New Special Moves - Designs needed!

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:22 pm

Wow. I'd like to apologize. I remembered that you suggested that Crashing Charge should pierce resist+etc. but I forgot that your idea was to apply it to your own talents. That makes more sense and is easier to build. I'm sorry for wasting time going in the complete wrong direction. Smashing Charge is definitely a possiblity, as soon as I make damage equivalents for ignoring resist+making something uncounterable, and get those numbers ok'd. That is a much cooler idea than I thought, and could definitely stand alone.

Here's my next question for the crit, then: How do we make the other effects of the crit memorable? What sort of style goes with gaining the opportunity to make an unstoppable strike?
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Pingcode on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:38 am

Well having gone over it a reflavouring might work better:

Sniper's Shot
Sometimes you just want to reach out and touch somepony. From very far away. With expert precision you leave your target no recourse to your attacks, punching through shield and spell like tissue paper. Sniper's Shot - for those moments you want to be sure.

Gain the following talent:
[0] Called Shot* - Interrupt Utility
Trigger: You make an attack and have at least one momentum token
Lose 1 momentum token. The triggering attack ignores resist, and it may trigger no other traits or talents, nor be affected by them.

8: Gain 1 momentum token
10: Gain 1 momentum token and target creature loses 2d4hp. This damage triggers no traits or talents, nor is it affected by them.
12: Gain 1 momentum token and target creature loses 3d6hp. This damage triggers no traits or talents, nor is it affected by them.

*Might be something called this already. Didn't check.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:47 am

I really like that special move. When combined with something like a Vorpal Sword build... it can be powerful. Very, powerful.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:25 pm

Do we want it to be "triggers no traits or talents" or "triggers no enemy traits or talents?" The second one lets you gain damage from your traits and your items and possibly lets allies buff you.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:27 pm

sunbeam wrote:Do we want it to be "triggers no traits or talents" or "triggers no enemy traits or talents?" The second one lets you gain damage from your traits and your items and possibly lets allies buff you.
I think "Triggers no traits or talents" is more balanced, this way the special at least keeps from feeling like a limiter to GMs building monsters. Cause there is a drawback to the thing.... But that's my opinion. Then again, having it be that way might equally slow down the game from people being unsure what is untriggerable or not. It's a toss up overall. (hopes some other people help express a stronger opinion one way or another... I'm sure to support this thing being either way myself)
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:03 pm

Keep in mind that as no numbers have been set for this yet, "balance" is very relative. A move that prevents the enemy from countering you while allowing you to use your tricks will just cost more than one that shuts out everything.
It's also worth noting that you may not be able to use items like the Reloaders or the overloaders if you can't trigger traits or talents, which would seriously interfere with nuke builds, which I believe is one of the groups that would find this special move appealing.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Pingcode on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:28 pm

In all honesty even without the ability to take advantage of things like overloader and reloader it strikes me as pretty valuable. After all, it clears possibly the greatest risk in using a nuke - that the enemy will pull out some defence that severely limits, negates, or redirects your attack.

Allowing riders to get carried along with it is a risky gamble, because it means you could considerably amplify the effects of your attack while still guaranteeing passage.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 pm

But I agure that having the crit lock out everything other then the Crit's effects is more balanced becuase that way, the drawback doesn't feel like the GM might risk and worry about the that team's character getting too many crits to just make it unfair. Or the GM feels they CAN'T build any effects that counter or react to player attacks becuase of that one special. Making them maybe even ban it outright. Which is something I"d personally hope to avoid. Cause the desine idea of "Oh the GM can ban it if they don't like it" idea isn't the best for a system that is already very taxing and hard on a GM. I mean building the beasties is the hardest challange for the system. A crit that can just totally lock out some unlucky monsters that are built like that, could be really harmful.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:47 pm

I agree. The cost of by passing any of the enemies defences is have the attack only be the talent and other else is a fair exchange to me.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:46 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:But I agure that having the crit lock out everything other then the Crit's effects is more balanced becuase that way, the drawback doesn't feel like the GM  might risk and worry about the that team's character getting too many crits to just make it unfair. Or the GM feels they CAN'T build any effects that counter or react to player attacks becuase of that one special. Making them maybe even ban it outright. Which is something I"d personally hope to avoid. Cause the desine idea of "Oh the GM can ban it if they don't like it" idea isn't the best for a system that is already very taxing and hard on a GM. I mean building the beasties is the hardest challange for the system. A crit that can just totally lock out some unlucky monsters that are built like that, could be really harmful.
I'd agree with that if this were something as consistent as a combat talent or a trait (and I don't think any trait or item should grant that ability). But for something like a crit, that arbitrarily grants you a certain bonus, that you can't plan for? As a DM, I'd be hoping that my nuke character activated this. It would be badass to bypass all the enemy's defenses once or twice a battle. But if you make the crit non-interactable with anything, that makes the counter more of a detriment in most situations (Since plenty of enemies just have shovelfuls of extra HP instead of resist), and with an already situational ability, cutting down on its combo potential is a jarring loss of appeal/utility, which is always bad, but especially for a crit whose flagship ability is very situational.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Philadelphus on Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:10 am

