IT'S WAR!!!!!!

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IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:37 pm

Secession from the fandom, brothers fighting brothers. Outstanding.
http://www.horse-news.net/2014/05/equestrian-states-secede-from-fandom.html

I say we get in the spirit of things. Everyone pick a side, we'll divide the forum and fight for dominance.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:39 pm

Yeah... No... I don't care.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  AProcrastinatingWriter on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:18 pm

The idea of  "taking sides" in a "war" which is obviously being played for laughs kills any seriousness the idea had, which is a shame because geeze louise some of the toxic parts of this fandom are the worst things and having a way to distance oneself from that would be swell.

Even if that last sentence wasn't true, what's the point of all this? A bunch of people milling about, proclaiming what side they're on, and some people taking it way too seriously actually getting angry over it all? am of the opinion that that isn't any fun at all.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:25 pm

If anything I'd prefer supporting the #retakethelable thing... Then even really give much thought on the whole "Equestrians" thing... Which sadly isn't as gender neutral as I assumed when I first learned of it.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:45 pm

Yeah, I was joking guys. It's ridiculous that this is actually a thing.

But, the idea of distancing yourself from the "toxic" parts of the fandom? May as well just get out. Not only will you never be seen as separate from the perverts and deviants by those outside, but refusing to associate with them and considering them "toxic" means going against what the fandom in its foundation is supposed to represent- which is being cool, tolerating, letting people do their own thing. FiM is absolutely the last thing in the world someone should be so elitist about. Saying "I'm not like them" is one thing; "I don't want them being a part of my fandom" is different. Yeah, grimdark and r34, that kind of stuff is maybe a little messed up, but so are you if you seriously think you're better than people like that.

Not to mention, if ever I run across someone who truly clings to "You're weird for liking a show to little girls", I just have to show them Smile HD or some other grimdark, and then they don't question my masculinity anymore.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  AProcrastinatingWriter on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:52 pm

Just because I happen to like a particular TV show does not mean I am required to agree with the philosophical tenants of the fandom at large. In addition, wishing for an alternative label besides "brony" to use and be identified with is in fact saying exactly what you just said: "I'm not like them, and do not wish to be considered like them".

I could not care less about the grimdark and rule 34, by the way. It's more the misogynistic douchebags I'd like to distance myself from.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:56 pm

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:Just because I happen to like a particular TV show does not mean I am required to agree with the philosophical tenants of the fandom at large. In addition, wishing for an alternative label besides "brony" to use and be identified with is in fact saying exactly what you just said: "I'm not like them, and do not wish to be considered like them".

Agree with, no. Accept that they exist, and that judging them is a douchebag thing to do, maybe consider. And I know that's what that is. I'm not supporting the segregation.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  AProcrastinatingWriter on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:10 pm

So, because I accept that certain types of people exist, I

A) Cannot say that their actions are reprehensible
and
B) Cannot choose to label myself in a way that no longer associates myself with those types of people?

This doesn't make sense to me. I think we're debating from two very different sets of starting assumptions. Perhaps if we are to continue this, we should define the precise terms of this debate and clarify our positions?

EDIT: Apt, by the way, that a debate on what exactly it means and how moral it is to judge someone, what it means to wish for an alternative label to a group of people you belong to, etc. etc., should start up in the topic dedicated to the fandom fighting amongst itself.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:38 pm

Well my position is this:
A) The idea of members of a fandom choosing to dismiss and segregate themselves from those in the same fandom they find less reputable is less than scrupulous, when they should be happy in their shared enjoyment of a common thing.

B) When the fandom itself is meant to represent the ideas of fairness, openness, acceptance and tolerance, doing the aforementioned is appears to be genuinely unjust, if not hypocritical.

C) On the topic of choosing to associate with certain types of people- yes, you may choose who you wish to be associated with. You may accept that they are here and then choose to avoid them, proclaim difference from them- but that is not the same as tolerating them. In disassociating you are definably not tolerating who they are or what they do, and so choose to be distant from it. Those, then, are separate from fully accepting what they do as ok, and then welcoming the difference- there are a number of layers to the spectrum. Ultimately one cannot claim to be tolerant of others if they actively segregate against them. This in itself does not make that person morally wrong or bad- saying the Nazis were assholes wouldn't make me a bad person- but it does mean that I am Intolerant of their views and actions, which I am.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  ZamuelNow on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:41 pm

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:Just because I happen to like a particular TV show does not mean I am required to agree with the philosophical tenants of the fandom at large. In addition, wishing for an alternative label besides "brony" to use and be identified with is in fact saying exactly what you just said: "I'm not like them, and do not wish to be considered like them".

I could not care less about the grimdark and rule 34, by the way. It's more the misogynistic douchebags I'd like to distance myself from.

I should probably stay out of this but quoted for truth.

Bronymous wrote:When the fandom itself is meant to represent the ideas of fairness, openness, acceptance and tolerance

I'm sorry but while I don't accuse you of this, it's generally the most openly misogynistic and abrasive parts of the fandom that spout this, not the ones who actually do go about their business and treat others fine. It's a tactic to dismiss meaningful critique and discussion.

