Re: Breaking the Unbreakable

thematthew Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:28 am

But at the same token, even as a [+] or [0] power, few people are going to take it. There are still better things than this to take, and it would only really have use in very particular builds.

**Nehiel Mori** Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:29 am

Point of this is to challenge you to break things right?

Break... Death Stalks You
The -4 of the Necroscythe.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:30 am

thematthew wrote:But at the same token, even as a [+] or [0] power, few people are going to take it. There are still better things than this to take, and it would only really have use in very particular builds.

No matter what, we have so many talents in the system, and some are wildly popular, that some talents are often going to be passed up. The mere existence of less efficient talents makes build decisions more meaningful too, as you can focus on the more powerful for optimization.

However, if you'd like to try designing a version of the power that is efficient without the problems mentioned - I'm sure it can be done. I just don't have time to do it myself right now.

thematthew Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:32 am

Nehiel Mori wrote:Point of this is to challenge you to break things right?

Break... Death Stalks You
The -4 of the Necroscythe.

Challenge Accepted. I'll have to do it later though, I have to go into work in an hour and have duty.

Also

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:However, if you'd like to try designing a version of the power that is efficient without the problems mentioned - I'm sure it can be done. I just don't have time to do it myself right now.

Challenge Also Accepted!

Xel Unknown Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:27 am

YAY! I'd love to see Smash and Grab getting an upgrade... It just feel so louny to me... I got it for one character but it really doesn't do much and I just can't find a way to get to using it much.

And by the way... Build the most powerful Summoner you can build in this system. I'd like to see what I went wrong with Chain Link...

tygerburningbright Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:31 pm

I would like to see you break Stab the most basic attack in the game.

kajisora Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:28 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:YAY! I'd love to see Smash and Grab getting an upgrade... It just feel so louny to me... I got it for one character but it really doesn't do much and I just can't find a way to get to using it much.

And by the way... Build the most powerful Summoner you can build in this system. I'd like to see what I went wrong with Chain Link...

Seeing as one of my current is mainly a summoner, I was pretty close to checking this out anyway:
Lvl 10 character:

Summonses:

methodsss:

thematthew Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:18 am

Having put some time into considering the problem of pip theft, I do agree with Stairc that actual pip theft should be strongly controlled.

As such, here are 4 powers built around the 'what's yours is mine theme'

1) Smash & Grab 2.0 [+1] Standard Attack
Roll 1d8 and deal that much damage to target. If the result is 6 or more you gain a pip and the opponent loses a pip, if the result is 3 or less you are stunned until the end of your next turn.

Pros: As proposed, the pip theft comes with a hefty drawback. Much more comparable to Siphon Life, or other [+1] damaging moves.
Cons: Feels heavy handed as an answer to the problem.

2) Hulk Smash and Grab [-2] (Maybe [-3] still not sure) Standard Attack
Deal 2d8 damage to target, if either comes up 6 or higher the target loses 1 pip and you gain 1 pip.

Pros: Easily controllable, at [-3] it gives 2 37.5% chances to only cost 2 pips. Would probably reduce the [-2] pip version to 7 or higher, giving roughly a 25% chance to be a [-1] move.
Cons: A build centered around this with some cheesy way to get extra pips could use this as a lockdown at [-2] potentially.

And for not so smash, but grab:

3) I'm Sorry, were you using that? [-5] Standard Utility
Target enemy is Scavenged (save ends). While scavenged you gain half of the pips spent by the target, minimum 1, and you gain 1 pip whenever it gains pips.

Pros: Controllable with save effects and the like, but usable on the 2nd turn without any special preps. Not quite an ultimate, but makes for some fun possibilities.
Cons: The gimmick can be fun, but easily made unattractive since save ends and you may pay in 5 to get squat.

Which brings me to:

4) Hey, I think you dropped this! [-9] Standard Utility
Target enemy is scavenged for the rest of the battle. While scavenged you gain half of the pips spent by the target, minimum 1, and you gain 1 pip whenever it gains pips.

Pros: While not in itself an Ultimate, it gives you a pip funnel to make longer battles with solos actually a thing you become good at. Helps make Paranoia effects have some more positive impact. Controlled by needing a teamwork or a build designed around it to get it going before turn 3.
Cons: Can easily be wasted if used in a good number of basic combats. With a team built around abusing it, it can easily make effectively a party pip-funnel.

Now that last con can actually make for some fun team builds, so I'm personally fine with it. But there are some new ways of giving people pip-theft themed effects which have some controls built in to make them hard to abuse.

Will get back to making builds later.

Xel Unknown Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:15 pm

Personally really, really like Smash and Grab 2.0 :3

thematthew Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:10 pm

So the Necro scythe's big trick is making your opponent die a slow agonizing death while you watch and laugh. The big problem is that you only give them a -1 penalty to saves for being a cock, and you lose access to Everlasting Misery when you activate the Scythe. This leads us to needing a partner in crime, someone who buys the alchemy stuff and most importantly gets Everlasting Misery and Family Recipe. This will allow us more penalties to our illustrious opponent's saving throws.

So, for our Necro Scythe wielding sociopath we need pip generation and access to the necro scythe. As such his build is pretty straight forward

Daredevil's Rush, Supercharge, Draw Blood, Trance, All or Nothing, Psychic Anomaly, Dark Bargain, and Kindle Pain all have solid places here, so we are going to consider them. As much as Perfect Focus is great pip gain, we actually don't really care about it since it denies us the potential to activate our scythe during someone else's turn with Form of the Reaper.

