Daily Ability Discussion

Hello there, Paper Shadow here. I had a thought recently: there's a lot of stuff in this system that we all play so much. So much, in fact, it's pretty hard to have a discussion about it all unless you were determined and/or insane. Usually, one might get brought up in a different thread, and have a little discussion done there, but that is too slow and all over for any effective discussing. So, as a bit of a pilot thread for the idea, I will be carrying out these daily ability discussions. Each day, I will post a small batch of abilities, and you guys can post on how you feel about them. Feel free to comment on previous day abilities, but do make it clear you are talking about them. Once again, this is a pilot for the idea: if it goes bad, it will be stopped, if it goes good, continued, and if it goes great, I may look into expanding it for other game aspects, like Combat stuff...

Disclaimer: Despite the fancy font colour of my name means I am technically a developer, and the fact that I'm considered as a non-combat developer and this is a thread about abilities, this isn't for balance reasons. No official gameplay changes are guaranteed to come out of this topic, either from my own comments or yours. This isn't "We, the devs, want to see what is overpowered and underpowered and how we should fix it by asking the players," this is "I, Paper Shadow, want to see what players value, how much they feel about the benefits of an ability is and if it is worth the cost," and I will be posting my own thoughts as a player, not a developer. Also, if this was being done by the entire developer group, it would be Wanderlust, because that is the main design focus. This thread is about Pony Tales since that is what everyone here plays and is experienced in (although if you are new to the system feel free to give your thoughts as well, I would appreciate it)...

Anyway, with that out the way, let us move onto the first two abilities. I will be putting my own comments in a spoiler so if you just want to focus on what you think when you see these and not what I think, it can be done...

- - -

You’re All My Very Best Friends (1)
Whenever you use a Magic Ability to boost an ally’s skill check, roll 1d20. On a 20, you gain a Magic Point.

I’ve Read A Lot About It (2) [Created by Philadelphus]
Choose a skill. You gain training in that skill. You may take this trait multiple times, choosing a different skill each time.

Paper's Thoughts:

I use Very best Friends on my twins, as they are entirely assist based- that's their purpose, and they have all four Magic talents that give bonuses. However, since that game is comatose, I haven't had any use out of it, and similarly, a 1/20 chance on the ONE time in ages you can actually use it? Not too terribly helpful.

However, I've read a lot about it is a fantastic talent for entirely non-magic characters. Most abilities are hard to flavor as "not magic", so this is a good filler to take, even multiple times if you want to be a mundane muggle badass.- just make sure you don't take Applejack of all trades.

Sounds like fun. Here's my thoughts:

The thing about YAMVBF is that it works whenever you spend a magic point to boost a check. Which includes Yee-Haw and it's counterparts. More importantly, it also includes Generosity, which, I admit, is my favorite element because of it's versatility. And honestly, of the 1 point fillers, I like this one better than, say, Scent Tracker, but I admit I wouldn't put it on a character that didn't have one of the extra point boosters.

With the other ability, I think it has it's purpose for allowing you to have a boost to a stat without having to boost the others in the same category. Sure it's not something I'd build a character around but I don't think it's meant to be.

First up, I must say thank you for starting this thread.

Paper Shadow wrote:You’re All My Very Best Friends (1)
Whenever you use a Magic Ability to boost an ally’s skill check, roll 1d20. On a 20, you gain a Magic Point.

Seems to be a bit of filler but it's not a bad thing for a single point. Works off of any ally boost and the idea of regaining Magic Points is nice since they aren't easy to come by. It's always available so it almost works as an upgrade. However, I will say that it's not a first pick for most of my builds and there's a number of my characters, even team focused ones, that don't have it.

I’ve Read A Lot About It (2) [Created by Philadelphus]
Choose a skill. You gain training in that skill. You may take this trait multiple times, choosing a different skill each time.

Simple, yet effective. Better for specialists than generalists but it can be used to either boost a strength or shore up a weakness. Wholly flavor neutral so there's no conceptual problems for its use. To be honest, some of the things that make it look bad may be slightly undercosted.

