Paper Shadow's Combat Ideas

There use to be words here. They're gone now. Gone into this handy-dandy document, that is. You should click it. Inside there are a bunch of new toys for you to play with, including new Special Moves and Combat Classes. So what are you waiting for? Click it. Go on, do it. Do it now...

You should give your opinion on my ideas. Balance is complex and fascinating...

Quick Changelog:

• Introduced Channel. Channelling requires focus to use, but if you can channel for at least a turn, it will be worth it. And then you can continue to channel for free. More information in the first post. Each class got at least one new channel move to use as well (Cider Keg, Tamper, Cryonics and Snowstorm)...
  
• Reworked Snow Guard into Ice Queen. I didn't like the mix of supportive and very aggressive moves in a single class, so I removed the supportive stuff and added more offensive options. Also the flavour of a Snow Guard not guarding his allies from the snow, and in fact freezing them, was a bit off for me. The supportive talents will return in a rebuilt Snow Guard which I plan to design for tanks, supports against conditions, and gamblers looking for defensive options...
  
• Molotov deals 2d4 damage, instead of 1d12, but now also causes Ongoing Damage 3 (save ends). This is to weaken using all molotovs on a single target, as I realised a five man team could deal 6d12 damage on turn one.
  
• Forget You has been renamed Gas Light, and now also causes Exhaustion, since there are similar talents which reflect or cancel attacks aimed at you.
  
• Renamed the topic to something less stupid.
  
• Added Spoilers to make the thread less wall-of-texty...

Saboteur got some reflavouring and new toys...

Changelog:

• Added a new condition called Lock. Lock, as the name suggests, makes the last combat talent the creature suffering used unable to be used while the creature suffers from Lock. It's designed to counter builds which require spamming a single talent in order to achieve results. I also added two new talents for Lock; Prepare Lock, which is similar to the other Prepare talents, and Hack, a high-costing Lock which lasts until the battle ends (or Lock is reapplied, obviously)...
  
• Added Prepare Weakness. It's like the other Prepare talents, but for Weakened. Also, since all the other Prepare talents mention the status in the name, Prepare Venom has been renamed to Prepare Exhaustion.
  
• Where I Want You has been renamed to Counter-Intelligence, and is now a Reaction Attack instead of a Interrupt Attack.
  
• No Pain, No Gain has been renamed to Undermine.
  
• Added two more annotations...

Hmm, I think Hic should be a +2 instead of +1. That's just something that jumped out at me as I read some of these. There are a few more that would need balancing, but overall I like what I see here. I like the ideas for other status effects you've introduced. I'll do a more in-depth look and comment later.

SilentBelle wrote:Hmm, I think Hic should be a +2 instead of +1. That's just something that jumped out at me as I read some of these. There are a few more that would need balancing, but overall I like what I see here. I like the ideas for other status effects you've introduced. I'll do a more in-depth look and comment later.

Thank you for your comments. I do agree with what you said about *Hic*. I didn't want it to be considered stronger than Psychic Surge, which is why I made it give a max of 3 pips, but I would admittedly take one of the more useful and reliable +3 pip skills over it. I'll change it when I next update, which should hopefully be when I finish the remade Snow Guard. I'm just having trouble ironing down some more moves and the flavour...

Did anyone say changelog? Because I didn't...

• Drunkard renamed to Drunken Brawler, to make the name more combat-ty...
  
• *Hic* now gives +2 pips, up from +1.
  
• Snow Guard is back! With three old talents which I improved and five brand new ones, including one-turn summons, a new channel, and a new weapon conjure which comes with a bunch of talents and a trait, there's something for everyone. Well, anyone who doesn't want to deal that much damage, at least.
  
• Fixed one of the annotations for Ice Queen being outside the spoiler. I also disabled smilies in the post due to the inevitable eight-close bracket smiley...

Next on my never-ending agenda is a pip-building combat class. Here's one of my ideas which are roaming in my head. Feel free to give opinions:
[+1] Emergency Funding - Minor Utility
You lose all of your pips at the end of your turn.

That's...rather situational but not bad. It could be the difference between using that technique you need and death. Still, it's rather situational.

Whiteeyes wrote:That's...rather situational but not bad. It could be the difference between using that technique you need and death. Still, it's rather situational.

Maybe. I did want to try making a +pip minor talent. A stronger, less situational alternative:
[0] Family Discount - Minor Utility
You combat talents cost one pip less until the end of the turn.

