Pinkie's Brew, full effects...

Bronymous, I don't think Proc was saying he wanted the Utility talents to stay race-locked, just the ones related to the unique racial traits.

I'd also like to point out that the method I suggest doesn't prevent people from playing Pegasi or Unicorns the way they are. It just lets people who want to have different racial features have them and not be denied them because someone else thinks their opinion on what races should and shouldn't have is more important than theirs.

I've thought this way basically since I showed up but, I didn't say anything because I didn't think anyone would agree with me or that Stairc would be willing to make such a big change. But since we're having a discussion about this now, I think I'll say this. Anyone who is saying we should chain specific mechanics to specific concepts, where we already all know that anyone can come up for a flavor reason for their concept to have just about any mechanic possible, is basically saying that everyone else should be forced to play characters the way they want, as if their opinion on what people should play somehow has more value than the person who is making that character.

Bronymous, I find it especially funny that you of all people want to flavor-lock mechanics when according to you that is exactly why you don't like 4th ed D&D.

It's not like we can't easily say "this setup of racial traits is a normal Pegasus" without saying "this is what every Pegasus must have".

Let me provide an example following my earlier suggestion of racial trait point buy:

So we have Flight (a two point cost trait) which grants what would be the first two Utility talents for for the flying tree of talents.
and we have Weather-Crafter (a one point cos trait).
There we have your normal Pegasus.

Now say someone wants an Earth Pony who flies via a hoverboard or something strange like that (who may or may not be named Brash Landing)
That character's race could look like so:
Flight (2 racial trait points)
Epic Pwny (1 racial trait point)

Does the person who wants to make that second character deserve to be told "No, you cannot make that character because I don't want people to play flying Earth Ponies for any reason ever"? Should they be forced to take Freaky Knowledge and Friend in Deed instead of Flight even though they don't really care about having those and are already planning on spending three Utilities on top of that just to fly really well? In my opinion, freedom of creativity is more important than mechanics confining flavor. Afterall, as Stairc pointed out, Pinkie Pie can basically teleport, so who are you to say that nobody can make an Earth Pony (or Pegasus or Sheep or Zebragriff) who can?

Note that despite my only listing 3 points of racial traits on those two simple examples, I currently favor actually giving 4. The issue of pony/non-pony skill setup would have to be addressed too but, I'll save commentary for that if and when we get to that point.

For what it's worth, I'm all in favor of keeping the racial barriers up, or at least not dissolving them entirely, pretty much for the reasons that Proc has already stated. Each race needs its own cool, special abilities if they want to remain special.
That said, I can certainly see, and even encourage, flight becoming open to Everypony, as implemented in the Living Legends system - after all, flight is already shared between three races (four if you include changelings, which you totally should), so it seems like it's halfway there anyway. Keeping the natural "leg up" for the winged races still seems fair to me, considering that a similar system is effectively already in place for the Earth Ponies' Freaky Knowledge. But I suggest treading carefully when considering opening up the less common racial talents.

However, I suggest that someone sets up one of those neat survey things, preferably in some way that will draw the attention of the entire forum. That way we can see percentages of who's in favor of keeping the system as-is, who'd prefer shifting the more "common" options over to Everypony, and who wants to tear down the racial barriers entirely.

I don't understand at all why you guys prefer races being special to people having the freedom to make their character special by making whatever they want. This system is way better set up for the later than the former.

Though, I suppose my favored position was doomed the moment I said I did.

Thanks for all the great feedback people. And yep, we'll definitely expand this to a global announcement later to expand the discussion once we've worked out the kinks about exactly what we'll be suggesting to vote on or discuss. I'd like to get a more concrete question first.

It seems that Ramsus said it best. Flavor-locking mechanics in a system where flavor is supposed to be infinitely malleable (and that's the first thing almost all players say the love about the system, the infinite flavor options) just doesn't make much sense. It also limits character-build options and gives poor Inky Quills heartaches, because she loves earth pony racial talents but wants to play a unicorn due to her roleplaying concept.

The only argument against implementing such a thing seems to be a fear that the races will no longer feel special and distinct from one another if this becomes the case.

