The New System is Here!

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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:30 am

I'm going to let Caden argue this, as he is much better than this, but I was say two things.

1. A person should be able to any type of character they desire in this system, and indeed, that's actually a big goal, if I here correctly. Playing as a Tank, that absorbs most of the single-target damage, should be possible, which leads me onto my second point...

2. Hayat, that is not a tank. I admit, using Nova with Grapple, is smart. But with the usage of challenge and vegance, to me, it says that it is a Punisher build, not a Tank Build. It is similar to a tank, but it doesn't directly redirect attacks to you, which is what a tank is all about. If an enemy attacks an ally, a tank must be able to move in and take the damage themself. Its what a tank does.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Hayatecooper on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:48 am

@fury/caden

That's what my build does, it uses continues ruse of grapple the challenge I put in there to flesh it out but it's not really needed. So if you want to take that out that's fine... still a tank build that tanks other people for single target attacks. There is no other way of doing it with in the system(At lvl 1 I must admit I didn't check on higher levels.)

So.. yeah its either focus on grapple(Hell just talk to your dm and ignore the challenge damage clause if you really feel the urge) or you know jut house rule in the other one. At the moment that's your only option because it works in the balance of the new system.

but yeah, as Dan said we need to drop it. So I'll leave it with this and say for the bits of this system I've had a chance to tr out, it's been fun so far.

Now got to run, my gf's unclothed and I'm apparently needed.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:59 am

Actually, Static isn't saying to drop the subject, but to tone is down as the 'drama' is apparently scaring people away. Apart from me shouting that one time, there hasn't exactly been any drama, so I don't really know what Static has been talking about.

And yes. I know there is Grappling. And I know that is currently the only way to 'redirect' an attack (feature excluding) at level 1, and that is the exact problem I have with the choices of abilities. Because if you want to play a Tank, your options are greatly limited. Simply by adding one ability, the Defender ability, would do wonders to fix that problem. But Static refuses to allow such a talent to exist, on rather flimsy and flawed reasoning.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Crystalite on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:31 am

This looks like a good time for a topic change.

I don't quite understand what Challenge does; did I miss the definition somewhere, or is it supposed to synergize with traits later on?
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:37 am

Crystalite wrote:This looks like a good time for a topic change.

I don't quite understand what Challenge does; did I miss the definition somewhere, or is it supposed to synergize with traits later on?

Its in the list of keywords for combat. Basically, it means that if the challenged enemy attacks someone that isn't you, they take damage. 3d10 I think it was.

Thinking about it, Challenge and Grapple, can bee used to make a devastating combo, one person challenging, the other grappling them so they have to proc the Challenge.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  ZamuelNow on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:02 am

Philadelphus wrote:@Copper Rose: Now that you've brought it up, we're considering moving the Exalted and Legendary abilities into their own document, the same way that Traits are separate from their level-1 counterparts, the Features. That way people won't have the higher-level abilities in their way when designing level 1 characters, nor the level-1 abilities in their way while leveling-up.

I...really don't like this idea.  To those who don't notice the shift, it'll make the document look really small and lead to it looking like stuff's missing, even if it's there.  Traits feel wholly separate from Features while Exalted/Legendary Abilities can have prerequisites.  I guess there is merit in a quick guide of sorts but just stating my opinion.



I think it might be worth it to have a weaker prerequisite for Weather Control at level 1.  The one in the new system is a bit more powerful than the one in the current system so I can see it being at a higher level.  Yet, a weaker version existing wouldn't just be good for pegasi.  I can see where a low level mage could conjure a small cloud or poke holes in a storm to try to gain brief solace.  A size shrinkage (thinking roughly a 20-50 foot cube) sounds feasible, especially since recharge is built in (shouldn't that be a Short Rest) so it isn't spammable.  Probably need to weaken the magnitude of the Perception debuff since it's simply not a big enough cloud for the described effects.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Crystalite on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:43 am

I think we could also be benifited by some pre-built characters: no backstory or anything, just mechanics, all ready to go, just add flavor.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:45 am

@Zamuel - One of the advantages of having the tiers for abilities is that we reduce the amount of reading new players feel obligated to do when creating characters. I'd rather cut that down to 1/3 the ability reading if possible. Wouldn't a note saying that you'll get more cool stuff as you level up be enough

@Crystallite - Zamuel's volunteered to provide some. If you want to work on that too, that'd be cool.

