Dragon Quest - Baby Dragons as PCs

Okay guys, so I’ve noticed that we’ve got concepts for goats, cows, even pigs as playable races in Pony Tales – but no concepts for Baby Dragons? I am honestly appalled, appalled I say! After all, doesn’t everyone know Spike is best pony?

-Now, before I start yet another “best pony” topic, my real goal here is not to argue, but to consider how we could incorporate Baby Dragons as a playable character race in Pony Tales.

With that in mind, I’m thinking there are probably two types of dragon, not counting Sea Serpents – Earth Dragons like Spike that are born wingless; and Air Dragons – like the dozen or so hoodlums in Dragon Quest, who are born with wings.

Now I considered the idea of distinguishing between these two types, but then I thought that it’s just as likely that baby air dragons might not even have the wing strength to actually lift themselves off the ground, at least until they accumulate a decent amount of loot and get that all-important growth spurt going. So for now I’m not going to distinguish between Earth and Air Dragons. Whether a player decides to have wings or not is still their choice thematically however.

So here are the racial abilities I’ve thought of so far:


Mine!
All Dragons get the Gotcha! utility skill as a racial ability because of their greedy nature and tendency to horde things.

*OR*

Perhaps the Mine! Racial ability could allow Dragons to get a unique bonus to pick-pocketing and stealing? In either case, perhaps if the Dragon uses the skill too often they could get a cumulative penalty to knowledge and horse sense as they become more and more overwhelmed by their greed (and also get bigger and scarier in the process)? Perhaps this would be getting too complex, but it would be fluffy (;

Lava-proof
Dragons treat lava like water. They can swim comfortably in most forms of lava for hours at a time, and it usually won’t burn them to a crisp! Dragons also get a (+10? - I'm not sure how much is appropriate) bonus to endurance checks vs. hot/volcanic environments.

Magical Firebreathing
All Dragons have a special magical effect that goes along with their fire breath (such as Spike being able to send post across long distances). The magical effects of Dragons’ breath varies in much the same way cutie marks vary from pony to pony.

*I feel like this ability has the possibility to be the make or break ability of the Baby Dragon concept. I’m thinking it could either be as simple as allowing Dragons to have a magical effect from the Unicorn ability tree, or it could be as complex as making up a specific magical effect and agreeing on it with your GM before a campaign begins.

**Also, to give credit where credit is due, I got the magical firebreath idea from another Pony RP system on the net, Puzzles and Ponies. Check it out here if you're curious:

http://puzzlesandponies.deviantart.com/

-And there ya go. My current thoughts on the Baby Dragon player race. So what does everypony think?

Well, I for one like the idea. Maybe the magic breath could come with its own special talent list?

Or instead of having firebreathing as a racial trait, you could have a selection as utility traits?

Not entirely on topic, but seeing the discussion of the special fire breath, I'm not really sure it's ever actually been established that Spike's fire is actually anything other than normal fire, albeit green fire. We've only ever seen spike send scrolls by fire, so isn't it just as likely that it's not his fire that's special, but that the scrolls are enchanted to magically seek out the recipient when they are consumed by fire? We know his fire CAN destroy things, since when the dust on the Astronomer's Almanac made him sneeze, his fire destroyed it, but we ALSO know that it's not simply that he has to concentrate or intend for his fire to send something, since when Pinkie and Rainbow scared him with their prank, causing him to accidentally burn a pile of scrolls, they were all transmitted directly to Princess Celestia, rather than simply being burned. Although this could also mean the scrolls are enchanted to seek out Celestia when burned, rather than whoever they may be addressed to, but that's neither here nor there. As I said, this isn't entirely relevant, and I'm certainly not saying that having dragon breath with special properties is a bad idea, this is just food for thought.

Okay, more Free-form ref!

Over on Equestrian Legends, all dragons are descended from Ishtakhriot, who herself has some shapeshifting ability and chooses to appear as however the viewer expects a dragon to appear. This leads to "pure" dragons, which are intelligent, "neodragons" which are basically dragonish monsters, and hybrids like the Kirin (half dragon half pony) although that last group is pretty rare.

My point is it might be better to make a bunch of utility talents for the dragons and then give them "+3 utiltiy talents" as their trait. What do you guys think?

