Let's talk about Dazed

So here's the deal. Looking at our numbers, Dazed hasn't been balanced for correctly. The fact is, it gives Vuln 2, which means when applied to a single target it can usually be worth 6-10 damage or more, not counting the action stopping. This was added because dazed was based on 4e, which caused a creature to grant combat advantage, which at that time was a +2 to attack rolls. CA was something we added in board, and we usually change it to vuln 2 in skype, since CA is usually attained by positioning.

But, Dazed is undervalued because of it, now that we're looking more closely at numbers. However, there are multiple ways to fix this problem:
1) Dazed stays the same, and low cost moves that give dazed get nerfed (Family Recipie and You Will Die won't be, considering they give their own vuln anyway)
2) The vuln goes down to vuln 1, and the nerfs are much less extreme, but still needed in some cases
3) The vuln gets cut, and Dazed becomes a not-so-powerful way of restricting enemy reactions, and stuff doesn't have to be nerfed so much, if at all.

Things that are too powerful with Dazed as is:

[-3] Explosive Arrow - Standard Attack
Deal 1d8 damage to target creature. At the beginning of that creature’s next turn, it and all creatures adjacent to it take 1d10 damage and are dazed (save ends).
^ would at least need to not be (save ends)

[-1] Force Bolt - Standard Attack
Deal 1d10 damage to target creature and that creature is dazed until the end of its next turn.

[-7] Hammer of Thunder - Minor Utility
You conjure a Thunder Hammer in your hands.
You can dismiss the Thunder Hammer as a free action. While you are wielding a Thunder Hammer, you cannot use your other combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

• [+1] Ringing Blow - Standard Attack
  Deal 1d12 damage to target creature, and that creature is dazed until the end of your next turn.
  ^More powerful than the -1 equivalent above
  

[-2] Below the Belt - Reaction Utility
Trigger - You deal 5 or more damage to a creature
Effect - That creature is dazed until the end of your next turn.
^If this is the equivalent of a +1 standard... not super-crazy op like Ringing Blow, but still a tad much. Probably wouldn't be touched under the Vuln 1 change.

I understand Daze can be a good way of getting the Vuln for Sneak Attack and things, so I'm leaning toward option 2 myself

Mostly dislike the idea as a whole of this nerf... But I think I'd learn to live with the vul 1 option.

I think you should cut the vuln out of dazed as vuln is already its own mechanic. Then you can just add in the appropriate amount of vuln to talents that would grant it.

Edit: I think people are going to want to keep the save ends on Explosive Arrow, so with that one you may want to lower the vuln to 1?

Option 2 seem rather reasonable but what Ramsus proposed while it would require more work would likely be the best option.

I'm currently playing a character whose combat talents are set up to abuse Explosive Arrow, and I'm only interested in the (AoE) Dazed for the 2 Vulnerability (since we have yet to encounter a monster whom Dazing would really inconvenience). From a simplicity and elegance standpoint, it might be the best idea to remove the Vuln from Dazed entirely as Ramsus proposed, and add it back manually (specifically labeled as Vuln) to combat talents that inflict Dazed where appropriate.

On the topic of Explosive Arrow, having any Vuln it inflicts go from (save ends) to "the end of the creature's next turn" would be fine by me. That's almost better in a way, because I'd no longer have to worry about it saving against the Vuln before I can hit it with Exploit Weakness when my turn rolls around.

In a lot of cases, Daze can be more crippling than Stun, as far as combat combos and strategies are concerned. The Vulnerability just seems like an unnecessary factor (and at times, not even a real threat when compared to the limiting effects). I think dropping vulnerability altogether would be fine. As long as the daze still exists as a status effect that can be used in conjunction with others, those who use it in Combos will still get their mileage out of it, and if they're playing off the vuln, then they can switch to something else to keep that up.

It's very weird that Daze is often better than Stun due to its vuln 2.

Daze is often better than Stun WITHOUT its Vuln 2. The Vuln 2 is just the extra kick while you're down.

I don't really agree with that assessment myself. *shrug*

Bronymous wrote:Daze is often better than Stun WITHOUT its Vuln 2. The Vuln 2 is just the extra kick while you're down.

...but Stun does everything Daze does and more except for the vuln...

Bronymous' reasoning is that Dazed screws up your combo where Stunned doesn't. But, this is incorrect. Stunned screws up a lot of the same combos in a worse way (At least you can still do *something* while Dazed and some builds are actually completely unaffected by it. Just not many these days.) and some of them even more severely. There is a chance that being Dazed might put you in a position to not gain a pip you need or something and throw off your five round plan's timing in some way but, Stunned can do that too. If being limited to only one action causes serious problems to the point where it would be better to do nothing.... you can just make the choice to do nothing. Though more likely you'll just want to delay your turn to give someone the opportunity to remove your Dazed condition.

Yeah, having one action is always better than, well, nothing at all

I should also note that Dazed is a somewhat lopsided status effect. In fact, the only one (that's officially anyway). It's rather more damaging to PCs than it usually is to enemies. (Though this depends on the GM, still it is assured useful on the PCs to the extent the GM can see and anywhere between crazy good to completely useless in the hands of PCs with no way for them to know unless they can see the future.)

I think it's the different of "Controllable Helplessness" (daze) to "Can't do anything at all but wait" (stun)

Sure, daze allows you to do something on your turn. But you feel more helpless when you can do a minor thing instead of being able to use your full combat build at your turn. Like you go though being able to do something, but you feel restrained wanting to do MORE, but you can't because of daze. With stun you more are just waiting... For when it wears off, which yeah, does mess up combos sometimes, but more in a "can't do this now but needs to wait till later" type of event. Which because of how quickly combat is ment to go, at worst you just had to wait one extra turn before an enemy get's dead. While trying to factor in Daze somehow feels more painful to deal with.

So, are we in agreement about this then? After all, things will be *more* balanced without vuln, and will make the fewest power changes this way

I like this.

I also do like the vul effects on most of those talents as well... I'd suggest at least Ninja Tricks getting to keep doing a 1 vul effect. Becuase enemies getting daze might or might be even DO anything for them. While PCs getting daze it's kinda hard hitting.

what's Ninja Tricks?

Oh derp... I mean Below the Belt. a friend of mine uses it with the flavor of it being called "Ninja Tricks" which make me derp there somehow. I blame my avatar.

So like.... any progress on this stuff?

Ah yes, this should go into effect pretty soon. Thanks for reminding me.
We're on the cusp of getting Spelltacular ready so what time I've had for this has been put to this week's expansion, but it should be a fairly simple re-balancing for most stuff.