Re: Official Errata Suggestion/Discussion Thread (changes you'd like to see made)

[ZamuelNow]

Um are you avoiding the request of evidence on purpose? I for one would very much like to see any of the so called out-cry for this change.  Any transcript of your "Playtesting" or even PMs from "New players" would be appreciated.

Naturally, we don't hire a stenographer to record transcripts of playtests. We also don't use voice-recording software. What we do is try it out and note the differences. Don't have graphs or anything to show you.

One thing that would be nice is more notes from these, though.  And not in an argumentative or confrontational way.  Simply having a weekly thread in the Roleplay forum describing games you've played and/or GMed and the things that happened would simply be a way for people to see where you're coming from.  Might lead to interesting discussions on playstyles and gameplay.

[Fury of the Tempest]

@Fury - Fury, does walking require energy? Yes. Do joggers slow to a walk to catch their breath, getting some energy back, before jogging again? Yes. Before you repeat the "but *everything* costs energy" argument yet again - please acknowledge this analogy. [+] pip powers still do stuff, they're just not as stressful - more like slowing down your pace in a fight to catch your breath.

But my argument is that the actions are not restful, or slowing down the pace of your fight to catch your breath. At least the actions I highlighted.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

One thing that would be nice is more notes from these, though.  And not in an argumentative or confrontational way.  Simply having a weekly thread in the Roleplay forum describing games you've played and/or GMed and the things that happened would simply be a way for people to see where you're coming from.  Might lead to interesting discussions on playstyles and gameplay.

It would definitely be great to have these to review. But really, if it isn't some form of stenography then it kind of just comes down to us saying "Hey, this happened" anyway. Either way, it might be great for me to write up short notes at the end of each session blog-style; so it's clearer what we're testing out and why. I'm not running sessions right now (working on other games that I'm testing) but when I start up again that'd be great. Nice idea.

But my argument is that the actions are not restful, or slowing down the pace of your fight to catch your breath. At least the actions I highlighted

Since the moves are often reflavored based on the character, that's not exactly something we can account for. However, the idea is that for a runner - slowing to a jog is more restful. For a jogger, slowing to a walk is more restful. To an action/adventure hero (rainbow dash shatters the sound barrier and smashes through rock), the [+] moves are their equivalent.

[SparkImpulse]

it might be great for me to write up short notes at the end of each session blog-style

+1

'blogs are the right format for that kind of info dump, and it both gives you something (in the past) to point to, and those who follow it closely a heads-up that you are about to make a horrible mistake you're getting input that vastly differs from what any forumite would give you.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Sarc. You can't ignore the flavour of your combat talents, going against your argument, when what's being changed is essentially flavour.

Also. Judo Throw will probably take less energy than draining someone's life force and giving it to someone else.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Sarc. You can't ignore the flavour of your combat talents, going against your argument, when what's being changed is essentially flavour.

The difference is that the initial name of 'energy' or 'pips' makes it a bit more clear how the mechanic works from the get-go. In fact, if you check the handbooks, you'll see we already use this exact explanation as to why using [+] powers gain you 'pips' - even using the term energy in its explanation. This is the explanation that's been in use before, basically equating pips to energy, and it's the one people have already been reading in the rules.

The flavor of something like Stab or Conjure Rabbit exists just to make it clear what the talent does mechanically, in the same way changing pips to energy is meant to do the same thing. It doesn't have any more significance than that, because people do change the names of their things once they know how the game is played. We encourage that heartily to personalize your character.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Using 'energy' to explains things is no different, and no easier to grasp than 'PiPs'.

Even ignoring the flavour argument. No change is necessary. Therefore, no change happens.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

You've stated your opinion and your reasons for it. I'm glad to hear them and your passion for the game is pretty much the biggest compliment you could pay me. However, I just don't agree with you.

We'll try it out using 'energy' for a while and see what happens when people are more used to the term. In the mean time, feel free to keep calling them 'pips' in your personal games. Everything in the system, from the names of the combat talents to the inclusion of house-rules and unofficial forum expansions - based on your personal tastes and preferences - is heartily encouraged. If you still want to call them pips, it's totally fine with me - the same as if someone wants to call them 'ammo' for his gunslinger character.

[Xel Unknown]

The major issue is that to a degree this change feels like it'll limit flavor ideas... Pips worked as a type of Combat Currency while Energy is a lot more vague to me. Again, there isn't much point to this change and your reactions to our complaints are quite uncaring... So if we're still having issue with this like some weeks or so down the line, will it be removed? No? And really, I don't like how you hide everything of your closed beta-playtesters from us. It comes across to me as you don't use this form's members as a "council of advisers" but more minions that you wish to have us put up with your random rulings that you all make on your own whim. The fact that you guys still haven't tried to apologize from how uncaring you posted this change is quite a telling action to me. Your reaction to our disapproval, is just "give it time to grow on you, you'll enjoy it in a month or so"... Which is very dismissive to your very so-called "Council of Advisers"'s opinions... So waht is the deal?