sunbeam wrote:So really, this setup would deprecate the damage of every die you rolled (except for d8s). But if you're willing to do that for added variety, I see no reason to stop you. I'm leaning towards the first one, since the second provides almost no drawbacks.
Can I put you in charge of figuring out wording for this, so that it can work for every crit (say, if you chose a knight's presence crit and needed to use the oath tokens to activate defender, you would specify that you gain that talent)? I think this would go best at the very bottom of the special move section, as a sort of sidebar, where we explain that this setup will be weaker, but allows for unique crit combinations. Can you tinker with that? I think it's definitely an idea that should be introduced.
Alright, here's a first stab. Suggestions welcome.

Synthesis Special:
This special move is for advanced players who want to mix and match their own special move, and is not recommended for new players. When you take this special move, you may choose parts from other special moves for each of your dice. If the special move you are choosing from grants any special features, such as an interrupt move that can only be triggered by using something given by that special move, you gain that feature as well.

d8: Choose a d8 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
d10: Choose a d8 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
d12: Choose a d10 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:49 pm

Philadelphus wrote:
sunbeam wrote:So really, this setup would deprecate the damage of every die you rolled (except for d8s). But if you're willing to do that for added variety, I see no reason to stop you. I'm leaning towards the first one, since the second provides almost no drawbacks.
Can I put you in charge of figuring out wording for this, so that it can work for every crit (say, if you chose a knight's presence crit and needed to use the oath tokens to activate defender, you would specify that you gain that talent)? I think this would go best at the very bottom of the special move section, as a sort of sidebar, where we explain that this setup will be weaker, but allows for unique crit combinations. Can you tinker with that? I think it's definitely an idea that should be introduced.
Alright, here's a first stab. Suggestions welcome.

Synthesis Special:
This special move is for advanced players who want to mix and match their own special move, and is not recommended for new players. When you take this special move, you may choose parts from other special moves for each of your dice. If the special move you are choosing from grants any special features, such as an interrupt move that can only be triggered by using something given by that special move, you gain that feature as well.

d8: Choose a d8 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
d10: Choose a d8 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
d12: Choose a d10 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
Question: How would this wording work with a special move like Blood Baron, where you lose HP each time you activate a crit. Mathematically, only the Blood Baron bit should require you to lose life. There should probably be some sort of clause stating that you only lose HP when activating that particular special move. Then we could just add more clauses if more specials like that show up. Otherwise, it generally looks good.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Philadelphus on Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:26 am

sunbeam wrote:
Philadelphus wrote:Synthesis Special:
This special move is for advanced players who want to mix and match their own special move, and is not recommended for new players. When you take this special move, you may choose parts from other special moves for each of your dice. If the special move you are choosing from grants any special features, such as an interrupt move that can only be triggered by using something given by that special move, you gain that feature as well.

d8: Choose a d8 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
d10: Choose a d8 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
d12: Choose a d10 move from another special move. That move replaces this one.
Question: How would this wording work with a special move like Blood Baron, where you lose HP each time you activate a crit. Mathematically, only the Blood Baron bit should require you to lose life. There should probably be some sort of clause stating that you only lose HP when activating that particular special move. Then we could just add more clauses if more specials like that show up. Otherwise, it generally looks good.
Possible additional clarifying sentence:

"If you take one or more moves from another special move that causes something to happen when that move triggers – such as losing 5 HP whenever you trigger a move in the Blood Baron special move – only triggering those moves causes the effect to happen. So if you took the Blood Baron d8 move, rolling an 8 on a d8 would cause you to lose 5 HP. Rolling a 10 on a d10 would not (unless you also took the d10 move)."

Perhaps have the last sentence in a side-comment.

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:39 am

So, who remembers this thread? Anyways, with the combat revamp getting mixed into the entire system reboot, these special moves will never see the light of day as an official supplement. (at least, not for this edition of Pony Tales...) But that doesn't mean you all shouldn't have them. So I compiled all the completed and balanced special moves into one document, and now I'm offering that document to you.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H2CHleYNhB622r5fCtfspiNtKB-srNPwCwYBBlIHfV8/edit

Some of these are weaker than their originals, and some are much cooler, in my opinion. There are several new special moves, and all of them have been redesigned. A handful, like Wild Power and Knight's Presence, are completely different. Obviously, you can use as much or as little of this table as you please. Enjoy!
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  ZamuelNow on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:29 pm

I think the document as a whole is great but I think the absolute best ones are Samurai’s Strike and the revamped Knight’s Presence. The reason is that they give tanks far more build flexibility by opening up more options.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:01 am

... Did you balance them yourself Sunbeam or something? Because Knight's Presence and Samuari Strike (through not under those names) are the two talents I mainly worked on, but my final form and that final form are GREATLY different.

