The Hooved Races

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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:21 pm

Ramsus wrote:I don't see how having a third option is more difficult than having two. It seems like you're just rejecting it just because. Especially since you yourself have repeatedly made the argument that if people are ok with a particular sacrifice then they should be allowed to take it. Slow growth in versatility is just as fair a sacrifice as one less utility talent total to start with full versatility as far as I see. So you're basically just denying people the choice because you happen to not like that choice? I don't really get it. That's exactly what you earlier mocked me for doing, except in my case I could at least say without any doubt it was just an unfair sacrifice to ask people to make (talking about old Copycat there).

Okay then. We're simply not going to talk about this any more. I've spent hours of my own time working with you on this and working to incorporate your ideas. I've stayed up past midnight on work nights specifically to help address your concerns and work a version of it into the system. I've spent pages painstakingly replying to every point you raise.

And your response is to just say that I'm rejecting it, 'just because'.

Yeah, we're not talking about this anymore.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:52 pm

Um, I didn't ask you to stay up late. And the end conclusion was you implemented stuff based on what I said but still rejected my main proposal....because. Whatever. You're right, we're not talking about it anymore for dang sure. It's not worth my effort to try and improve a system when someone is going to arbitrarily tell me when I'm no longer allowed to express my opinions.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:07 pm

Ramsus wrote:Um, I didn't ask you to stay up late. And the end conclusion was you implemented stuff based on what I said but still rejected my main proposal....because. Whatever. You're right, we're not talking about it anymore for dang sure. It's not worth my effort to try and improve a system when someone is going to arbitrarily tell me when I'm no longer allowed to express my opinions.

You're always allowed to express your opinions. But I think I also have the right to say 'good enough for now' and move my energy into any of the other threads where people are coming up with ideas for new talents, races, traits, boons, mechanics and... Yeah.

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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  XandZero2 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:15 pm

^Um... guys?

Coming in as a neutral party, I just want to say that it looks like you both put a lot of energy into the Changeling rules. You should be proud with what's come of it. Personally, I'd thought Changelings looked in need of some kind of change as well, and I think they've only become a stronger and more flavorful option because of your discussions.

That said, it's obvious you're both very invested in this project and want it to be as successful as it can be, but maybe you got a little too passionate?

I do not want this to be taken the wrong way. Please do not take this the wrong way. I'm trying to be honest here though, and as I see it, you both might have made some mistakes.

Stairc, you may have gotten a little too stressed out over this one race. It looks like you put so much time and effort into it that a hobby stopped being a hobby anymore and started to turn into a nightmare.

And Ramsus, it's important to be able to compromise. You can't have everything your way, not in a community project (emphasis on the word-community), and how can you honestly imply that Stairc hasn't worked with you? You guys have been going back and forth for the last three or more pages of this thread.

So hopefully that was more helpful than rage-inducing (as was my intent... er... the former, not the latter). I hope you guys can see my side, and here's to also hoping that there's no hard feelings between either of you (and myself).

I think it's best to move on certainly, but to also continue working together to make this game the best it can be, and to do it in the spirit of friendship (whether that seems cheesy or not, I think it's relevant to note here).

I hope you guys can still friends, or at least, online buddies.

Sincerely,
-Josh
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:26 pm

Glad to hear that you like the new Changeling developments XandZero. I completely agree, they've come out much stronger after the discussion - I'm very pleased with the new changes. It was definitely worth the discussion. sunny

Don't worry, the project hasn't turned into a nightmare for me. I'm still excited about working on it, but I completely agree that it's time to move on from this issue. It just seems that when I said that, Ramsus took it to mean that I wasn't going to allow him to talk anymore or something - and I don't want that. I always want to hear everyone's opinions on absolutely everything. Like we've said, a lot of great things have come out of the changeling discussion. I love how the race has been polished.

It's a shame that Ramsus isn't satisfied with the new design, I'd like to list his name on it along with Lapis Lazily. If you'd like credit for it Ramsus, you definitely deserve it. Just let me know and I'll put you as co-designer of the race in the expansion. king

Now, time to turn our attention back to utility talents and the leveling up process. Let's get crackin'!
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:34 pm

???

You mean I wasn't getting credited before? I really don't pay much attention to things like that and just assumed I already had? (Or rather it's more like I assumed the part of me that bothered to care about getting credit assumed that. It really wasn't something that crossed my mind.)

Anyway, no worries Xand. I'm good at compartmentalizing. I can have a flaming row with someone about one topic, an enjoyable but serious rp about serious subjects, and a goofy nonsense discussion all at the same time without the emotions involved in one really crossing over into the other. (Also, I'm somewhat quick to anger and quick to calm down. So generally by the time anyone has had time to worry about lasting anger I'm already over whatever it was. Which is good because I read into things and think about things differently than other people kinda a lot.)

I don't recall saying Stairc didn't work with me though. *confused*
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:41 pm

Ramsus wrote:???

You mean I wasn't getting credited before? I really don't pay much attention to things like that and just assumed I already had? (Or rather it's more like I assumed the part of me that bothered to care about getting credit assumed that. It really wasn't something that crossed my mind.)