Flutterknight wrote:Not entirely on topic, but seeing the discussion of the special fire breath, I'm not really sure it's ever actually been established that Spike's fire is actually anything other than normal fire, albeit green fire. We've only ever seen spike send scrolls by fire, so isn't it just as likely that it's not his fire that's special, but that the scrolls are enchanted to magically seek out the recipient when they are consumed by fire? We know his fire CAN destroy things, since when the dust on the Astronomer's Almanac made him sneeze, his fire destroyed it, but we ALSO know that it's not simply that he has to concentrate or intend for his fire to send something, since when Pinkie and Rainbow scared him with their prank, causing him to accidentally burn a pile of scrolls, they were all transmitted directly to Princess Celestia, rather than simply being burned. Although this could also mean the scrolls are enchanted to seek out Celestia when burned, rather than whoever they may be addressed to, but that's neither here nor there. As I said, this isn't entirely relevant, and I'm certainly not saying that having dragon breath with special properties is a bad idea, this is just food for thought.

You actually bring up a good point, Flutter. I've considered this in the past, as after all, none of the dragons in Dragon Quest seemed to do anything with their firebreath but belch. It's definitely possible that either Celestia uses enchanted scrolls, or that Spike's breath itself has been enchanted by the princess.

Still, I honestly like the concept of magical breath, just because it makes Dragons more unique. Also, MLP hasn't said it works one way or the other, so right now it's still speculation - and where there's speculation, there's possibility!

Also, I could see MW's idea working, but the downside would be coming up with a bunch of Dragon-specific Utility Feats. I guess the three in my first post could be a start... Plus we could add in basic flying abilities if a player wanted to be an Air Dragon... Basic swimming abilities might be interesting too for Sea Serpents.

I've got one talent

Fabulosity Daily

For a skill check you may roll twice and take the combined result.

Based off of the sea serpent Stephen Magnet.

tygerburningbright wrote:I've got one talent

Fabulosity Daily

For a skill check you may roll twice and take the combined result.

Based off of the sea serpent Stephen Magnet.

*laughs* Fabulos indeed, but a little too fabulous. That's so broken it's hilarious.

I like the baby dragon ideas and good points are raised about spike's breath. The magical breath idea is wicked-cool, but possibly not substantiated as Flutterknight mentions. A good point btw, I hadn't thought about that before.

Baby Dragon is a great concept that we don't want to do wrong. Let's make sure we nail it.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:

I like the baby dragon ideas and good points are raised about spike's breath. The magical breath idea is wicked-cool, but possibly not substantiated as Flutterknight mentions. A good point btw, I hadn't thought about that before.

Baby Dragon is a great concept that we don't want to do wrong. Let's make sure we nail it.

Do you think we should scrap the Magical Dragonbreath idea? Or perhaps it could be optional, since a player could have had their breath enchanted?

Also, do you prefer Master Weaver's +3 dragon skills idea, or would you prefer certain specific skills that every dragon gets?

So far, I think that not distinguishing between dragons with wings and dragons without wings is a problem. Flight is a very, very useful ability and if Baby Dragons can fly, it needs to be taken into account. Unless you just want wings to be ornamental if they have them, the dragon completely unable to fly.

I think Magical Dragonbreath is a cool idea. Perhaps allow dragons to learn a single utility talent from the unicorn list, or come up with new ideas. More cool ideas, the better.

I don't think making a bunch of utility talents is the correct solution though. It requires a lot more design work and will feel a bit diluted compared to going with 1-3 flavorful racial traits.

It's one word....

Anyway, dragons have a heck of a lot of varience in fiction, and some people are gonna say "But X dragon in Y book could do Z!" That's why I threw up my idea.

Masterweaver wrote:It's one word....

Not sure what you mean by that.

Masterweaver wrote:Anyway, dragons have a heck of a lot of varience in fiction, and some people are gonna say "But X dragon in Y book could do Z!" That's why I threw up my idea.

It's a fine idea. I just don't think it's the correct solution, as it takes a lot of work to design a lot of talents, enough to make choosing 3 of them a meaningful choice. We can still make utility talents for dragons of course. And having one of the dragon's traits be modular is a fine thing (choose either flight, firebreath, a bonus to X or... etc).

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:

Masterweaver wrote:It's one word....

Not sure what you mean by that.

Sorry for miss-spelling your name Masterweaver, if that's what you meant. I also didn't mean to put your idea on the spot or anything. I just thought it would be helpful to get a better idea of what Stairc's looking for.

A modular trait though? In that case, perhaps a dragon could choose between flight like a griffon/pegasus, or something like 2 extra trained skills?

If the breath is going to stay in, I'd like all dragons to be able to get it, but what do you guys think about the other two racial ability ideas I've got so far? I'm not sure how useful the lava-proof would be, as that would really depend on the GM - no lava or heat would mean no usefulness.