So we have two things.

1) We want players to have as many options as possible for utility talents and want flavor to be infinitely malleable.

2) We want races to still feel special from one another.

However, as in the case with most game design - these two desires aren't necessarily opposed. As mentioned, Baby Dragons are one of the most flavorful racial choices out there and a huge favorite... And they don't have a single race-restricted utility talent. Clearly, it's possible to build interesting and flavorful races without restricting utility talents.

Since that's the case, it seems a heavy argument for abolishing the vast majority, if not all, of race-restrictions on utility talents. Unless someone brings up some other reason than worrying about flavor, I don't think I've heard any good reason not to do this and a lot of good reasons TO do it.

A secondary question is whether to open up certain racial tracks, like the ponykinesis or weathercrafting, to other races as well - the same way Living Legends did with flying. This seems simple as well, it'd be weird to only have 5 or 6 race-restricted talents in the game. A lot of people seem reluctant to open improvement tracks like this to other races, but many of those people seem to also endorse the flying one for Living Legends... Which is the MOST distinctive feature about the Pegasus/Hawkling. If even Flight is fair game at the cost of 2 utility talents, why shouldn't the ability to move small objects with your mind? Or affect the weather? The prospect might seem odd, but the most daring example of it - opening flying - has been very popular and people seem to like it once they see it.

So far the main argument I've heard to not remove most race-restrictions is either flavor-based, which isn't what the system's about, or worrying that races won't be able to feel special without race-restricted talents (which baby dragons demonstrate isn't the case). And I've heard a whole lot of arguments for it, plus playtesting it in Living Legends has been great. I know if I asked my players in Living Legends if they wanted race-restrictions back IN they'd say no. In fact, here's a quick log. I just asked them.

[11:29:24 PM] Dan Felder: I'm considering putting racial-restrictions on most of the utility talents in the handbook for Living Legends
[11:29:31 PM] Dan Felder: like, only Elves can use Magecraft and all that
[11:29:35 PM] Dan Felder: like the idea?
[11:29:51 PM] Dan Felder: as players
[11:30:01 PM] Oblivious: Aww. That means my character can't use magecraft.
[11:30:08 PM] Dan Felder: so, like it?
[11:30:11 PM] Dan Felder: or don't?
[11:30:26 PM] Twitch: nomegusta.jpg
[11:30:46 PM] Twitch: Doesn't putting restrictions like that defeat half the purpose of the system?

I would like an explanation as to exactly what is going to make a Changeling special if we do this.

Heck, if we open Earth Pwny and related functions to everyone, what's going to make an Earth Pony special?

We open up the Baby Dragon's racial traits to everyone, then what is going to make Baby Dragons special?

What is the point of races at all if there are no restrictions?

And if there's no point to races at all, the game is going to be less unique and flavorful because people aren't going to think to play anything besides the protagonists seen in the show: the unicorn, the pegasus, and the Earth Pony. That's eight races gone. That's making characters less special.

I would also like an explanation how we're going to explain to players who put their hearts into crafting Changelings because their powers are cool that that's just too bad now that non-Changelings get those powers too.

Again, when everyone is super, no one will be.

I think you're jumping the gun there Proc. Also, that ending sentiment is....well it offends me on intellectual, emotional, and philosophical levels. It's like you're not even thinking about the implications of what you're saying. Or worse, that you actually believe all people should suffer problems for no better reason than so that you can feel more important. Not that it makes you more important, just feel that way.

I don't know how Stairc intends to deal with races. I'd like to think he'd take my suggestion but, he could just as easily not. If he does though, races don't need to be special because they'll be whatever you want. Which is hard to call not special.

If he just does them like he has in the Legends game then, well actually I can't really think of a reason for doing that when it wouldn't be much work to go with my suggestion, lol. I suppose we'd have basically races that were better at certain things starting out than others. Honestly, I don't see the point in making people's choices for them like that when you could just let them make those choices themselves.