Bronymous wrote:Not to mention, if ever I run across someone who truly clings to "You're weird for liking a show to little girls", I just have to show them...

That misses the point of the show. It should be about pointing out it's a well written show than some stuff an extant fan came up with. Needing to "prove" your masculinity sorta loses the argument by default.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:46 pm

That's true, if anything I'm recalling a digibrony vid on embracing femininity.
the video in question:
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:52 pm

Sort of, but it's more to validate the existence of the negative elements as things not to be immediately dismissed, rather than validate the manliness of such things.

As for the misogynistic douchebags thing- maybe I'm just one of them, but from where I'm standing, it's the ones who prefer to exclude everyone they think is wrong that are the douchebags. So what if some people spout it as a way to make themselves look better? Not everyone does. Some people take the lessons from the show to heart. And some do that, and then decide it would be more interesting with some real life psychology thrown in- adult themes, violence, stuff that actually happens. Just because it's meant to be for kids doesn't mean we need to treat it as such, all the time. Misogyny is an ill placed argument, though, since I have yet to see any connection between people liking this show and then turning around and saying women are inferior. MAYBE stretch it to say those who corrupt it into grimdark and r34, but that is a stretch.

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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  AProcrastinatingWriter on Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:27 am

Alright, I have what I believe to be the miscommunication. I've outlined it along with some other counterarguments below.

Bronymous wrote:Well my position is this:
A) The idea of members of a fandom choosing to dismiss and segregate themselves from those in the same fandom they find less reputable is less than scrupulous, when they should be happy in their shared enjoyment of a common thing.
To use a point you bring up later in the post, if MLP had, for example, an extremely large Neo-Nazi fanbase, wanting to distance oneself from that group of people is hardly less than scrupulous. In my opinion, neither is distancing oneself from perceived misogyny.

B) When the fandom itself is meant to represent the ideas of fairness, openness, acceptance and tolerance, doing the aforementioned is appears to be genuinely unjust, if not hypocritical.
This actually hits on another reason I wish to distance myself from the term "brony": the idea that these things you've mentioned is unique to the brony fandom and is not found anywhere else, which seems to be oddly pervasive. In addition, liking the show does not mean I agree with the principles outlined as defined by the brony populace at large. My disagreeing with openness, etc. as defined by the fandom at large means not holding up to those standards is not hypocritical. In addition 'justice' is not something to be voted upon by a majority populace, so claiming that I or my actions are "unjust" requires more of a moral rebuttal than an appeal to majority.

C) On the topic of choosing to associate with certain types of people- yes, you may choose who you wish to be associated with. You may accept that they are here and then choose to avoid them, proclaim difference from them- but that is not the same as tolerating them. In disassociating you are definably not tolerating who they are or what they do, and so choose to be distant from it. Those, then, are separate from fully accepting what they do as ok, and then welcoming the difference- there are a number of layers to the spectrum. Ultimately one cannot claim to be tolerant of others if they actively segregate against them. This in itself does not make that person morally wrong or bad- saying the Nazis were assholes wouldn't make me a bad person- but it does mean that I am Intolerant of their views and actions, which I am.
Ultimately we come to the same conclusion: intolerance as you have defined it is not morally wrong, and participating in it does not make me a bad person. Thusly, my choosing to be intolerant of certain parts of the fandom may not be morally sound, but simply saying "you're being intolerant" or "the fandom at large is being intolerant" is not enough evidence of wrongdoing. In fact, I would argue that choosing not to be intolerant of certain things - like rampant misogyny - is in and of itself morally wrong.

Having counterargued, whether effectively or not, I will now outline my own assumptions and arguments, and also hopefully outline the miscommunication.
1) There is a growing trend of misogyny within the brony fandom - it exists to the point that people outside the brony subculture can readily identify it as being a common trait of the MLP fandom.  Thusly, when I say "misogynistic douchebags" I am actually not engaigng in judgmental behavior in regards to certain people or incidents as much I am participating in acknowledgment of certain trends  and prediction of where those trends are headed. I could not walk up to any specific brony and say "this is one of those women-haters I've  been telling you about" and even if I could I likely wouldn't. However, I can look at the culture and note indiivdual incidents and recurring attitudes - and so can the people outside the culture.
2) Because of 1, re: people outside labeling the fandom as "misogynistic", whether rightly or wrongly, whether such attitudes are held by the majority, the minority, or are simply isolated incidents by upstanding individuals, there is a slowly-growing but popular assumption on the internet that when I introduce myself as a brony I will be assigned certain monikers and attitudes that I do not have and do not wish to present to the world. If I choose to introduce myself as a fan of the show instead, the same effect is achieved, even though I have not used the specific "b-word".
3) Because of 2, I wish to be known as part of the fandom, but a part that has washed their hands of whatever being a "brony" means, rightly or wrongly, and is now starting over with a clean slate and (Hopefully) less perceived problems. It is perhaps my own insecurity, but I do wish to be perceived a certain way and "a misogynist" is definitely not that way.
4) In summation, and here I do believe is the miscommunicaiton, I do not want certain people in the fandom to leave - despite my counterarguments above, I cannot boil any perceived problems down to a single person or group of people to be judged, and would not feel comfortable kicking anyone out of the fandom, for as you said judging someone is a douchebag thing to do (usually). However, I wish to leave the fandom myself and so be distanced from everything, good and bad, that it currently is. Thus do I stand in support of separation, and I readily admit my reasoning is entirely selfish - but not, I would say, morally wrong.