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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Copper Rose on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:20 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:
Philadelphus wrote:@Copper Rose: Now that you've brought it up, we're considering moving the Exalted and Legendary abilities into their own document, the same way that Traits are separate from their level-1 counterparts, the Features. That way people won't have the higher-level abilities in their way when designing level 1 characters, nor the level-1 abilities in their way while leveling-up.

I...really don't like this idea.  To those who don't notice the shift, it'll make the document look really small and lead to it looking like stuff's missing, even if it's there.  Traits feel wholly separate from Features while Exalted/Legendary Abilities can have prerequisites.  I guess there is merit in a quick guide of sorts but just stating my opinion.
I think it might be a good idea to instead of move things to a different document entirely, just color-code things so that you can tell at a glance if something is in your level range (not the entire ability, but maybe just the Point cost or some such small thing).
Like this as an example:
Novice wrote:Flight (3)
You can fly as quickly and as nimbly as you can run (making Might or Acrobatics checks for flight-related checks the same as if you were attempting any other physical task). You can also hover in place.
Exalted wrote:Dumb Luck (3)
Whenever you roll a natural 7 on a Skill Check, treat that roll as if you had rolled a natural 20.
Legendary wrote:Legendary Skill (3)
Choose one of your skills. You gain a +10 bonus to that skill. You may take this ability multiple times, though you must choose a different skill each time.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:16 am

I SUPPORT A COLOR CODE GUIDE!
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  sunbeam on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:46 am

I support a color coded guide. It solves an additional problem: When your abilities are listed on your sheet, You have no way of telling what's exalted and what's legendary. So if you're reviewing a sheet for a newcomer friend it's very difficult to tell whether they forgot an exalted point and can take more abilities. It also generally makes choosing level-up abilities easier, mathematically (Okay, I downgraded two legendary points for 3 exalted, now I have 1 legendary ability and two exalteds? Or is that one also legendary, putting me over budget...I said that several times last night).
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:21 am

Both at once are probably good ideas. If you put something in a document as a future option, a lot of new players feel obligated to read the whole thing. Especially if it's inbetween other novice abilities. Having there be a novice ability doc, just like there's a novice features doc, and then put both exalted and legendary in the level up section, should help prevent being overwhelmed. The exalted and legendary sections could have their ability point costs color coded differently.

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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Xel Unknown on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:16 am

If you put them into three different docs... Your system will die all the more... Cause of the clear lack of any level 1 options will become all the more clear. Just my two bits... Keep them on one doc and just add a simple color code that'd be simple and easy to follow...
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:20 am

If there's an actual problem with a lack of novice abilities, I'd rather make it easier to see so it can be fixed - not harder to see.


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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Copper Rose on Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:50 am

Another option is to separate into level and then category, rather than category then level
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Doc pseudopolis on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:10 pm

Minor aside the abilities document mentions Conjurer's pet as Novice Feature rather than just a feature. Does this mean that Exalted and Legendary features are in the works or is it just a typo?
I also agree with Copper on the subject of arranging the abilities by level then category as opposed to the other way around.

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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:12 pm

Technically they're Novice Features in design-speak... But since we call the exalted and legendary stuff "traits"... Yeah, that's oddly confusing. It must have come about by our maintaining some language we were used to while simultaneously creating new language for the new thing. Frankly, the terms should probably be unified when we eventually do the next pass on the file - to make things either all features or all traits in terminology.

Fixed the reference in the abilities doc to refer to it as a Feature, not a Novice Feature.

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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:37 pm

Updated the Google Docs version of the Wanderlust character sheet: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EEu_pNlj5YC19Rpin118Uq9xfi3sBBGAz9mDzZrY8yM

The column structure in the Combat half wasn't really working so it was spread out.  Takes up more page space but looks much cleaner.  Worst case scenario, font can be made smaller and border spacing adjusted. Anyone else have suggestions?
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Philadelphus on Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:21 am