That's easier to use, and to abuse. -1 talents at free forever! It would be really easy to run an abuse with that.

Whiteeyes wrote:That's easier to use, and to abuse. -1 talents at free forever! It would be really easy to run an abuse with that.

Well, it's a good thing I changed it then. Which you can see, as the Mobster has been added to the first post...

There's no changelog because I only added the Mobster and the changelog is away for New Years anyway...

Changelog came back from the holiday, looking for work. Here's an update...

• Added Special Moves. They can be found between the channel information and the Drunken Brawler class. It's no secret that there isn't that many Special Moves, so take a look at them and whatnot...
  
• Cider Keg now grants 2 pips while channelling, up from 1. I may buff it further, I feel it might be a bit weak for what it is...
  
• Locked +pip talents can now be fizzled, but you only get half the pips. If you are exhausted, that amount is then halved, so don't get exhausted and locked at the same time or you'll be in trouble...
  
• Added Winter's Coming to Ice Queen. It's a high costing talent which may cause your chills to become full stuns for the rest of combat.
  
• Added Torch Signal and Flare Signal for Snow Guard. These are like On My Mark, but for Minor Talents. Torch Signal also causes Vulnerability to yourself, so you can get some extra kick to your abilities and also balances the talent so you can get a pip from using it as well.
  
• Light Torch now costs 6 pips, down from 7 pips, and is called Light Grand Torch. Lit Torch has been renamed to Grand Torch. In addition, Ward now give resist 3, up from resist 2.
  
• Dosh and Loads of Money renamed Raid and Heist. I may rename again to something a bit more relevant on a later date...

The one turn summons don't do anything, since they take their turn immediately after you do. They should instead die at the start of your next turn or their second turn.

Also, both the protection money talent and the exhaustion effect are patently ridiculous. Protection money can target you and your friends, allowing you to funnel pips to yourself or give resist 5 to your party against your randomly self damaging stuff, basically making it a [+4] move with little to no real drawback (eg. turn 1: gather energy, turn 2: Protection Money + Wild Abandon, turn 3: gather energy, turn 4: hit enemy then protection money, continue with turn 3/4 until enemy is dead.) While the saboteur gets to hit enemies square in the pip count with the fact that they can give exhaustion (guaranteed) on turn 1, then if the enemy actually has pips (remember that monsters normally start with 0? I do) they can hit them with Sabotage on turn 2, making them have little to no pips left. Or they can just keep applying stupid debuff effects with the [+3] that deals 0 damage until they have to sabotage, since after turn 1 they have the 6 pips for it they can go ahead and apply lock on turn 2, ect. It's an interesting concept, but the mechanics of it are that you stunlock your opponent's pip total until your friends are done beating the stuffing out of it.

As a positive note, I actually like Most Wanted, and feel that it is a much better example of what a [+5] balance point should be.

thematthew wrote:(remember that monsters normally start with 0? I do)

Ever since I was told about this rule on Friday it has brought me nothing but strife...

The one turn summons problem is just a wording problem, and Protection Money creature target can be changed to only target enemies, those won't be a problem. We can fix them, we have the technology. The point of using Gather Energy into Attack and Protection Money forever is a good point though, and not as easily solved, but still not too hard. Let's try this...

[-1] Protection Money - Standard Utility
Up to four target enemies gain resist 5 to your next attack. If a target already has resist to your attacks, they don't lose a pip. You gain a pip for every two pips lost this way.

This should knock the pip sustain quite a bit, while protecting monsters pips from players who spam this (because your post made me realise that double Protection Money could remove two pips every second turn and gain five pips that way as well). Also, creatures with their own version of resist don't lose a pip either, enabling counter play, so that's cool as well. Hopefully you will agree that I've made sufficient changes to Protection Money to make it still an attractive option but not game breaking...

Now, let's move on the Exhaustion, and the whole Saboteur class in whole. A week ago, I thought you built and played monsters like how you would build and play a PC, maybe adding custom attacks and traits to give the bigger or unique ones more of an umph. So the Saboteur class, which was made almost three weeks ago, was built around that system. That is to say, the Saboteur is essentially a PvP Class at the moment. Exhaustion didn't seem like a problem when designing it because I thought monsters started at 4 pips anyway, and if it was implemented, then the monsters would get access to it as well, giving GMs some defence against pip builders. But obviously, in light of how monsters are actually played, I need to change some things. Let me do some idea generation and remake the Saboteur into something a bit more monster-friendly...

