing talents should heal 1.5 times as much hp as a similarly costed damage talent would deal. For example, a [+2] healing talent should heal 1.5(Multiplier) x 3.5(Average damage for a [+2]) = 5.25 HP. Technically, healing is a separate factor than damage. They really don’t compare directly since the strength of healing is actually based on the strength of the monsters you fight rather than the strength of your own combat talents. So why do we calculate it as 1.5x as effective as damage for the cost? The reason is simple; healing doesn’t feel as good as damaging. To incentivize players to take healing talents, we make them more cost effective so players can feel stronger when using them. This goes a long way to helping people want to take on a support role more often.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Paper Shadow on Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:38 pm

What about things like non-damaging status conditions? Where do they fit in?

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:41 pm

Now aint *that* a can of worms. It's actually the last thing we're working on in combat balance - getting hard numbers for all of them.

In general, don't worry *too* much about the balance for those right now, just guesstimate. We can fix them later and will eventually provide all the information on everything. We just need cool ideas and designs right now.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:01 pm

Hmmmmm.... I like that no.1 idea. Lets see what I can do...

Guardian's Valor.

[0] Adrenaline Burst - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - An Ally is targeted for an attack while you have one or more adrenaline mark's
Effect - Consume a Adrenaline Mark, the attack hits you instead.

d8: Gain 2 Adrenaline Mark's.
d10: Gain 3 Adrenaline Mark's
d12: Gain 5 Adrenaline Mark's

Samurai's Oath

[0] Samuari's Wrath - Reaction Attack
Trigger – An enemy damages one of your allies with an attack while you have one or more adrenaline mark's
Effect - Consume a Adrenaline Mark, Deal 1d12 damage to the triggering enemy.

d8: Gain 2 Adrenaline Mark's.
d10: Gain 3 Adrenaline Mark's
d12: Gain 5 Adrenaline Mark's

Thoughts?
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:02 pm

Loss of Life = ? damage
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:05 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Hmmmmm.... I like that no.1 idea. Lets see what I can do...

Guardian's Valor.

[0] Adrenaline Burst - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - An Ally is targeted for an attack while you have one or more adrenaline mark's
Effect - Consume a Adrenaline Mark, the attack hits you instead.

d8: Gain 2 Adrenaline Mark's.
d10: Gain 3 Adrenaline Mark's
d12: Gain 5 Adrenaline Mark's

Samurai's Oath

[0] Samuari's Wrath - Reaction Attack
Trigger – An enemy damages one of your allies with an attack while you have  one or more adrenaline mark's
Effect - Consume a Adrenaline Mark, Deal 1d12 damage to the triggering enemy.

d8: Gain 2 Adrenaline Mark's.
d10: Gain 3 Adrenaline Mark's
d12: Gain 5 Adrenaline Mark's

Thoughts?
Neat idea, but just getting marks out of a crit... Is totally meh reaction, I'd suggest having it do something more then just gaining marks to spend. Also a problem I see with getting crit effects that can be spent later, you'd have to spend a good deal into rolling as many crits as possible asap, just to get such effects to use. But I do like the idea that having the "marks" all mean the same, allowing for possible ways to gain marks in other ways somehow. That could be cool.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:05 pm

Lose life=damage, currently. This may change, since vulnerability will become more scarce/harder to activate, but it will probably stay constant.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:20 pm

You do have a point there Xel... Hmmm.... lets see what I can do...

Oath of the Guardian:

[0] Oath of Protection - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack while you have a Oath Mark
Effect - The triggering attack hits you instead, and a Oath Mark is consumed

[0] Oath of Sacrifice - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attack while you have Oath Marks equal to the number of allies hit
Effect - The attack hits only you instead, for each ally the would of been hit, an Oath Mark is consumed

8: You gain resist 2 until the end of your next turn and target enemy must attack you on its next turn. You also gain 2 Oath Marks
10: Up to one target ally cannot be attacked until the end of your next turn. You also gain 3 Oath Marks
12: Halve all damage target ally takes for the rest of the battle. You also gain 4 Oath Marks