Either way, people's work on races isn't going to go up in smoke. It will just be used by more people. How is that a bad thing? I don't think anyone who created a Changeling utility for example is going to be upset that someone playing a Pegasus is enjoying what they made. Rather, I think they'd be happy more people appreciate their efforts than just a narrow few.
Edit: Also I was one of those people and this will completely nullify one of the two parts I worked on. And I have no problem with that at all because it results in something better.

I have limitations. You have limitations. Everyone has limitations. The limitations are just as much a part of who we are as our potentialities. I'm not saying "Everyone should suffer except me so that I can be important", I'm saying "Everyone including me has things they can do better than others and things they can do worse, and that's fine because the bad stuff is just as important as the good stuff in making up who we are".

And do not think I am saying that people with disabilities should not be cured or debilitating or otherwise sicknesses should not be eradicated, etc. There is a difference between "limitations" like being unable to carry a tune in a bucket despite practice and "Constrictions on pontential", like sicknesses, disabilities, etc. are.

And I'm glad no one who made these talents is gonna feel too bad, but I'm not talking about people who made the talents. I'm talking about the people who want to play certain races, and how they're gonna feel when they find out there's actually no difference between the races at all. Each race was given the abilities they have in the first place so that they could feel special, and now that these abilities are potentially being made widespread, that's going to make each race less special as access to part of what makes those races who they are becomes widespread. And if all their abilities aren't going to be made widespread, merely those of the Pegasus, Changeling, and Unicorn, why do only those races get some of what makes them special taken away?

...also, outside the realm of the ongoing multifaceted disagreement on what exactly should be done? Like, this next sentence, I'm not trying to debate you or maneuver you into an advantageous position for my next point or anything, I am just genuinely curious. If that sentiment offended you, why didn't you speak up about it when I posted that video?

This seems to be getting a little convoluted. I think you're overreacting a bit Proc to something that I, at least, am not suggesting. Let's take a look at your below statement.

We open up the Baby Dragon's racial traits to everyone, then what is going to make Baby Dragons special?

We wouldn't give everyone access to dragon racial traits. We'd just let people get access to pre-existing utility talent paths. Hawklings still feel cool despite the fact that other people can fly for the cost of 2 utility talents. If anything, hawklings usually feel *more* impressive - because you can see just how big an advantage they're getting.

That said, everyone already pretty much has access to baby dragon things. The ability to create puffs of flame can be mimicked with a torch. Spyrotechnics is an improved version of Pyrotechnics. One of the baby dragon's abilities is just grabbing a unicorn talent. The final ability to give a morale boost is cool, but it's just a tamer version of Instant-Party. Everyone can already build their own baby dragon.

So Proc... Do you think that people who want to play baby dragons look at baby dragons and feel they're not flavorful? If baby dragons are flavorful and feel cool, then it's clear we can open access to utility talents without making your super-villain's prophecy true.

...alright.

I still feel the same way about things, but I have been outmaneuvered. I cannot think of a logical reason to counteract what you're saying, and I can admit that.

But, Proc whose to say all Pegasi are good at Weathercrafting and none are good at aiding others at skill checks? Are all humans good at anything that most are and none good at things most aren't?

Apparently Stairc doesn't want to open up races like that, which I feel is a shame. At which point I do share your concern of certain races feeling less special than others. Because if anyone can get Flight and Weather crafting, why can nobody else get Friend in Deed? That really isn't very fair.

Also...it was a super villain's statement. Did you not think the train of thought stemmed from a bad place? Seriously, almost all of mankinds self-inflicted ills can be brought back to thoughts like that. I didn't look at it or say anything because I felt that way you yourself were saying was more important to focus on.

I think I'll put some time into actually putting together the idea I've proposed though, even though I know Stairc is currently saying we're not gonna do that, so that maybe you guys can look at it and see if you think it'd be worthwhile.
Edit: Also so I can see what a Zebragriff would look like mechanically. =P

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:...alright.

I still feel the same way about things, but I have been outmaneuvered. I cannot think of a logical reason to counteract what you're saying, and I can admit that.

I know how you feel. You're gut says one thing but the logic says something else. This is actually how I felt about the pony tales system in the first place, logically I thought all the mechanics were solid and cool. My gut though said that combat was going to be too limited, the "no miss" system was going to be too weird, the Magic Point system was going to be way too weird...