ZamuelNow wrote:First up, I must say thank you for starting this thread.

No problem. Thanks for responding...

- - -

The Most Dependable of Ponies (2)
When you successfully assist an ally on a skill check, you provide an additional +1 bonus to their roll. You may take this ability up to three times.
The Loyalist of Friends (2) – 1/Day
Prerequisite: The Most Dependable of Ponies
Once per day, upon successfully aiding an ally with a skill check, you may provide double the assist bonus you would otherwise provide. [*]

Herd Mentality (2)
Whenever an ally successfully aids you on a skill check, you gain an additional +1 bonus to the check.

Paper's Thoughts:

Paper Shadow wrote:The Most Dependable of Ponies (2)
When you successfully assist an ally on a skill check, you provide an additional +1 bonus to their roll. You may take this ability up to three times.
The Loyalist of Friends (2) – 1/Day
Prerequisite: The Most Dependable of Ponies
Once per day, upon successfully aiding an ally with a skill check, you may provide double the assist bonus you would otherwise provide.

A must for a team oriented characters and works for any flavor.  The daily is less useful by virtue of being a daily but it still has worth due to being a multiplicative buff instead of an additive, something there's not much of in the system.  The biggest issue with support as a whole is that forum usage seems a little binary.  Either players spam assists or they do it at all.  Half the time when they don't do it is because they outright overtake the roll. Well, I guess the other big issue is the murkiness of assists as a whole.

(Loyalest? Shouldn't that be "Loyalist"?)

In this case, no.  "Loyalest" is a grammatically incorrect version of "most loyal".

Herd Mentality (2)
Whenever an ally successfully aids you on a skill check, you gain an additional +1 bonus to the check.

In a lot of ways, it's sorta like an inverse Grandeur.  It can be "fire and forget" as long as you don't genuinely forget that it's on your sheet when someone assists you.  I like the empty flavor though what it lends itself to is concepts of those who gain power from allies like any number anime heroes.

I wonder if Herd Mentality's bonus is doubled from The Loyalist of Friends...

Never thought of that but when you look at the wording, it theoretically should.  This would increase its worth for those with companions.

Paper Shadow wrote:

The Most Dependable of Ponies (2)
When you successfully assist an ally on a skill check, you provide an additional +1 bonus to their roll. You may take this ability up to three times.
The Loyalist of Friends (2) – 1/Day
Prerequisite: The Most Dependable of Ponies
Once per day, upon successfully aiding an ally with a skill check, you may provide double the assist bonus you would otherwise provide.
[*]

Herd Mentality (2)
Whenever an ally successfully aids you on a skill check, you gain an additional +1 bonus to the check.

I still don't have a good enough grasp on mechanics, but I will say that I actually like using Dependable/Herd in builds. In fact, my favourite character build uses both of them (so there is always a +1 whoever is rolling), Grandeur (for another +1) and Tricks of the Trade, so my stats are a bit higher and more likely to help.

Honestly, my only worry has been about spamming assist rolls. I don't want to annoy players by forcing myself into situations, so I tend not to use it, but I do have a fondness for static background roll modifiers. I'm using Heart of Courage on another character for the same reason.

ZamuelNow wrote:I wonder if Herd Mentality's bonus is doubled from The Loyalist of Friends...


Never thought of that but when you look at the wording, it theoretically should.  This would increase its worth for those with companions.

I don't think it should actually. Loyalest of Ponies clearly states when "You" provide the bonus, not when they provide it to you.

Again, with my assist character(s), I made use of these, but I found that the minor +1 bonus made no difference, and stacking three of Most Dependable to get a +3, plus a one time +10, was only useful in the most extreme circumstances. If a bonus is really, really necessary, you can either get everyone to assist, or have someone drop a magic point- ESPECIALLY on the Magic assist abilities.

Herd Mentality never interested me. It's just really underwhelming of an effect. if I'm going to focus on boosting my own rolls, I'll get other ones that do it for myself, instead of relying on the team.