Samurai's Wrath:

[0] Wrath of the Blade - Reaction Attack
Trigger – An enemy damages one of your allies with an attack while you have an Wrath Mark
Effect – Deal 1d12 damage to the triggering enemy and a Wrath Mark is consumed

[0] Wrath of the Spirit - Reaction Attack
Trigger – An enemy damages two or more of your allies with an attack while you have Wrath Marks equal to the number of allies hit
Effect – Deal Xd8 damage to the triggering enemy, where X equals the amount of allies hit and X Wrath Marks are consumed

8: Until the end of your next turn, when an enemy damages one of your allies with an attack, you deal 1d4 damage to them. You also gain 2 Wrath Marks
10: Until the end of your next turn, whenever you damage an enemy using a Reaction Attack, you gain a Wrath Mark. You also gain 3 Wrath Marks
12: Until the end of your next turn, an enemy that attack an ally is weakened (save ends). You also gain 5 Wrath Marks

Hunter's Prey:

[0] Find Opening - Reaction Utility
Trigger - You attack an enemy with resist while you have a Hunter's Mark
Effect - The attack ignores the enemies resistance and consumes a Hunter's Mark

[0] Focus Target - Free Utility
Choose a creature. That creature becomes your Focus until the end of the battle or until you use this talent again. Once per round, when you make an attack against that creature, you may have that attack deal +1d8 damage to that creature and consume a Hunter's Mark

8: Choose target creature. That creature becomes your “Mark” until the end of the encounter or until you fall unconscious. Your mark has vulnerability 2 against your attacks. You gain 2 Hunter's Mark.
10: Chose two target creatures. Your next attacks against them ignore resistance and deal an extra 1d8 damage. You gain 3 Hunter's Mark.
12: Chose target creature. Your next attack against them ignores resistance and does double damage. You gain 4 Hunter's Mark


Last edited by Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:47 pm

If I'm reading it correctly, does Oath of Sacrifice nullify most of an AoE? That is, multiple people would be hit, but you're only hit once? Because as it is, you can use Oath of Protection to redirect an AoE towards you multiple times, but that would make Oath of Sacrifice a much more powerful ability.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:49 pm

Oath of Protection works like Defender. It can only redirect a single-target attack.

And yes, Oath of Sacrifice does currently nullify most of the AoE
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:54 pm

Now your just upgrading the old Knight's Presence Fury.... To possible OP levels I'd agrue. And what I had meant was more that there being some type of "marks" mechanic added to the system that factors into crits, maybe... But that's a non-issue for the moment. I say it's better to keep the Crit-Talent to be only one per crit type. Or have there be a passive talent that can allow one to gain a Mark involved with the system. Or something... I'm not totally sure what my mind's really feeling on this. Just the idea of a Crit-Talent while cool, I perfer having some way that doesn't relay on the player's build to fully gain nothing but crits to be able to use it. Or even trying to rely on it. Just having other options is always a good idea in my opinion. Other then the pure min-maxed to insanity type of thing.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:55 pm

I actually asked two days ago, Defender can redirect an AoE to strike you instead of an ally, even if you're already being targetted by it. You just get hit by multiple copies of the same attack (If the whole party gets attacked, and you use defender twice, you would get hit by the AoE three times).

On the subject of the other effects, the d12 is definitely too powerful. That was one of the most powerful crits of the old set, and it definitely needed to be weakened. Here's the WIP version of Knight's Presence:

Knight’s Presence
You gain access to the following combat talent:

[0] Defender - Interrupt Utility
You must spend 1 defender token to use this talent.
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Effect - The triggering attack hits you instead.

8: You gain 7 temporary HP. You also gain 2 defender tokens.
10: You gain resist 1 until the end of your next turn and 8 temporary HP. If you have resist from another source, increase that resist by 1 until the end of your next turn. You also gain 2 defender tokens.
12: You gain resist 2 until the end of your next turn and 10 temporary HP. If you already have resist, increase it by 2 until the end of your next turn instead. You also gain 2 defender tokens.