I'd especially like to hear what you guys think of Mine! to, and even more so in the case of complicating Mine! with a steady penalty for abusing the ability. I feel like every Dragon should be good at stealing things, but they shouldn't want to steal things constantly - unless they want to become GM controlled, that is.

XandZero2 wrote:A modular trait though? In that case, perhaps a dragon could choose between flight like a griffon/pegasus, or something like 2 extra trained skills?

If the breath is going to stay in, I'd like all dragons to be able to get it, but what do you guys think about the other two racial ability ideas I've got so far? I'm not sure how useful the lava-proof would be, as that would really depend on the GM - no lava or heat would mean no usefulness.

I'd especially like to hear what you guys think of Mine! to, and even more so in the case of complicating Mine! with a steady penalty for abusing the ability. I feel like every Dragon should be good at stealing things, but they shouldn't want to steal things constantly - unless they want to become GM controlled, that is.

I like the idea of a modular trait, and as I was reading this thread another bit of possible fluff, and (what I think is) a great explanation for having a modular trait in the first place occured to me. What if the modular trait were to signify the circumstances of the dragon's hatching? This could allow for the modular trait to be a real, meaningful choice as, for example you could have something like "Hatched by Magic" give the previously discussed magical fire breath, or perhaps "Born to the Sky" could give the dragon functional wings (I'm sure someone could think of something for a dragon born to land bound dragons, but not by magic also, I just can't at the moment). Also, since nearly every canon ever has dragons as naturally magical creatures, this could be used as part of level progression, with the dragon being able to pick up one of the two abilities it wasn't "born" with at a later level, signifying the dragons growth and maturing over time. Perhaps a dragon born of magic was also born with wings, but wasn't innately able to use them for flight, over time, that dragon could either teach itself to fly or perhaps be coached by a Pegasus that it travels with, and thus, at the later level, pick up the ability to fly. Maybe the dragon born flying spent some of its adventuring life studying with Unicorns, thus learning how to enchant its own fire breath, gaining the magic breath ability. (Insert something for Earth dragons here.) This could allow for all dragons to *potentially* be able to have magic breath, fly, or (insert option 3 here), but would still require meaningful choice, since, in my view, they would ultimately have to choose one of them to do without (hopefully someone could come up with something for non-magicborn earthbound dragons to keep this meaningful).

I like the idea of "Mine!" because, although it would appear to make dragons lean towards a thiefy path, it would be balanced nicely by the penalties for overuse (assuming appropriate penalties, of course).

Sorry about the poorly formatted wall of text, words aren't exactly my strong suit. Also for the lack of a third option, in the words of Spike, "I got nothin'." =3

FK, I like your ideas on hatching. The only trick would be explaining how dragons born with no wings (like Spike) could eventually have the potential to get flying abilities... Perhaps they'd be like Chinese Dragons though, able to ride the winds without wings?

I'm going to have to take some more time to think of what an Earth Dragon could get, but I'm leaning towards that route right now... If anyone wants to throw out more ideas, please do.

BTW - after watching a certain episode again yesterday, I'm thinking of changing the name of "Mine!" to "SPIKE WANT!" and rephrasing it to -

Dragons get a +10 bonus to any checks made to take (or steal) things that don't belong to them, but every time they use this ability they get a cumulative - 2 penalty to Knowledge and Horse-Sense (due to the fact that the Dragon starts bulking out like the Hulk and speaking in mono-syllabic one liners). The negative effects last until the Dragon returns what it took or until it gets a nights rest.

Thoughts guys?

XandZero2 wrote:FK, I like your ideas on hatching. The only trick would be explaining how dragons born with no wings (like Spike) could eventually have the potential to get flying abilities... Perhaps they'd be like Chinese Dragons though, able to ride the winds without wings?

I'm going to have to take some more time to think of what an Earth Dragon could get, but I'm leaning towards that route right now... If anyone wants to throw out more ideas, please do.

BTW - after watching a certain episode again yesterday, I'm thinking of changing the name of "Mine!" to "SPIKE WANT!" and rephrasing it to -

Dragons get a +10 bonus to any checks made to take (or steal) things that don't belong to them, but every time they use this ability they get a cumulative - 2 penalty to Knowledge and Horse-Sense (due to the fact that the Dragon starts bulking out like the Hulk and speaking in mono-syllabic one liners). The negative effects last until the Dragon returns what it took or until it gets a nights rest.

Thoughts guys?