And am I not somebody who's supported basically all the major changes that has happened since I joined about a year or so ago? I enjoyed the Items update, the removal of race barriers, the gendic engen, Item updates, new Destinies, new Boons, ect. Yet for some reason I strongly dislike this change, keep asking for better logic to justify this change, which you don't share becuase you seem to not have such logic other then "we think it'll help the newbs, we want to help newbs, and we want to do it because it'll helps newbs". So what weight does my strong disproval and fear over this change means to you guys? I mean really, I only see this change making some people turn "purists" who will look down on others that use the "energy" term. (something I even fear is that I'LL BECOME one of these people and there's nothing I can do about that) The only reaction to these fears I've seen is basically just. "Oh it's unfounded fears and giving it time you guys will love and excpet this change too." Which is totally a dissmissive and uncaring viewpoint to our complaints.

No matter how much you have claimed that you care about this form's users and their opinions... This latest change makes me feel very much like you all care nothing of us.

As spark said: This is kinda like the MMO move where a change is to be helpful to newbs without stepping on the vets toes to a degree to keep them from leaving... I felt i should leave this game system FOR GOOD thanks to this... Feelings I still don't understand like at all how they've grown from something so minor. It's a bad sign for the future how you devs have acted... If you guys have a next major change where everyone basically hates it, brings up some major game braking outcomes, and you just treat us like unruly children who don't know better about game theory and how to make a system like this...

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Really sorry to hear you say that Xel. I'm not sure how you get the idea that we don't care what you have to say. If we didn't care, I wouldn't be spending hours talking to everyone about it on here. The initial post definitely could have explained things better, it seems like Kindulas was rushing out the door at the time. I'm sorry if you think it was somehow implied we don't care what people think.

But frankly, your implication that we're somehow sitting back trying to make your life miserable, troll you all and that we don't care about the health of the system - seem a lot more insulting than the response "Across the history of all game communities, people tend to have initial negative reactions to change and we've got a hefty track record of initial negative reactions on changes in this system too - most of which settled down once people got used to it. People tend to be louder when they oppose something than when they agree with something too, and since this change is indeed made for the benefit of people that have yet to learn the system - it's not like they can post their support. Ultimately, we still think it's an improvement."

I'm sorry if this initially steps on anyone's toes - but it's a really, really minor change to a single term. It doesn't even have to affect your home games.

[Xel Unknown]

I never intend to insult anyone with my opinions and fears. Therefore I do deeply apologize for that... I more was trying to explain my fears and opinions related to this change. seeing the overall reaction to complants being: "Just give this new change time to settle..." Kinda doesn't totally gel with that statement calling the forum your "Coultal of Advisers" to me. From what I've seen of the forum, waiting eventually gives people apthiy to the change and not giving them feelings that they could do anything but just learn to live with the change because it's here to stay. I really don't understand this change nor really my own reactions to it.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

Thanks for the apology. No hard feelings.  

It's always tough when we disagree on something, especially with the most active members of the community. I also get why it might seem dismissive that the response isn't to immediately change it back - but I don't think anyone can deny a lot of this is probably due to whiplash of the sudden term change. Something familiar that we're used to is suddenly being called something else. There isn't a mechanical benefit to combat, so the knee-jerk reaction is to say no - similar to how I'd feel if Magic the Gathering started calling 'mana' something else. It'd frankly be disorienting.

That's why we're waiting a while to see how much of the negative reaction is based on the logic underlying the change and how much of it is the initial queasy feeling of a fundamental term being changed.

[tygerburningbright]

If it really was tiny and minor and everyone was happy with how it was why did you need to change it? Also you still have given no evidence that new players actually are confused by the term. For that matter most new active players seem to be perfectly fine with PiPs.

Wait just a second didn't you step down from being a designer? If so why in the world are you answering in place of the current designers?

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

I didn't step down as Lead Designer - I just took a break from doing design and development work. I'm still technically on break, so I'm taking my free time to answer questions about this as best I can.

As for evidence, I've given you the same evidence that you and others have when they say people haven't had trouble with it. Personal anecdote and my own experiences in testing and explaining the system to new players. I've done a lot of that.

[Paper Shadow]

As for evidence, I've given you the same evidence that you and others have when they say people haven't had trouble with it. Personal anecdote and my own experiences in testing and explaining the system to new players. I've done a lot of that.