ZamuelNow wrote:
I...really don't like this idea.  To those who don't notice the shift, it'll make the document look really small and lead to it looking like stuff's missing, even if it's there.  Traits feel wholly separate from Features while Exalted/Legendary Abilities can have prerequisites.  I guess there is merit in a quick guide of sorts but just stating my opinion.
Copper Rose wrote:
I think it might be a good idea to instead of move things to a different document entirely, just color-code things so that you can tell at a glance if something is in your level range (not the entire ability, but maybe just the Point cost or some such small thing).
Ooh, I like the color coding idea. Reading the comments for and against a separate Novice-level document got me to thinking: what if we kept the current document as it is (with the addition of some color-coding), and made a separate document with only the Novice abilities in it? Then both could be linked in the Player Handbook, the Novice-only doc as a sort of "new players start here" so that they don't have to read a document where 2/3 of it will only be applicable later, and the full document for more experienced players who aren't bothered by seeing everything at once.

ZamuelNow wrote:I think it might be worth it to have a weaker prerequisite for Weather Control at level 1.  The one in the new system is a bit more powerful than the one in the current system so I can see it being at a higher level.  Yet, a weaker version existing wouldn't just be good for pegasi.  I can see where a low level mage could conjure a small cloud or poke holes in a storm to try to gain brief solace.  A size shrinkage (thinking roughly a 20-50 foot cube) sounds feasible, especially since recharge is built in (shouldn't that be a Short Rest) so it isn't spammable.  Probably need to weaken the magnitude of the Perception debuff since it's simply not a big enough cloud for the described effects.
I agree that Weather Crafter could stand to be overhauled a bit and I have a few ideas for it, I just haven't had time lately to thresh them out. It's on the back-burner, but I haven't forgotten about it. At minimum I think there's room for a Novice-level version of it.

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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  tygerburningbright on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:35 am

Ok I'm going to drop in my two cents about the skill set up. Overall its not that good. It is relatively easy to use taking, in my case, about a minute or two shorter to set up than the PT system but that is mainly due to the layout and that box telling you how many points you get. At frist glance it seems that the skill allotment system seems only to cater to specialists and min-maxers and building a skill set up it confirmed my first impression in order to be good ,relative to PC standards, at a skill you have to sink in as much as a fifth of your total points however that leaves massive gaps in your skill set while being a generalist is frankly also near useless with a five or six in each of the nine skills making even the most basic of skill checks an almost 50% chance to fail.



as a side note I would like to mention that to me this entire thing feels like some sort extended April Fools joke...
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:37 am

I've come to notice that without training and without attributes, the skill levels of beings using Wanderlust is hit quite significantly. Whilst previously having an jack-of-all trades character would give you 7 in all skills (9 if you have the two jack-of-all trade abilities), Wanderlust only gives you 6, and has nothing like the Jack-of-all trades abilities. And that's just that one example.

Is that intentional? I understand the desire to have level 1's be weaker, but I think you took it a little too far.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Crystalite on Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:27 pm

Of course, you can't just give them more points or change the minimum skill either; that just makes the problem worse.

Perhaps a return of Applejack of All Trades? I kind of missed that talent, and this would help the problem significantly.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:31 pm

Actually, to me at least giving them a base skill level of more than 0 would actually work wonders imo, as it would make the entire skill set a lot more balanced.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  ZamuelNow on Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:11 pm

tygerburningbright wrote:At frist glance it seems that the skill allotment system seems only to cater to specialists and min-maxers and building a skill set up it confirmed my first impression in order to be good ,relative to PC standards, at a skill you have to sink in as much as a fifth of your total points however that leaves massive gaps in your skill set while being a generalist is frankly also near useless with a five or six in each of the nine skills making even the most basic of skill checks an almost 50% chance to fail.

One direct question I have to the devs is "what is the average DC supposed to be?" While points scale lower, I was under the impression that the average DC is also 5 points lower. As far specialists, I think this system might be a bigger deterrent both due to the low points being lower (thus there's more general risk) and that the actual spread of skills is far better. I've sorta always been an active proponent of fixing the old skills so the new system is better in that regard. I also don't think things translate 1:1 between the two skill systems.
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Re: The New System is Here!

Post  Crystalite on Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:28 pm

Zamuel does raise a point about DCs. 5 points lower means the "easy" DC is a 10; a Jack character would only need to roll a 4. Granted, a specialist is probably going to make that almost automatically; but A) That's nothing new (My Legacy weathercrafter build has no problem hitting 20-30) and B) They're probably attempting harder stuff anyways.
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