My general thoughts on the dragons without wings problem would either be something as simple as character planning (if you want to be a magic born dragon, but know you'll also want to be able to fly later on down the line, just give yourself wings from the outset) or perhaps having wings grow out over time, becoming *technically* functional wings prior to the actual level that would allow you to gain flight, to give the effect of enough time with functional wings to have passed that the dragon could've feasibly had enough practice/training in flight to reasonably gain the ability at proper time. The Chinese dragon concept would be a bit more difficult to work with, given what information about FiM dragons we do have, but it certainly wouldn't be impossible. Ultimately, I would think simple character planning would be the best solution, especially if the current leveling scheme from the leveling up thread is finalized, since most people would likely have a reasonable idea of what they *think* they'll want for major abilities at the outset, and even though they may change their minds later, it's always a good idea to start with a rough plan, and if your rough plan involves gaining flight later, starting with wings would be the logical choice. While this still leaves the potential of having a player of a magic born dragon planning to take (earth trait) later and then changing their mind or vice versa, it would probably happen less often than it might with no planning.

"SPIKE WANT!" sounds like it could work, but your description isn't terribly clear on whether this is an innate ability or something you choose to activate. If it's innate, then it would likely end up skewing dragon characters *away* from thief type characters simply because, though they would be much better at the job than other races, they would quickly end up under a very severe penalty simply by doing their jobs. If it's something you choose to activate, I could see it working fairly well for thief types. The only potentially major issue I could see with it is if you're playing a dragon, but not a thief type class, wherein it would range from an occasional minor perk in the rare instance where you need to steal something to being a complete waste of space if you have no intention or opportunity to steal anything. Similar to the lavaproof problem, if your DM/GM/Ponyhandler/whatever never sets up any situations that might give you a reason or need to steal something, it will end up as a racial feature that is basically just taking up space.

XandZero2 wrote:FK, I like your ideas on hatching. The only trick would be explaining how dragons born with no wings (like Spike) could eventually have the potential to get flying abilities... Perhaps they'd be like Chinese Dragons though, able to ride the winds without wings?

I'm going to have to take some more time to think of what an Earth Dragon could get, but I'm leaning towards that route right now... If anyone wants to throw out more ideas, please do.

BTW - after watching a certain episode again yesterday, I'm thinking of changing the name of "Mine!" to "SPIKE WANT!" and rephrasing it to -

Dragons get a +10 bonus to any checks made to take (or steal) things that don't belong to them, but every time they use this ability they get a cumulative - 2 penalty to Knowledge and Horse-Sense (due to the fact that the Dragon starts bulking out like the Hulk and speaking in mono-syllabic one liners). The negative effects last until the Dragon returns what it took or until it gets a nights rest.

Thoughts guys?

That Spike-Want idea is flavorful but very min-maxy. Something like that might be a utility, but we wouldn't want it as a racial trait.

I like the "how you were hatched" idea. Very flavorful. Let's do something with that.

As for how spike might eventually fly... Perhaps wings grow later?

EDIT - As for lavaproof, I look at that as similar to Weather-Crafting. It's a flavorful ability that will rarely have real use - just an extra freebie. I'm okay with that.

Flutterknight wrote:
My general thoughts on the dragons without wings problem would either be something as simple as character planning (if you want to be a magic born dragon, but know you'll also want to be able to fly later on down the line, just give yourself wings from the outset) or perhaps having wings grow out over time, becoming *technically* functional wings prior to the actual level that would allow you to gain flight, to give the effect of enough time with functional wings to have passed that the dragon could've feasibly had enough practice/training in flight to reasonably gain the ability at proper time. The Chinese dragon concept would be a bit more difficult to work with, given what information about FiM dragons we do have, but it certainly wouldn't be impossible. Ultimately, I would think simple character planning would be the best solution, especially if the current leveling scheme from the leveling up thread is finalized, since most people would likely have a reasonable idea of what they *think* they'll want for major abilities at the outset, and even though they may change their minds later, it's always a good idea to start with a rough plan, and if your rough plan involves gaining flight later, starting with wings would be the logical choice. While this still leaves the potential of having a player of a magic born dragon planning to take (earth trait) later and then changing their mind or vice versa, it would probably happen less often than it might with no planning.

Okay, sounds good then (especially if Stairc's cool with it). I just wanted to make sure we'd considered that possibility, and I haven't read the lvling up rules yet, so I wasn't familiar with the direction it was going in.