Not specifically, no. I can't possibly list all the people that work on every design, so I only list the major contributors. Heck, I work on every design at some point or other and I never even list myself on them. I was planning on listing you on the revamped changeling along with Lapis Lazily once we reached an agreement, but since you didn't seem to like the current format - I wasn't sure it would be fair to you if I listed you as a creator of something you disapproved of.

Hence why I'm asking. If you want joint credit for the current design, I'll gladly give it to you. If you don't want to be listed as one of the creators, then that's fine - just too bad.

Ramsus wrote:Anyway, no worries Xand. I'm good at compartmentalizing. I can have a flaming row with someone about one topic, an enjoyable but serious rp about serious subjects, and a goofy nonsense discussion all at the same time without the emotions involved in one really crossing over into the other. (Also, I'm somewhat quick to anger and quick to calm down. So generally by the time anyone has had time to worry about lasting anger I'm already over whatever it was. Which is good because I read into things and think about things differently than other people kinda a lot.)

Glad to hear. Personally, I didn't get frustrated until the end myself - it probably just read that way. Text is a clumsy way to express tone (for example, my poor use of laughter in text - which I stupidly thought would communicate the fact that I was still enjoying the design and not at all frustrated - was taken as a derisive insult) and I appologize if you felt insulted in any way. It's only because I value your opinion and felt you were raising important issues that I spent so much time on this in the first place.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Ramsus on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:46 pm

Oh. I like the current two options for Changelings quite a bit. They work very well for several builds I can see people wanting to make. I just wanted the third as well for those who wanted a few other kinds I could see people wanting.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:47 pm

Ramsus wrote:Oh. I like the current two options for Changelings quite a bit. They work very well for several builds I can see people wanting to make. I just wanted the third as well for those who wanted a few other kinds I could see people wanting.

Great then. I'll list you as co-designer then. sunny
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  XandZero2 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:48 pm

Ramsus wrote:Anyway, no worries Xand. I'm good at compartmentalizing. I can have a flaming row with someone about one topic, an enjoyable but serious rp about serious subjects, and a goofy nonsense discussion all at the same time without the emotions involved in one really crossing over into the other. (Also, I'm somewhat quick to anger and quick to calm down. So generally by the time anyone has had time to worry about lasting anger I'm already over whatever it was. Which is good because I read into things and think about things differently than other people kinda a lot.)

Okay, well that's good to hear. It looked like you guys got pretty worked up (it is hard to read emotion over the net), and I just wanted to make sure everything was still kosher.

Ramsus wrote:I don't recall saying Stairc didn't work with me though. *confused*

^Ah, that might have just been me misreading things then.


Last edited by XandZero2 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:49 pm

XandZero2 wrote:
Ramsus wrote:I don't recall saying Stairc didn't work with me though. *confused*

^Ah, that might have just been me misreading things then.

Me too, because that's the one thing that got me frustrated in the first place.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  Dr Blight on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:25 pm

I just had a thought. Once again about changelings. Sorry. It's not about a template though.

In the show, the changelings were able to make this green goo that they could use to restrain things or make cocoons. It was apparently strong enough to even suspend Celestia from the ceiling. Do changeling PCs have access to that? Or would it need to be a utility talent? I just figured it might be useful for things like binding a recently defeated enemy you don't want running away. Or temporarily supporting/sabotaging a structure like for example, using it to jam and seal a door shut. Or gumming up the works of some machine you don't want enemies using. It could be used for a lot of things really.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  SilentBelle on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:29 pm

Dr Blight wrote:I just had a thought. Once again about changelings. Sorry. It's not about a template though.

In the show, the changelings were able to make this green goo that they could use to restrain things or make cocoons. It was apparently strong enough to even suspend Celestia from the ceiling. Do changeling PCs have access to that? Or would it need to be a utility talent? I just figured it might be useful for things like binding a recently defeated enemy you don't want running away. Or temporarily supporting/sabotaging a structure like for example, using it to jam and seal a door shut. Or gumming up the works of some machine you don't want enemies using. It could be used for a lot of things really.

That's a fantastic utility talent Very Happy

Changeling Goo!

Edit: Toss it over into the utility talents section, and if you don't know exactly how to balance it, there are many of us who are pretty good at hammering out little kinks. I look forward to it.
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Re: The Hooved Races

Post  XandZero2 on Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:20 am

SilentBelle wrote:
Dr Blight wrote:I just had a thought. Once again about changelings. Sorry. It's not about a template though.

In the show, the changelings were able to make this green goo that they could use to restrain things or make cocoons. It was apparently strong enough to even suspend Celestia from the ceiling. Do changeling PCs have access to that? Or would it need to be a utility talent? I just figured it might be useful for things like binding a recently defeated enemy you don't want running away. Or temporarily supporting/sabotaging a structure like for example, using it to jam and seal a door shut. Or gumming up the works of some machine you don't want enemies using. It could be used for a lot of things really.

That's a fantastic utility talent Very Happy

Changeling Goo!

Edit: Toss it over into the utility talents section, and if you don't know exactly how to balance it, there are many of us who are pretty good at hammering out little kinks. I look forward to it.

^I wouldn't mind seeing that, along with a mind-control utility (;
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Re: The Hooved Races

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