My gosh that was a post and a half.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:40 am

So then, you would agree with what I said earlier-
Bronymous wrote:But, the idea of distancing yourself from the "toxic" parts of the fandom? May as well just get out.

For the record, I still don't see where the misogyny thing is even coming from. And to be honest, I don't think it really matters what label you give yourself. To those outside the fandom, if you say "I like My Little Pony, but I am not a Brony", then all that means to them is you are just like us but don't want to be called that. Because you are a fan, you are a part of the fandom, no matter what colors you fly or how you choose to support it. And to those of us in the fandom that you choose to separate from, it just raises the question of "why? What makes you so superior? Why not just be a part of the group?" Your choice, clearly, and no one can stop you, but it seems a little extreme to say "I want to be a fan of this thing, but I don't want to be associated with those other fans of the same thing." At best its disappointing. At worst, it's elitist, unloyal, and shallow. And ultimately, whether you buy into Love and Tolerance or not, the ultimate point of the Brony Fandom is the unity between all different manner of people who come together under a common banner, no matter how they choose to call themselves. And so ultimately just casting down that unity as trivial, saying that even though you like this show and what has come of it, you still would rather be dissociated with it, is... sad. Insulting even. It implies failure on the part of the fandom to cater closely enough to what you think it should be, so you'd just as soon throw it away. Even if that is an extreme, and that isn't the case at all, perception is everything.
Perception from the outside is that anyone who likes MLP is weird, is a Brony, no matter what the name implies. Perception is that anyone who chooses not to be called that name either just doesn't like the word, or is trying to be different when they really aren't. Perception from the inside is insult, and that you are unreasonably trying to hide from something you shouldn't.

Look, maybe I'm just taking this a bit personally. Because I fall neatly into the problem sect that is driving people away, even though we've never deliberately done anything to them personally. I believe that I am a Brony simply because I like MLP, and I think that's the only thing that it really should mean. We have names for the subsects, the cliques and clans within Bronyism, names for the various corruptions and deviancies, but those aren't part of the Brony definition. Cupcakes is the reason I joined the fandom, but it isn't what makes me a Brony. Cloppers focus their attention on MLP content, but that doesn't define them as Bronies either. Fans that don't wish to be called Brony because of its negative connotation only do so because they gave it that negative connotation. Flipside, Bronies that spout all the niceties, the Charity and the Art, and the community, often disregard the negatives, and get uncomfortable if it is ever brought up.

Whenever someone asks me "Why are you a Brony?" I only have to give them one answer: "Because it's a good show." Nothing else. No charity, no grimdark, just the show, which I enjoy. "That's childish." "Oh yeah? Watch this video of a pony snapping a bear's neck. For kids my ass." "It's gay." "So are you, wanna make out?" None of it has to do with being a Brony. It's just what has come of it for many people, and its not hard to be part of the fandom, to know those other things exist, and just say "Yeah, it happens. Doesn't matter to me though."

I didn't intend for this to become an existential debate. I was just poking fun at some overblown extremity. I don't plan on continuing it. Anything after this runs the risk of becoming "No, YOU"RE wrong", and I'd rather do my homework. Respond accordingly, as you should, but you will have the last word in it.
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  Copper Rose on Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:09 am

WOW wow wow wow wow, guys, chill out. I don't see this turning into anything really big, it's just someone fed up with people assuming they are the worst part of this said group because they call themselves a part of it, even if they are the most angelic person in the world. They're just venting, and people are way overreacting to this (just like you) when the best course of action is probably to just ignore it, as every group you get has its bad people (just look at the article that shows the one comment saying "I'll bring the porn," when that's probably something that the person was trying to avoid in the first place).

Can't we all just chill and be happy? Big Smiles, Sweetie 
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Re: IT'S WAR!!!!!!

Post  AProcrastinatingWriter on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:11 am

Okay, last word, responding accordingly!

Copper Rose wrote:[I'm] just someone fed up with people assuming they are the worst part of this said group because they call themselves a part of it [and that's the end of that!]

Chillin' out is fine...scratch that, chilling out is decidedly what people need to do. Despite apparent appearances to the contrary, there is not a point in this topic I have not been chill, simply times when I've disagreed with other people. So smile or I'll make you.  Dan vs Smiles

Spoiler:
okay maybe i'm a little unchill now
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