Flutterknight wrote: "SPIKE WANT!" sounds like it could work, but your description isn't terribly clear on whether this is an innate ability or something you choose to activate. If it's innate, then it would likely end up skewing dragon characters *away* from thief type characters simply because, though they would be much better at the job than other races, they would quickly end up under a very severe penalty simply by doing their jobs. If it's something you choose to activate, I could see it working fairly well for thief types. The only potentially major issue I could see with it is if you're playing a dragon, but not a thief type class, wherein it would range from an occasional minor perk in the rare instance where you need to steal something to being a complete waste of space if you have no intention or opportunity to steal anything. Similar to the lavaproof problem, if your DM/GM/Ponyhandler/whatever never sets up any situations that might give you a reason or need to steal something, it will end up as a racial feature that is basically just taking up space.

I was originally thinking it would be a racial ability, but if Stairc wants it to be a utility (or to scrap it entirely) that's fine too. I see what he means as far as min/maxing goes, but I don't think it would really skew dragon characters away from a thief type build since it only really hurts a theif's horse-sense (and I don't imagine thief-types using knowledge too heavily).

But on another topic (sort of), what if Earth Dragons got Naturally Skilled like Earth Ponies? It's not as flashy as enchanted breath or wings, but it would certainly fit Spike's character in MLP, as he seems to be a jack of all trades. Perhaps he has levels in Magic Dragon and Earth Dragon?

Perhaps gaining a single utility talent from any race would be a good way to handle the jack-of-all trade's element. Could explain spike taking a letter too. Or perhaps gaining +1 to all untrained skills, like the Applejack of All Trades utility.

But remember, we're not designing spike - we're designing baby dragons. With a very few racial traits as our budget, they should scream 'dragon'. I'd put the 'jack of all trades' thing lower on the priority list.

So, I'm thinking the Baby Dragon Player Race would currently look something like this:

Fireproof
Dragons are immune to lava and are unaffected by extremely hot or warm environments.

Hatchling Heritage
Upon character creation, players should choose one Hatchling Heritage, the conditions surrounding the event of their Dragon's egg hatching. Choose from:

Magic Heritage - Your Dragon was hatched through magical means (possibly during the initiation ritual of an apprentice trying to get into Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns). Because of this, you can not fly (either because it's wings are under-developed, or because you just lack them) - but you're also imbued with the magic that hatched you, granting one magical effect from the Unicorn utility talents that you can utilize with your firebreath.

Air Heritage - Your Dragon was hatched in a traditional Dragon Roost. You have wings and all the trimmings, as well as the racial ability Scions of the Sky.

Earth Heritage - ???Your Dragon was hatched to a family of Earth Dragons. You lack wings (but not because of any fault on your part, your parents were sure to remind you of that). You get a free Freaky Knowledge talent, since you have to find something other than flight to occupy your time.???

*Note: Later upon level advancement, you will be able to choose a second Heritage. This heritage won't reflect your Hatching, but instead your Dragon's direct ancestry. Players are recommended to carefully consider if they want to have wings or not from character creation, but if you have wings, you won't be able to use them until you get Air Heritage.

-------------------------------------------------

I didn't change the Earth Heritage up yet because I like the Jack of all Trades idea, but if we go with a single utility talent from any race, that would make the Magical Heritage useless. Perhaps Magical Dragons could choose more magical feats on lvl up to compensate? I don't know.

Yes, this is a good base template. I'm not entirely sold on it yet (and picking a second heritage at higher levels is odd - as other races don't get that. However, if the idea is to start with dragons being underpowered and eventually being the most powerful racial option - I can understand it. Still, picking an additional heritage is unusual - undermines the interesting circumstances of your birth).

I'm thinking the second Heritage as being more of a hidden bloodline showing up over time. I'm still not completely happy with it myself, but it would set them more apart from other races.

Edit: I just thought of something that might could work for Earth Dragons. How about making them able to dig? Magic Dragons get magic breath, Air Dragons get wings, and Earth Dragons get good digging skills? Spike did seem to be pretty proficient at it in the Diamond Dog episode.

Hmm... Maybe we could even do something similar to the flight rules, only with burrowing underground instead of soaring among the clouds?

XandZero2 wrote:I'm thinking the second Heritage as being more of a hidden bloodline showing up over time. I'm still not completely happy with it myself, but it would set them more apart from other races.

Edit: I just thought of something that might could work for Earth Dragons. How about making them able to dig? Magic Dragons get magic breath, Air Dragons get wings, and Earth Dragons get good digging skills? Spike did seem to be pretty proficient at it in the Diamond Dog episode.

Hmm... Maybe we could even do something similar to the flight rules, only with burrowing underground instead of soaring among the clouds?

Do we need earth dragons at all?

WE NEED ALL THE DRAGONS

An idea for Earth dragons:
One with Nature. These dragons are much more in tune with the world of Equestria than their fellow dragons. They have Animal Speak as a Racial without needing the prerequisite Animal Empathy.