But logic said it'd all work. So glad I didn't trust my gut.

In general, when your gut is feeling something but all the logic in the world can't find a problem - at least when it comes to game design - it usually means that the idea is good... It's just so foreign or unusual that your gut it recoiling from it. In fact, it's those situations where my best ideas tend to come from - when the logic is so strong supporting the idea that it even overpowers my gut discomfort with it. =)

Ramsus wrote:Apparently Stairc doesn't want to open up races like that, which I feel is a shame.

Open races like how exactly? It's perfectly possible I just missed your suggestion. And I've really wanted to get rid of racial barriers since the start (and pre-empted this thread with Living Legends' approach) so there's a good chance we'll see eye to eye here.

Oh. My idea is to get rid of individual races as a mechanic (obviously as a character you'd still be playing some race) and have Race be essentially another category like stats or utilities where you just choose traits. Right now, based on my gut feeling and not testing (I'd have to put it together first to test how it looks), I'd say 4 points of traits, with most traits that already exist probably costing 1 but, some of the stronger ones like Flight costing 2. This would let people build the character's racial setup to be whatever they wanted so that they could have Shapechanging Fliers or Weather-crafters with Friend in Deed and such things like that.

Don't judge the idea by that paragraph though, I'm going to make a thread for it after lunch and hopefully in a few hours I'll be done and people can actually look at it.

Ramsus wrote:Oh. My idea is to get rid of individual races as a mechanic (obviously as a character you'd still be playing some race) and have Race be essentially another category like stats or utilities where you just choose traits. Right now, based on my gut feeling and not testing (I'd have to put it together first to test how it looks), I'd say 4 points of traits, with most traits that already exist probably costing 1 but, some of the stronger ones like Flight costing 2. This would let people build the character's racial setup to be whatever they wanted so that they could have Shapechanging Fliers or Weather-crafters with Friend in Deed and such things like that.

Don't judge the idea by that paragraph though, I'm going to make a thread for it after lunch and hopefully in a few hours I'll be done and people can actually look at it.

Actually sounds exactly like an idea I was already considering. Sounds perfect for Living Legends, which is supposed to be able to support any racial concept in existence. I'd suggest it as an optional expansion (don't worry aproc) to Pony Tales too, done in such a way that the existing races would be perfect setups (like, 'here's a template that makes sense for a pegasus') that people can still play the same races they've always been... But people can build their own unique races on the fly.

I like it a lot.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote: I'd suggest it as an optional expansion

Optional expansion = best solution for everyone.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
I'd suggest it as an optional expansion (don't worry aproc)

Now you're just teasing me.

Ok, I made a thread for the optional expansion over in Races. I will say after removing the racial barrier on Utilities, Baby Dragons are clearly the strongest race, followed by Griffons and Changelings, then most everyone else (probably starting with Pegasi), and at the very bottom are Unicorns. Unexpected results to say the least.

Seeing just how unbalanced the races are to each other we might want to consider making that a not so option expansion or really going over the existing races in more detail to give the ones who are lacking more stuff.

Ramsus wrote:Ok, I made a thread for the optional expansion over in Races. I will say after removing the racial barrier on Utilities, Baby Dragons are clearly the strongest race, followed by Griffons and Changelings, then most everyone else (probably starting with Pegasi), and at the very bottom are Unicorns. Unexpected results to say the least.

Unexpected? I wouldn't say so. We made the non-pony races stronger than pony races because they didn't have access to as many utility options. Just going to need to do a bit of rebalancing.

Unexpected was just a personal opinion, I hadn't really been factoring stuff like that in.

Okay, I think things are clearer now. We weren't arguing about removing races entirely (besides in the optional expansion), just freeing up the racial utility talents for everypony. Okay, I'm cool with that - assuming the racial abilities get rebalanced, which appears to be the plan.

EDIT: That said, it occurs to me that some utility talents still depend on racial abilities, like the ones that augment weathercrafting and changeling shapeshifting. For those, do we make racial abilities prerequisites for those talents...?