Freaky Knowledge (3)
Choose two very specific areas of interest such as sewing, fishing, animal-care, rodeos, bartering, lock-picking, the history of a particular town or something similar. Gain a +5 bonus to skill checks involving these specific areas of interest. This ability may be taken multiple times, though you must choose different areas of interest each time.

Applejack of All Trades (3) [Created by LoganAura]
Gain a +1 bonus to all untrained skills.
Tricks of the Trades (4)
Prerequisite: Applejack of All Trades
The bonus from Applejack of All Trades increases to +2 for all untrained skills.

Paper's Thoughts:

Paper Shadow wrote:(Loyalest? Shouldn't that be "Loyalist"?)

-loyalist
noun
1. a person who is loyal; a supporter of the sovereign or of the existing government, especially in time of revolt.

"The Loyalist of Friends" is a completely different talent for campaigns running a civil war which gives bonuses to people who stay loyal to Celestia.

Snark aside, this is interesting reading. I'll be watching this thread.

Paper Shadow wrote:Freaky Knowledge (3)
Choose two very specific areas of interest such as sewing, fishing, animal-care, rodeos, bartering, lock-picking, the history of a particular town or something similar. Gain a +5 bonus to skill checks involving these specific areas of interest. This ability may be taken multiple times, though you must choose different areas of interest each time.

One of the most important Abilities in the entire game.  Sometimes misused (persuasion powers really shouldn't be valid subjects for it) and sometimes ignored but it's the Ability that gives players the ability to specialize in a particular trade. Whether the system has a certain Ability or not, players get an option for making their character their own.  General Knowledge skill in WL really isn't a proper substitute but it theoretically could be a decent compliment.  Experience with similar custom skill concepts are why I like the fact that it exists but get disappointed when people try to min-max it without even trying to at least be a little creative.

Applejack of All Trades (3) [Created by LoganAura]
Gain a +1 bonus to all untrained skills.
Tricks of the Trades (4)
Prerequisite: Applejack of All Trades
The bonus from Applejack of All Trades increases to +2 for all untrained skills.

I'm okay with AJoAT since evenly statted players should have some options.  Granted, I feel most of that should fall on the GM since a specialist should have their weak points challenged so their weaknesses are just that. Thus, Magecraft needed to die in a fire and several skills needed revamping or redefinition.

TotT pushes the envelope so that it's less of a valid choice and more of a must take.  It's not outright broken but it sits in the uncomfortable "well...at least it's not X" position where you can compare it to more problematic powers that are often soft and hard banned in games.  It's the type of thing that would benefit from WL's tier system since the concept of "Jack of all Trades, Master of the Universe" is less of an issue later in a campaign when players can do so many other silly things to the fabric of reality.

I've mentioned before builds that focus less on active or basically magical abilities, and more on skills. And those three are Staples. You're definitely right, there is no build that wouldn't benefit from one or more of them. A tremedously specialized, meticulously built character that absolutely has no use for the bonuses across all skills nor points to spend on the abilities? Maybe. But you don't get to be that specialized without Freaky Knowledge anyway.

Sweet and Elite (3)
You’re the type of pony everypony should know. You're marginally famous, and get special consideration at fancy restaurants parties and shows. How this talent is implemented will depend on how you work it out with your DM.

Specialist (3)
You start with each Attribute at 3 at character creation and gain 8 extra points to allocate between them (10 is still the maximum you can have in a given Attribute).

Overachiever (3)
You can have a maximum of 12 points in any Attribute rather than 10.

Paper's Thoughts:

Specialist and Overacheiver go along with what I've said previously about skill based builds. However, for some reason I fell like they are a little... less impactful. I don't consider getting them that often, unless I just have points to spend. And actually, Unless you combine it with Best of the Breed and Overacheiver, I find Specialist to be nearly useless. I like my characters to have some skill across the board, rather than minmax a few and dump the rest. Any time I've used Specialist Ive found myself having at least 5 in my lowest attributes anyway, so nothing was achieved by taking it. Overacheiver, similarly, would require support from the other two, or else I would find myself maxing at 10 regardless. Specialist, Overachiever and Best of the Breed are definitely tandem abilities, which I guess is why they would be less popular- all of them together drains a third of your ability points off the bat.