I'll make the other changes the next time I have something to add to the first post...

I do like that version of protection money better. I actually don't see a reason to make it enemies specifically with the 2:1 ratio of loss to gain (if your party is okay with funneling pips to you at a loss, I say why not.)

A couple more notes:

I'd say Hic should give you the 2 extra if you weren't dazed and blinded before, since those are both pretty bad conditions (dazed especially in a combat group that gives free action options) and since the talent gives both as a package it shouldn't come up very often.

I don't see a reason for Smashed Glass to actually cost a pip. As far as attacks are concerned Smashed Glass is the equivalent of a +2 Standard at best (thank you paying attention to the balance point) so giving that to people for free is really not a big deal.

Ring-a-ding-ding. Big old changelog coming your way...

• All Special Moves have been given a Tabletop Version
  
• Aim of the Archer's 10 Cirt changed to an extra 1d8 damage on the next attack, as opposed to a flat 5.
  
• Samurai's Heart's 8 Crit changed to 1d10 Temporary HP, down from a flat 10.
  
  
• *Hic* now gives one extra pip if you aren't dazed or blindness, and a second extra pip if you aren't suffering from either condition.
  
• Smashed Glass now costs 0 pips.
  
  
• Saboteur has been reworked now that I have an idea how monsters work.
  
• Exhaustion now prevents creatures which have 3 or more pips from gaming any more pips, as opposed to halfing all pip gain. In addition, fizzling a Locked Talent now gives all pips now gives all pips, as opposed to half of the pips.
  
• All Prepare X Talents have become Standard Utilities instead of Minor Utilities. Prepare Exhaustion has had its pip cost increased to 2 pips, and Prepare Blindness has been added.
  
• Undermine now costs 1 pip, down from 2 pips.
  
• Poison the Water didn't have (save ends) on its poison element. I have fixed that now.
  
• Gas Light has been reworded slightly so the refund part isn't affected by Exhaustion. In addition, Gas Light itself no long causes Exhaustion.
  Tamper has been change so you can only make the target reroll a single dice the target creature rolls every turn. In retrospect, having someone get two chances on every roll during something like Despair or It's Over and whatnot was a very silly thought.
  
• Sabotage no longer removes half of pips, but instead applies Exhaustion (save ends)
  
• Hack is now a Channel, so the target creature suffers Lock for as long as it is being channelled. It's cost reduced to 8 pips, and if it is manually ended, the Lock no longer requires being channelled and becomes Lock (save ends). This is the same Lock, so don't reapply it and lock the last used move again.
  
  
• Cold Breeze has its damage increased to 1d6 from 1d4.
  
• Frostbite's initial damage has been increased to 1d6 from 1d4.
  
• Snowstorm's damage has been reduced to 1d10 in both parts that cause damage, down from 1d12 in both parts.
  
  
• Snow Guard has been given a Tabletop Variant.
  
  
• Incognito now requires a successful coin flip it you wish to gain its effect.
  
• Godfather's cost has been increased to 9 pips, up from 8 pips.

Small changelog because I am in a rush...

• Added Torturer Class...
  
• Added a new talent for the Ice Queen, the Ice Prison...
  
• Fixed two Prepare X talents still being Minor Talents instead of Standard. I'm surprised I missed that...
  
• Updated Protection Money, because I apparently didn't last time...

So, I've been thinking about the Torturer class, and I decided that I didn't like the playstyle it encouraged, which I now realise would cause combat to slow down so you could give your team an advantage, especially against single creates. I'm likely gonna scrap it, maybe reusing some of the talents which I like, such as Schadenfreude, Decimate, and Guillotine. If you have any comments about any of the Torturer's talents, speak now or forever hold your silence...

Also, if you have a playstyle you like, but don't feel that there is enough talents for, I am now taking in suggestions for playstyles to design for. This will help me keep an idea of the goal I am aiming for, so I don't have a case like Torturer again where I end up not liking what the end result would play like...

Well, so long as you're taking suggestions, why not a class that gets stronger as more status conditions get piled on it?

Jason Shadow wrote:Well, so long as you're taking suggestions, why not a class that gets stronger as more status conditions get piled on it?

That would go well with the official Warlock talents.

