Supply and Demand: Craftonomics!

For the short version, just skip to the next post.

Wall o' text:

Wow, looking back, that's a huge wall of text. I think I can understand why no one's replied yet. Let me see if I can sum it up better.

Instead of keeping track of absolute amounts of cash, characters have Gold points (GP). When you buy something, depending on how expensive it is, you roll a barter check with an appropriate DC. If you fail, you lose a GP. If you sell something, you also roll a barter check, and gain a GP if you pass.

^The main point of the above post in four sentences.

Now that that's been clarified, we need to consider how this relates to crafting, and combat items. First, we need to assign a value to GP that correlates with gold in the combat item system. I'm thinking each GP is roughly equal to 200 gold, so that a transaction worth ~100 gold would require a barter check of DC10 to see if you lose/gain a GP (depending on if you're buying or selling). For more expensive things, one way would be to deal with it in 100 gold chunks, all with DC10. Alternatively, it could be resolved in a single roll where a result of 10 is worth one 200th the gold value (actual value for 200 gold = 1 GP, e.g. 1000 gold becomes 5 GP), with the cost scaling the further away from the DC you are, up to/down to a maximum/minimum of one-and-a-half/half cost. Quick example: you sell an item worth 1000 gold. On a roll of 10, you gain 5 GP, on a 20 you gain 7 GP, on a 1 you gain only 3 GP (rounding toward the average sell price).

Since the current system has players start off with 3000 gold at level 1, the equivalent would be 15 GP.

For crafting, we can ignore the type of item being crafted, and just skip straight to quality (and materials, which themselves will cost). The quality provides the base value, multiplied by the material. The DC to craft an item depends on the quality. Crafting also takes time, and tools, so it's not like it's something that can be done all the time.

DC	Quality	Value
<10	Failure	N/A
10	Worthless	1GP
15	Crude	2GP
20	Shoddy	3GP
25	Poor	4GP
30	Average	5GP
35	Fancy	6GP
40	Elegant	7GP
45	Exquisite	8GP
50	Masterwork	9GP
55	Artifact	10GP

Keep in mind, 5 GP is equivalent to a 1000 gold item, so this table only goes up to items worth 2000 gold (for items made with a material value multiplier of x1). The materials themselves will cost money, so you may actually lose money if you don't craft a high enough quality item.

So far, I've only dealt with the value of items. As for form and function, as long as they aren't combat items, you should be able to RP their use. Off the top of my head, I'm going to say that using an item will get penalties if it's less than Average quality, and bonuses for greater than Average quality, from -4 for Worthless to +5 for Artifact.

As for combat items... I dunno. This goes against my own nature, but the best bet might be to just keep combat items as a separate system altogether.

Well, I always thought that having items that perform both combat and utility purposes would come to pass. And I agree that the system currently in-place is a little wonky, as it makes the DM have to do a fair amount of work to try and make some sort of feasible market system for their world. Not to mention that the DM will have to come up with their own sort of skill challenge whenever a player says: "Oh, I want to try forging my own sword." or "I want to enchant my cloak."

And since the items are re-flavourable, it makes sense that enchanters and smiths could end up making the same effective equipment, whether it's 'chainmail' or 'robes of protection'. And because of that I think this would be a realm where the combat and utility would HAVE TO overlap. I mean it already does in the game. We use money for equipment and for out of combat purposes (currently at the DMs whim, though I'm sure that utility items are being considered by the designers). The gold in the game is already the shaky bridge between the two halves of Ponytales.

I personally love the idea of crafting, heck I even made that Alchemist crafting chart earlier as a way of making utility items. I have some questions though. Would crafting be a skill itself? Or would it use something like "your choice of mechanics or arcana."? Would it be a utility talent that players could get or could anyone do it without a utility talent? Can you use a magic point on it? Would you be able to take Freaky Knowledge of 'Arms-crafting'?

So basically, I really like the idea, and I want it to go somewhere. Even though I've been a little too daunted to actually make the system myself, I had been giving it some thought for a while. I'm glad you brought it up. I think it could actually come to work as a system that acts as a sturdy bridge between the utility and combat halves of Ponytales and helps solidify the game.

SilentBelle wrote:The gold in the game is already the shaky bridge between the two halves of Ponytales.

Actually, the way we've been playing it so far is that we only get gold at a level up. We don't find gold at all, so utility and combat are still completely separate. I don't know if this is what Dan had in mind when he created the item system, I was kind of more under the impression that the listed gold amounts were DM advice on how quickly to dole out gold based on level. If they do add utility items, though, yeah, the separation of church and state utility and combat will begin breaking down.

That said, if we do decide to join the two systems together, I actually thought of a really easy way to do so. About the only thing you can't reflavor are plot items. Purchasing items from shops (which is I assume how we've been doing it so far), you can always reflavor the item but keep the same effect. You can do the same with crafting. When you craft an item, you can imbue it with the properties of a combat item of equal or lesser value. All there is to it.

That said, you really shouldn't be using an item for both combat and utility, although you might be able to make a case for this in particular situations, like a grappling hook attack.

Now, I actually think this is kind of dull. When you craft an item, you should be able to create it the way you want, instead of simply choosing from a list of already existing items. What we really need is a point buy system for item stats, both in utility and combat. We already have an easy shorthand for determining points: GP (although, strangely, this implies items made out of gold will be much more effective due to the value increase, maybe we can say it's enchanted).

Creating a point buy system for all potential abilities might be a little too large of a task, though. Although, maybe we could just make items grant a utility talent (example: jetpack that lets you fly), give a boost to a skill (example: a professional set of lockpicks), OR be a combat item. If we can figure out a way to convert combat talents to items, then we have a lot more to choose from. Also, effects like regen, temp HP, initiative boost, etc. all already exist in some form or another, so adapting them to a point buy system shouldn't be too far out.