Sweet and Elite, while I like the idea, just seems sort of useless to me. It requires a lot of backstory building, coordination, and really if you have all of that then why do you even need a talent? The only thing I see this really being a thing for is because someone at some point was jealous of the special treatment another PC got because that PC was a noble's daughter, and he wasn't. This is a Mechanical option with only flavor and gameplay benefits, and most of the time that shouldn't be necessary.

As somebody who does really enjoy Sweet & Elite... I like it a lot. It's basically a personal boon that can work HOWEVER you and the GM wish to have it work... I've had it work in one game to be "have it make my character be mr. moneybags with little to no real fame." which was a hoot play with. (even though in that game went insane in other ways thanks to both PCs and the GM being half-insane)

As long as the GM is willing to make it feel like something worthwhile and effect the plot to some degree. Or something... Then it's a good talent.

Paper Shadow wrote:Sweet and Elite (3)
You’re the type of pony everypony should know. You're marginally famous, and get special consideration at fancy restaurants parties and shows. How this talent is implemented will depend on how you work it out with your DM.

I like it and am glad the system has it.  It really does rely on the GM to how much you get out of it though I usually do try to give players a decent bit for it.  My primary problem is that it only has one rank.  Local entrepreneur is a whole different level than Bruce Wayne.  However, this is usually only an issue if two players of vastly different levels of status have it.

Specialist (3)
You start with each Attribute at 3 at character creation and gain 8 extra points to allocate between them (10 is still the maximum you can have in a given Attribute).

Overachiever (3)
You can have a maximum of 12 points in any Attribute rather than 10.

Meh, min-max stuff.  Don't directly have issue with them but it's usually someone boosting stats then scrambling to cover weaknesses rather than someone simply having thematic strengths and weaknesses.

Instant-Party (3) – 1/Day
Preparation Time: 5 Minutes
You somehow come up with enough scrumptious food and tasty drinks to satisfy six people for the day. Each player participating in the party gains a +1 morale bonus to all skill checks for the next hour and may roll a d20. If the result is a natural 20, that player gains a Magic Point.
Party Cannon! (2)
Prerequisite: Instant-Party
Players now gain a Magic Point upon rolling either a 19 or a 20 on the d20.

Hop, Skip and Jump (3) – 2/Day
On your next Athletics or Acrobatics check, you may roll 3d10 instead of 1d20 and take the total value of the three dice.
You Can Make It If You Try (2)
Prerequisite: Hop, Skip and Jump
You may use Hop, Skip and Jump one additional time per day. Also, you now roll 3d12 instead of 3d10 and take the total value.

(Will add comments when less busy...)

Party Cannon seems like it was definitely made with a tabletop campaign in mind. Most games (even mine, where I supposedly have a hunger mechanic) don't require the players to eat, so the primary context of the ability doesn't matter. The flat +1 bonus to all skills is always appreciable, though I find that over the course of the session, or a few days in a PbP, most players forget that its even there- much like bonuses from Grandeur, etc. And I'm pretty sure in the two years I've been playing, I've seen someone get a magic point off of it about twice. It has its benefits, to be sure, but I wouldn't ever take it. Let someone else use it.
Party cannon barely improves it, too, so I don't really care for it.

I do very much like hop skip and jump. I've played an all muscle athletics character, and made good use of that skill. The trade off that you don't have a chance of getting a crit success is fairly mitigated by the inability to crit fail, as well as put up BIIIIG numbers. Even if its overkill, something still feels great about consistently rolling above 40 on athletics checks- all the way up to above 70, with some help.
And of course, You Can Make It If You Try succeeds where party cannon failed by genuinely improving on Hop Skip and Jump. I wouldn't take these for most characters, but if you have an extra 3 and decide you want to be able to flip a car every once and a while, they're very good options.