The oath flavoring is definitely cool, We can definitely use that. How does it look?

EDIT: The biggest problem with fueling multiple moves with the same "token" is that each move has to be equal in strength, or the token can't be given a balanced cost (Well, it can, but it will be more expensive than it should be). It's also much easier to keep track of tokens if you can just say "okay, I have 3 free uses of Defender left right now," because the tokens are synonymous with a use of the move.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:59 pm

... Very helpful feedback Xel. So VERY helpful.

That looks underpowered to me Sun. Honestly, I think with a bit of tweaking, the Oath of Sacrifice will work well. As for what you gain as well as the marks... well, just giving you resist and temporary hit points doesn't exactly excite me in anyway, shape of form...

Besides, we aren't here to discuss the numbers remember? Its the concepts we are here to give

Anyway, I edited the post so it now has a second special move in it.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:01 pm

sunbeam wrote:EDIT: The biggest problem with fueling multiple moves with the same "token" is that each move has to be equal in strength, or the token can't be given a balanced cost (Well, it can, but it will be more expensive than it should be).
What's the issue with having those moves cost varying amounts of tokens? Like (and this is bad design, just an example).

[0] Hit Em - Free Utility
Spend 2 example tokens. Deal 10 damage to target creature.

[0] Hit Em Harder - Free Utility
Spend 3 example tokens. Deal 15 damage to target creature.


The abilities don't need to be exactly the same in power, while the token can be the same cost.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:09 pm

Alright, I needed the phrase "equal per token" in there. I meant for something like Fury's setup, where one move was markedly more powerful than another (nullifying damage is worth an awful lot more than redirecting it. If 1 token is worth 1 use of defender, then an AoE nullifier would be worth at least 3 tokens, probably more). This means that the crit has to give out enough tokens to allow the use of that super move, which severely detracts from what the rest of the crit can do.

Also, Fury, what would excite you on a protector crit? I was thinking of working with Paper Shadow's Samurai ideas and your recent suggestions to make more of a "punisher" crit that damages enemies who attack your allies, instead of protecting them. Is that more to your style?
EDIT:Um, I just read wrath of the spirit, and if I'm reading it correctly, isn't it more effective to just activate wrath of the blade repeatedly? 1 results in Xd8 damage, and 1 results in Xd12 damage. Am I missing something? Each ally being damaged is a separate trigger, so there's no reason you can't activate wrath of the blade repeatedly for an AoE.


Last edited by sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:17 pm

sunbeam wrote:Also, Fury, what would excite you on a protector crit? I was thinking of working with Paper Shadow's Samurai ideas and your recent suggestions to make more of a "punisher" crit that damages enemies who attack your allies, instead of protecting them. Is that more to your style?
A protector crit wouldn't just buff my defences, but help focus the enemies onto me and buff my allies defences. Like how the current Knights presence does.

The punisher crit is a good idea as well, and as for being 'more to my style'... Depends on the character. So I would like both.

And tbh, I was using Paper Shadow's Samuari ideas for my punisher crit as well... Didn't like the THP gain though.

Oh and I've edited a third talent into now. This one being an assassin based crit
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:30 pm

Forcing enemies to attack you is a serious pain in this system, and it's largely what the marks were for. Buffing an ally's defenses could definitely be done, but if the crit gets stretched too thin, then none of the abilities look cool. From my perspective, if the goal is to center all the damage on you, then you need to be as tanky as possible to that you don't die. Maybe some of the abilities can buff your allies, and some of them can buff you?
EDIT: Actually, what if we just made another crit for people who wanted to make their allies invincible? Your tokens could activate Blink whenever an ally was targeted.

The Assassin's crit is a cool idea, but there are a few odd bits to it. First off, if Focus Target is a free action, then you don't actually have a target. You can switch it to whoever you want whenever you want. Maybe if we could limit it to a 1/round thing? That way you have some incentive to actually focus on attacking one guy. Find Opening is definitely weaker than Focus Target (+1d8 damage is usually enough to overcome resist), and it might be smoother to just make them one move. Double damage is still pretty much impossible to balance, sadly, but I'm sure we could come up with something else cool. Cool ideas, though. I like the idea of being able to do extra damage to one guy, and I have been looking for something to fill the gap left by the old Assassin's Gambit.