The Knight's Presence is a bit boring in that the ONLY difference between the crits is the amount of resist and THP you get. Compared to the original, I think its effects could be given a bit more diveristy while still keeping the Token mechanic.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:43 pm

Yes, I balanced these myself. That was my job when the combat revamp was just a combat revamp and not a system overhaul. The ones that were suggested in here strained the limits of my ability to quantify this system for balance purposes, so I had to take the theme that was suggested and fit in whatever I could that fit that theme.

Yeah, I'm not particularly happy with how Knight's Presence feels either. Resist and the oath tokens take up very large chunks of damage, making it a little clunky to manipulate the numbers. Keep in mind that Oath of Sacrifice you suggested is doable with Oath of Protection, since you can just re-target the attack multiple times (and if this is wrong, I can edit it so that it is. It's supposed to be doable). I just changed the d12 to Regeneration, and honestly I'm not certain why I didn't do that earlier. It definitely helps make the progression of the set more visible, I think.

Samurai's strike looks completely different because your Wrath of the Samurai was ludicrously overpowered for a special move. Wrath of the Spirit was worth 20+ damage (a d12 crit is worth 18 damage), and only costs one Wrath Mark (I do think this would make a kickass [-4] reaction combat talent, though. I'll poke the devs), while a wrath mark is otherwise worth 8 damge. The d10 gave you infinite wrath marks, which is at least worthy of being the d12, and the damage varies pretty much directly with the number of enemies/number of attacks, which makes the potential damage extremely variable. For example, on your turn of infinite wrath marks, because you start with 1, if you're fighting a troupe of minions, you can kill every minion that doesn't attack you. Heck, if you're fighting a boss that uses an AoE, you can make a good case for using Wrath of the Blade, getting a wrath mark, using that wrath mark in reaction to another ally getting hurt, and so on. Basically, it's just too abusable. So I tried to keep with The Punisher mentality while reigning in what is still the second or third most-damaging special move so that you can't steamroll people too easily.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  ZamuelNow on Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:53 pm

By no means was I trying to discredit the various people who's input was given. A lot of good ideas were presented and I'm just glad the numbers got adjusted to being more workable. A few things in the old special system were just bad, like Healer's Grace.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  sunbeam on Mon May 05, 2014 7:33 pm

The Wild Power special move shared its name with the Wild Power combat talent. It's name has been changed to Wild Energy.
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Derpy_Dragon on Sun May 25, 2014 5:47 pm

Well, lets see how far outside the box (or inside the chimney) we can go.
How about special moves that goes off on rolling ones or maybe uses all dice rolls?

Unlucky or I Just Don't Know What Went Wrong
All the following trigger on rolling a natural 1 on the shown dice.

d4 or d6: 1 Random enemy loses 1 life.
d8 or d10: 1 Random enemy is dazed and confused until the end of your next turn. A creature suffering confusion flips a coin when it attacks. If it loses the flip the attack targets one of your enemies at random instead.
d12 or d20: 1 Random enemy is stunned, gains vulnerability 4, and 4 ongoing damage.(save ends all)

I admit that having d4s, d6s, and d20s be able to trigger specials may cause problems with balance or something, so I also included a more normal version.

d8: Up to 4 random enemies lose 2 life.
d10: Up to 2 random enemies are dazed and confused until the end of your next turn. A creature suffering confusion flips a coin when it attacks. If it loses the flip the attack targets one of your enemies at random instead.
d12: 1 random enemy is stunned, gains vulnerability 4, and 4 ongoing damage.(save ends all)


Last edited by Derpy_Dragon on Sun May 25, 2014 8:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sun May 25, 2014 6:24 pm

That's an interesting idea. How exactly does it work? Do the special moves in the first example *only* trigger when you roll 1s?

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Re: New Special Moves - Designs needed!

Post  Derpy_Dragon on Sun May 25, 2014 8:03 pm

I was thinking that both versions would trigger off of rolling a natural 1 instead of what would normally causes critical hits. I only made the second version because I thought there might be some balance issues with getting extra effects from d4s, d6s, and d20s. It might not have been needed as the d4 and d6 effect is very minor and rolling a 1 on a d20 is very unlikely.

d8 or d10: 1 Random enemy is dazed and confused until the end of your next turn. A creature suffering confusion flips a coin when it attacks. If it loses the flip the attack targets one of your enemies at random instead.
I was originally going to have this part hit 2 random enemies like the 2nd version, but I thought it might be a little overpowered with it triggering off of d8s and d10s. I'm not 100% sure that change was needed.
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