Jason Shadow wrote:For those, do we make racial abilities prerequisites for those talents...?

Current Word of Stairc says "actually, we'll be opening up racial traits to everyone in the form of utility talents, or maybe a racial mod system", quote unquote and paraphrase.

AProcrastinatingWriter wrote:

Jason Shadow wrote:For those, do we make racial abilities prerequisites for those talents...?

Current Word of Stairc says "actually, we'll be opening up racial traits to everyone in the form of utility talents, or maybe a racial mod system", quote unquote and paraphrase.

This is not the current Word of Stairc actually. The only racial traits that would open up would be one's required to get certain talents - the way that Living Legends handles the flight-prerequisite. There would be no utility talent access to Epic Pwny.

Why not?

Becaue, right no at least, there's no reason to. The only reason to open the pre-req utility talents is so we don't have just a few random race-specific utility talents cluttering the system, which would be odd.

By the way, about Pinkie's Brew.... are we going to replace the now-useless official version with the version I/SilentBelle made (mostly SilentBelle, all I did was put it down in writing really)?

Ramsus wrote:By the way, about Pinkie's Brew.... are we going to replace the now-useless official version with the version I/SilentBelle made (mostly SilentBelle, all I did was put it down in writing really)?

I have an actual, more in-depth description of the talent. Let's see if I can fish it out.
Ah, here it is, it's kind of long but I think it does a good job of describing the power.

Pinkies Brew
Preparation Time: 30 Minutes
Over the next 30 minutes, you can use healing, mechanics, or arcana (whichever is higher), to brew various potions and elixirs with various effects, from healing ailments, granting temporary strength, or even magical effects. The higher the check, the more effective the brew.

Even if you get a relatively low healing check that falls short of what you needed while brewing a potion, it will still have a less-useful or entirely different effect. The more powerful the effect of the potion, the higher the check you will need to achieve the desired effect.

Preparation:
Before brewing the potion, pick your parameters. (ie. What you intend to brew.) These will determine the DC of the brew. Then roll the appropriate skill check and determine your result.

Falling short of the DC:
If you fall short of the target DC, the Ponyhandler should then roll a 1d3 corresponding to one of the DC determining factors and change that parameter to meet the skill check. (For example on a skill-check failure of exactly 5, for a potion that would had a duration of indefinite, could be changed to expire after an hour. Or a potion of invisibility can have an entirely different, less powerful effect while keeping the same Duration and Potency) The crafter of this potion is unaware of which exact parameter has been changed but they do know it isn't perfectly crafted.

In the event of rolling a higher number than needed on their check, select a parameter randomly and, if applicable, adjust it to fit the total number. (For example, a healing salve (+2 to heal checks could be changed to a +5 bonus if they beat their check by 3-7 points)). This bonus should only ever improve the effectiveness, but never change the intention of the potion, after all, they were able to succeed their target skill-check.

Determining the DC:
Base DC: 15 (Making any potion that does anything will be higher than a DC:15)

Duration (how long before it expires within the confines of the bottle):
- 1 Hour or less (+0 DC)
- 1 Day (+2 DC)
- Indefinite (+5 DC)

Potency (How long the effect of the potion lasts):
- Instantaneous (+0)
- 1 minute (+2)
- 30 minutes (+5)
- 2 hours (+10)
- 8 hours (+15)

Effect (How powerful of an effect it is):
- Simple (+2) [Examples: a plus 2 bonus to as skill check (Like an antibiotic to give +2 to heal), starting a fire, or freezing a small area.
- Moderate (+5) [Examples: The ability to walk on clouds, +5 to a skill check, Creating a 100 cubic feet of smoke, or a 10 foot radius of blinding light.
- Adept (+10) [Examples: +10 to a skill check, Shared potion of telepathy, or acid that corrodes all but the toughest of materials)
- Master (+15) [Examples: +15 to a skill check or +5 to an attribute, 50 foot teleportation, Zone of Silence, or flight (Clumsy)]
- Grand Master (+20) [Examples: +20 to a skill check, Perfect Flight, or Invisibility]
(Determining the DC is all up to the Pony Handler's discretion.)