Huh, this actually becomes much easier to handle when you throw simulation out the window and focus on a purely numerically balanced system.

Yeah, making the 'attribute points' of an item based on what they currently cost. That would be easy enough for the combat items. Then we would just need to apply the same formula to utility items and require that any item you make have the same number of points available for the utility aspect and the combat aspect so that money doesn't get spent all on one side of the system or the other.

First and foremost, the equip slots for combat items would remain the same as it is now. As for utility items, having 50 items kind of makes the character irrelevant, so I think we need to consider that, too. Here's my idea: 3 Clothing slots and 4 Tool slots. Clothing is anything that grants a passive effect just by wearing it, tools are anything that has to be actively used to benefit. Clothing items in your pack grant no benefits. Tool items in your pack can still be used, but have an extra 30 seconds of prep time. Alternatively, roll Xd20, where X is the total number of items in your pack, and add that much to the prep time of the tool.

If we want to limit the number of items being carried, then it might be time to introduce encumbrance rules. I won't dive into that just yet, though. Easiest way might be to just set a hard limit on the number of items a character can carry.

So, as far as converting combat talents into items, we have this:

Spoiler:

Double the number of dice, and make it 1/battle, for 1000 gold/5 GP. Of course, this is also a [+1] pip ability, so let's see what else we have.

Spoiler:

Roughly the same power, with -1 in pip cost, with the option to boost at the cost of pips, 2/battle, and minor action, all for 2000 gold/10 GP.

Hmm, looking at one Dan's posts in the item subforum, it sounds like weapons are meant to be equivalent to a regular combat talent. So it would be doable to just have a weapon grant access to a combat talent while equipped. But I think there's more tweaks we can do, too. If we limit the uses per battle or adjust the pip cost, we can make it more powerful or have more options, or change it to a minor action. As for the cost to imbue an item with such an ability, it looks as though it might correlate to pip cost, alternatively, we can boost the power of a talent by increasing the GP cost of the item. Case in point:

Spoiler:

Exceptions may apply, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to allow [+] pip moves on items at all, except for those chosen from the list of preexisting items (which might be due for updating/reworking). You can get the talent in question on the item, but you'll have to tweak it so that it's at least a [0] cost move. Perhaps at some point we should work out a fast and easy way to alter combat talents so that their effects correlate to pip cost (for example, making a version of Fireball that costs [-2], or [-5], or [-10]). Then all we'd need for combat items is to correlate pip cost to GP cost. For now, here's a fast and easy rule: 5 GP for [0], with +2.5 GP cost for every [-1] to pip cost (5 GP for [0], 7 GP for [-1], 10 GP for [-2], etc.).

Now, as for utility items, at first I was thinking they should also have combat abilities unless you paid for them separate, but I actually see no problem with this as long as they take up both a utility and combat slot.

Now remember, we defined clothing as granting passive effects while tools only benefit when used. As such, clothing will cost a lot more than tools. To grant a utility talent, I'm thinking a 10 GP cost for clothing (allowing you to use the talent as long as you are wearing the item) and 5 GP for tools. You can take this multiple times, which is useful if, say, you want an item that lets you fly without sucking at it, as you must respect talent prerequisites. Alternatively, you can get items that don't respect prerequisites, but they don't do anything unless you have either the prerequisite talents yourself, or have them on different items.

Items should maybe not have talents that require a Magic point to activate.

As for skill bonuses, we have I've Read A Lot About It (training to one skill, so +3) and Freaky Knowledge (+5 to two specific situations). For a blanket boost to a skill, we can just have an item apply I've Read A Lot About It. For a boost to specific situations, we can 1 GP per +1 for clothing, and 1 GP per +2 for tools.

Oh! And one-shot items! So far, we have clothing costing double that of a tool for the same effect. One-shot items, let's call them potions, occupy Tool slots, but are much cheaper to make than tools, costing 1/5 that of tools, but are destroyed after use. Hmm, idea: any utility talent that requires a Magic point cannot be made into a tool or clothing, only as a potion, in which case it's single-use (it also costs double that of a normal utility talent). For talents that last some unspecified duration (flight comes to mind), the effect lasts up to 5 minutes. You can buy more uses of that talent to extend the time.

I also had a thought for materials. It doesn't really matter what the material is, unless you want to track how much the players buy so that you can adjust the price to account for supply and demand. Otherwise, you can just wing it, referring to it mechanically by its value multiplier, and in-flavor as whatever you want. Wood that's worth more than gold? Sure, why not? As for the price of materials, in order to craft an item, you will need 3 GP (equivalent to Shoddy) times the value multiplier worth of material to craft an item. This means if you craft a Shoddy item, you break even with the value. If you craft a Worthless or Crude item, it's actually worth less than the raw materials.

HOWEVER, if the player crafts a bunch of the same item and tries to sell it, the price should drop due to increasing supply. On the other hoof, you might motivate players by informing them of a shortage of a certain good in a certain town, driving the price UP. And of course, shopkeepers will probably have all the talents that let them get better prices, making it harder for players to turn a profit from crafting if they aren't specifically built as a businesspony. And DO keep track of how much money has changed hooves and where: a shopkeeper might just not have enough money, or be willing to buy what the players are selling.

As for the skill used, well, it will probably depend on the type of item being crafted. Metal weapons and armor will probably be an Athletics check. Things like lockpicks or machinery would be a Mechanics check. Composing music or writing a book would be a Persuasion check. Alternatively, a book might require some kind of Knowledge check, depending on the subject of the book.