Last edited by sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:31 pm

It's worth noting that if you make yourself impervious to damage, enemies will not attack you. A defender needs to be able to draw fire and survive it too.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:35 pm

Again, that's what the Defender Tokens are for. You make yourself impregnable, then point everything towards yourself forcefully.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:37 pm

Exactly. I'm simply pointing out the error of doing all of one or all the other.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:40 pm

... I guess having two crits. One that buffs your allies defenses, and another that focuses the enemy on your does make more sense.

And for the later, having the crit also buffing your defences does work... I just hope there's a more creative way than simple 'X Resist and X THP'

Updated special moves:

Samurai's Wrath:

[0] Wrath of the Blade - Reaction Attack
Trigger – An enemy damages one of your allies with an attack while you have an Wrath Mark
Effect – Deal 1d12 damage to the triggering enemy and a Wrath Mark is consumed

[0] Wrath of the Spirit - Reaction Attack
Trigger – An enemy knocks an ally unconscious while you have an Wrath Mark
Effect – Deal 2d12 damage to the triggering enemy, and a Wrath Mark is consumed

8: Until the end of your next turn, when an enemy damages one of your allies with an attack, you deal 1d4 damage to them. You also gain 2 Wrath Marks
10: Until the end of your next turn, whenever you damage an enemy using a Reaction Attack, you gain a Wrath Mark. You also gain 3 Wrath Marks
12: Until the end of your next turn, an enemy that attack an ally is weakened (save ends). You also gain 5 Wrath Marks

Hunter's Prey:

[0] Focus Target - Free Utility
Once per turn, you can hoose a creature. That creature becomes your Focus until the end of the battle or until you use this talent again. Once per round, when you make an attack against that creature, you may have that attack ignore resistance, deal +1d8 damage to that creature and consume a Hunter's Mark

8: Choose target creature. That creature becomes your “Mark” until the end of the encounter or until you fall unconscious. Your mark has vulnerability 2 against your attacks. You gain 2 Hunter's Mark.
10: Chose two target creatures. Your next attacks against them ignore resistance and deal an extra 1d8 damage. You gain 3 Hunter's Mark.
12: Chose target creature. Your next attack against them ignores resistance and does double damage. You gain 4 Hunter's Mark
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:43 pm

Do you have any other ways to make someone more bulky? I'll use whatever tools I'm given. It's just that last I checked, when you made a character that you wanted to survive, you got a good source of resist and grabbed temp HP whenever you possibly could.

Also, the "focus" move still has the problem of being a free utility. what if it worked like this:
At the start of each turn, Choose a creature. That creature is your Prey until the start of your next turn.
[0] Hunting Strike - Interrupt Utility
You must expend one Hunter token to use this attack.
Trigger:You make an attack that only targets your Prey.
Trigger: That attack does an additional 1d8 damage. (and possibly ignores resist. I just haven't set a cost to that yet.)
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:51 pm

sunbeam wrote:Do you have any other ways to make someone more bulky? I'll use whatever tools I'm given. It's just that last I checked, when you made a character that you wanted to survive, you got a good source of resist and grabbed temp HP whenever you possibly could.
Regeneration and healing work as well.

sunbeam wrote:Also, the "focus" move still has the problem of being a free utility.
How? You can only do it once per turn. Who cares if its a free utility?
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:54 pm

Perosnally what bugs me and what I belive is why I'm not giving great feedback is because I'm fearful to what Crit-Talents will do the metagame of the combat system. And in my opinion the only thing it will do is make critfisher builds what will feel like the only way to get the best out of the crit-talent. It's a can of worms that might not work the way you think it will. While I do personally love the idea of this "Token" mechanic (It's basically the craft talent, but can be used for more then one talent, which is cool)... Paring it up with Crits, might not be the way to work it, because they might make such talents appear too strong, or make people feel the only way to work them is with critfisher type builds.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

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