Paper Shadow wrote:Instant-Party (3) – 1/Day
Preparation Time: 5 Minutes
You somehow come up with enough scrumptious food and tasty drinks to satisfy six people for the day. Each player participating in the party gains a +1 morale bonus to all skill checks for the next hour and may roll a d20. If the result is a natural 20, that player gains a Magic Point.
Party Cannon! (2)
Prerequisite: Instant-Party
Players now gain a Magic Point upon rolling either a 19 or a 20 on the d20.

Seems more fantasy game focused ("Wizard needs food badly!") or based off of specific ponies.  Still interesting in its limited usage.  Really needed the nerf down to just an hour since the general consensus was to just spam it at the start of the day than use it at an appropriate time.  The MP gain is a rare enough occurrence for Party Cannon to not be worth it most of the time.  However, as a d20 roll, there are ways to manipulate it with some talents.

Hop, Skip and Jump (3) – 2/Day
On your next Athletics or Acrobatics check, you may roll 3d10 instead of 1d20 and take the total value of the three dice.
You Can Make It If You Try (2)
Prerequisite: Hop, Skip and Jump
You may use Hop, Skip and Jump one additional time per day. Also, you now roll 3d12 instead of 3d10 and take the total value.

Quite useful and maybe even mildly underrated.  It doesn't just remove the chance of a nat 1, it outright increases the minimum roll.  Plus, it's an athletic talent in a system that feels relatively magic focused (which is probably it's own separate discussion).

Um... There is nothing to edit or mess with a pure-d20 roll... Like at all... It's not a "skill check" from what I see. So it's basically got extremely nerfed into only being good if the dice are feeling like giving out nat-20s that day. Or the party NEEDS that +1 bonus... So yeah...


And to the other talents, they're awesome... And little known factor, if you roll a total equal to 20... IT'S COUNTS AS A NAT-20... The Devs said such, so it's true... Unless they've changed their mind on this topic, again....

Xel Unknown wrote:Um... There is nothing to edit or mess with a pure-d20 roll... Like at all... It's not a "skill check" from what I see. So it's basically got extremely nerfed into only being good if the dice are feeling like giving out nat-20s that day. Or the party NEEDS that +1 bonus... So yeah...

There are actually a few that target "a d20 roll outside of combat" instead of "skill check". Most of them come from Destinies.

And little known factor, if you roll a total equal to 20... IT'S COUNTS AS A NAT-20... The Devs said such, so it's true...

Which makes no sense. I mean, I remember when it was ruled though I've never agreed with it.

Xel Unknown wrote:Um... There is nothing to edit or mess with a pure-d20 roll... Like at all... It's not a "skill check" from what I see.

Awesomeness, Predestined, Very Best Friend: Never Falter!, Metagamer: It Was Always Rolled That Way, and Metagamer: The Power Was Inside You All Along all affect the d20 directly. A few other abilities/destiny options exist but they wouldn't be usable for this situation.

You sure? Cause I swore they were all wrote to work clearly and intended to only work on "skill checks"... And even if not... I don't see how good it is if you use it in this context, seems like a total waste in my opinion

They make it a point to distinguish between a d20 roll and a skill check. I still wouldn't waste it on an Instant party roll, though- you'd have to reroll for another 20, vs spending the ability on another d20 roll for just a successful roll.

Xel Unknown wrote:I don't see how good it is if you use it in this context, seems like a total waste in my opinion

Here's where things get a little interesting. Using the re-roll talents on this may be of little worth since a nat 1 on an actual skill check is a far bigger problem. However, the stored rolls like Predestined shifts things a bit since there may be situations where you want the extra MP instead of the crit due to other abilities. It actually requires the player to make a decision. And the decision just may be that the crit is better, especially with Spectacular Success taken into account, but an actual decision is there.