Jason Shadow wrote:Well, so long as you're taking suggestions, why not a class that gets stronger as more status conditions get piled on it?

I'm currently working on this. Sadly, I feel that there are already a lot of good options when it comes to this playstyle, such as Dark Bargain, Mind over Matter, and Curse Eater, so I didn't make stuff like them since they already exist, so this class is less "gets stronger as more status conditions get piled on it" and more "gets somewhat stronger as more status conditions get piled on it, but has more options which involve setting yourself on fire". Hopefully I'll get more ideas when I continue work, but have a peek at my current ideas, which may undergo changes when I continue...

Fire Juggler's Combat Talents:

No Safety seems kind of exploitable... You could couple it with the regen (save ends) and have regen forever!

Maybe just make it [+4] and give you -5 to saving throws and vulnerability 1 (save ends both). You must be suffering from a (save ends) condition before using this talent.

Maybe something like that... I feel like shutting off all your natural saving-throws might be too much... Just a feeling.

Also, maybe add this:
[-1] Masochism - Utility Interrupt
Trigger: You succeed on a saving-throw
Effect: You fail the triggering saving throw. Gain 1d12 temporary hit points.

I'm liking the look of this so far, and the flavor you've assigned to this class was quite the pleasant surprise. I have nothing constructive to say, so, uh... keep up the good work!

SilentBelle wrote:No Safety seems kind of exploitable... You could couple it with the regen (save ends) and have regen forever!

Maybe just make it [+4] and give you -5 to saving throws and vulnerability 1 (save ends both). You must be suffering from a (save ends) condition before using this talent.

Maybe something like that... I feel like shutting off all your natural saving-throws might be too much... Just a feeling.

I'm not really worried about permanent regen, because that's the only positive save ends effect in a sea of pain, and it's only regeneration 2. but I do hear your concerns. I wanted to make another +5 talent which worked on saving throws. Initially, it gave a -7 penalty to saving throws, but I felt that wasn't enough, so I changed it to -10, but felt that was too much. -5 and no self saving allowed you to keep save end conditions most of the time, but by throwing in talents, either your own or an allies, which allows you to make saving throws, you can still dispell save ends conditions which you don't want to keep, like if the big bad gives you Vulnerability 10 or something...

If you still feel it's too much, I will look into ways alternative methods of keeping it a +5, but failing that, I will most likely take your +4 idea. Admittedly, it would help with the problem of reliable pip gain this class lacks by itself (not like anyone would only take stuff from this class, but I like to have my classes be able to be somewhat playable by themselves as well). Then again, Crazy Concoction gives Vulnerability 2, the -5 penalty, and a +2 bonus to damage, but only +2 pips, so who knows...

SilentBelle wrote:Also, maybe add this:
[-1] Masochism - Utility Interrupt
Trigger: You succeed on a saving-throw
Effect: You fail the triggering saving throw. Gain 1d12 temporary hit points.

I'll most likely steal this. It'll help with the sustain problem. If I forget to credit you when I add the class to the first post, yell at me until I do...

Jason Shadow wrote:I'm liking the look of this so far, and the flavor you've assigned to this class was quite the pleasant surprise. I have nothing constructive to say, so, uh... keep up the good work! :D

That's good. I'm thinking of renaming the class from Fire Juggler to Fire Dancer, but otherwise I'm pretty happy with it myself as well...

Also, I just saw that I didn't fix Snow Wall and Snow Fort's insta-death problem, so I'll do that as well when I add this class and whatnot. I also just saw Hangman’s Noose, so I may change "Catch!" to something else. Maybe not, but who knows...

You should also change Eat Fire (Either make it a minor or reduce the cost) since Curse Eater rolls in at -4 with more healing (Xd12 where X is # of save ends), the ability to crit, and it removes everything instead of just Ongoing Damage.

I'm too tired to assess the rest right now, I'd probably make some weird mistake in reading.

thematthew wrote:You should also change Eat Fire (Either make it a minor or reduce the cost) since Curse Eater rolls in at -4 with more healing (Xd12 where X is # of save ends), the ability to crit, and it removes everything instead of just Ongoing Damage.

Oh, drat. I'll work on that too. Also, I might change Juggle as well, as it's more efficient to have an ally with Benediction of Maladies than to use Juggle...

Basically, everything which followed the suggestion of making a class stronger for each status condition on itself could use some work...