But most of us have done that as well and had little to no problems with it. At best, the reason this change has been made is because you found yourself saying "Pips is basically like mana or energy" too many times...

[Ramsus]

If Paper Shadow's hypothesis is correct, I would guess the reason for it is because in live games people tend to ask questions as soon as they read something instead of reading the entire document before seeing if they have questions.

[A1C Bronymous]

Actually, our evidence is the year or so of forums that show no one having any issue learning pips, beyond maybe a random "what is pips", followed by a subsequent answer. That's a year's worth of "New Players" who had no trouble with it. That's also a year's worth of players who would prefer to see it remain as pips. Your test group that are saying they have trouble with it are a huge minority in both cases, and if they aren't, you're doing your best to avoid clearing it up for us skeptics. It should be plain to see why changing anything for them, who just got here, and who haven't put the same time or effort into learning the system or helping build and expand it, over the majority voice of your "Council of Advisors", could be considered dismissive.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

But most of us have done that as well and had little to no problems with it. At best, the reason this change has been made is because you found yourself saying "Pips is basically like mana or energy" too many times...

Exactly. We have paid attention to what you said and haven't asked for additional evidence. However, from the anecdotes it sounds like most people are dealing with players that have already read the rulebook and have thus already heard the 'using a [+] power is like conserving your energy with less taxing attacks' analogy. If someone's already heard the analogy and a lengthier, precise explanation - there naturally won't be many issues.

On the other hand, when we verbally teach someone how to play and hear accounts of it - the people that seems to get it the quickest (focusing on people brand new to RPGs) are those that hear pips described as how much energy you have available to you. If pips are really just 'energy pips' - we figured we might as well go with calling them energy - the same way Guild Wars used energy and how other games have used things like mana and magic before.

People, especially new players, naturally feel more comfortable when the game elements are rooted in something that makes sense. In a board game like pandemic, the weird rules about how the cards interact and don't interact make no sense in a representation of real world traveling and curing diseases. This can cause player confusion. We're trying to take something abstract (power points) and call them something that makes a bit more intuitive sense (energy). We all know what it's like to run out of energy in real life. You don't need to have any history with gaming to have a basic understanding of energy.

It's a very, very minor change. In fact, it's hard to make a smaller change. Hence why we want to give it a while for people to settle in and get used to it first.

[Stairc -Dan Felder]

I wonder if calling them 'energy pips' might be the best of both worlds - making it a little clearer what they are to new users while still making 'pips' a fine official abbreviation for the veterans.

[A1C Bronymous]

NO! COMPROMISE IS FOR THE WEAK!

That'd probably be fine, actually. I think the only serious problem you'd have if you change it from pips, officially, is that any time any vet submits a talent or trait dealing with pip change, they're going to use "pips", and then new kids are going to be confused, and if you correct the vet then they'll get mad, and stuff like that.

[SparkImpulse]

I wonder if calling them 'energy pips' might be the best of both worlds -

A coworker and I discussed this issue at lunch. Our final decision is "focus" makes more sense than "energy" ... because every one else's problems, of "how does slowing down give you more [focus]?" suddenly make sense ... and yes, focus points or focus pips, I say, to indicate that these are individual units, not a giant vat of butter.

On a completely different note ... is there a way to not auto-subscribe to a thread when you post to it? I'm starting to get tired of unsubscribing every time I pipe (err, pip?) up with a small comment about a thing, in a place.

[Paper Shadow]

On a completely different note ... is there a way to not auto-subscribe to a thread when you post to it? I'm starting to get tired of unsubscribing every time I pipe (err, pip?) up with a small comment about a thing, in a place.

I think there might be an option in the profile settings. In the preferences section, select "No" on the option "Always notify me of replies"...

[Ramsus]

I think energy pips would work. New people tend to conform to what more experienced people do (even when that's really stupid) so I don't think we'll see any major issues of noobs correcting vets and if so the response is a pretty simple "no" or such. Anything after that and they're just asking for a history lesson... which isn't exactly unreasonable.

I'm a bit confused, how did you introduce people to the system without the document? I can understand explaining concepts like pips by word alone but... nothing for which they are used which makes it a waste of your time to have bothered explaining the concept aloud in the first place.

I got an explanation about Horse-Sense from Tyger (thanks) and..... the explanation still results in a situation that makes no sense.

[Fury of the Tempest]

Energy PiP's sound weird... but it could work.

[SparkImpulse]

Energy PiP's sound weird... but it could work.

worse or better than my suggestion of Focus Points?

Still, either is better than flat "energy'

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