Speaking of which, we will have both Reaper's Scythe and Form of the Reaper. That way we can pull out the Scythe without it having to be when we die, but we can also do it when we die as well.

So, Daredevil's Rush is already known to be the best pip-gainer we have to offer, so I'm not taking it. It kinda makes the whole thing a moot point.

Kindle Pain is nice, but it's only 1 pip and I'd like a pip buffer fast. So, no.

Draw Blood is a great pip gain, and drops ongoing damage 1, combine that with Fleshrender and Supercharge and we can build up pips and ongoing damage the first couple turns, then scythe and go to town.

Alternatively we could use the Ritual Knife and Trance to have 11 pips off the bat, then go scythe mode turn 2. THis will let us grievous wound and death stalks you shortly thereafter and continually piling on grievous wounds.

Now, sadly, this whole talent we're wanting to have fun with is a long term power. Since it requires you to a) be in scythe mode (min 7 pips) b) have them taking ongoing damage (now we're at min 2 turns as well) and c) have 4 extra pips to throw down (which means some more turnage down the tubes) so this is only going to be good against solos. Seriously big ones.

The other thing that we need to get the ball rolling is a team. Seriously, the save ends effect of Death Stalks You means that you need someone to stop those pesky saves. So buddy All Chem, the Alchemist comes in for that. He turn 2 Family Recipies, with the advent of Trance, then uses supercharge to keep himself up enough pips to keep using Everlasting Misery once per round. He is going to hold Fleshrender for you, that way every Supercharge that damages increases ongoing damage some more, thus makes you feel better about yourself.

So here's what we have:

Trance
Death's Scythe
Form of the Reaper
Savage Dreadnought
Siphon Life

Ritual Knife

Note: The only things he cares about having are Death's Scythe and Form of the Reaper, everything else is just there for something to do to gain pips or what not.

Trance
Family Recipe
Everlasting Misery
Supercharge
Sanctity of Faith

Fleshrender

Note: In this case, he basically wants to keep himself regenerating and supercharge as necessary, so that he can Everlasting Misery as much as possible, and not kill himself too fast. someone giving him resist is going to be very very important.

Basic fight:

Turn 1 both Trance, Scythe guy sacs health for 3 pips
Turn 2: Death's Scythe and Family Recipe
Turn 3: Grievous Wound and Supercharge (Sanctity of Faith if going before Scythe guy)
Turn 4: Death Stalks You and Supercharge (Sanctity of Faith if going after Scythe guy)

The only 3 effects that matter to keep on the target are ongoing damage, Mark of the Reaper, and -2 to saves. Anything else it can lose, but if it would save against one of those you have to Everlasting Misery.

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:30 am

Also, on the subject of Bone Mite not being an immediate reaction, I think it is supposed to be immediate. Mostly because reactions are only referenced in the immediate section of the book, and they make you go straight to crazy town since the only thing limiting you from gaining an infinite number of bone mites in response to something dying would be it being immediate.

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:51 am

Now, when it comes for summoning builds the things we need to consider are what we really want to throw around.

Our first, and most important thing to consider is how we can mess with our enemies. Which is going to be the Fire Giant.

Everyone loves the Fire Giant, since he is a big fatty that can ruin people's days, though at -9 he is really expensive.

Next to consider is how to get our pips. We should grab something like Trance or Perfect Focus. Both of these can give you the 9 pips you need for Fire Giant on turn 2, Perfect Focus denies you the assurance of getting it but doesn't increase the damage you take.

Also things to consider are Conjure Wraith and Conjure Warden, either of which would give you the self protection you need.

Finally we want a Bone Mite, since it gives you something to do when your enemies die, and gives you something to do with things you don't need anymore.

A final thing to look at is Gather Energy, since it gives you an extra action on your next turn, and basically gives you a free pip.

So what we've got looks like this:

Trance/Perfect Focus
Fire Giant
Bone Mite
Conjure Wraith/Warden
Gather Energy

Now you can add in Royal Command, Pincer Maneuver, or On My Mark with Dangerous so you can give your summons extra actions.

This build would give you the summoning standard you want, and depending on how you do it you can reliably throw down a Fire Giant on turn 2.

kajisora Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:44 am

thematthew wrote:Also, on the subject of Bone Mite not being an immediate reaction, I think it is supposed to be immediate. Mostly because reactions are only referenced in the immediate section of the book, and they make you go straight to crazy town since the only thing limiting you from gaining an infinite number of bone mites in response to something dying would be it being immediate.

Huh, curse my hastiness! I somehow had the idea that there were both Immediate and non-Immediate combat reactions and interrupts in the player's guide. Can't find any now that I'm searching the doc. Either way I would assume you couldn't use the same reactive ability twice on the same trigger.

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:48 am

Well, reactions and interrupts are both covered by the Immediate Reactions and Interrupts. Basically reading it, either Bone Mite is immediate, cannot be used, or can be used *infinity.

kajisora Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:57 am

Ahh found it:
Art of war has both types.
Emergency provisions, Form of the Reaper and Protect the Master are Immediate, the others are not.
I still think you can only summon the mite once per trigger though, if only because no DM would allow you to summon a legion of them

I wasn't focusing on summoning the giant as soon as possible, though you can do it on turn two with Deal with Discord and the coin flip trait if you get a decent roll. My focus was more on setting up a constant funnel of pips, with a decent damage output (crushing blow and the on-deaths), healing (skeletons) and protection (skeletons and wraiths) so you can summon a lot of them over the course of a prolonged fight.

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:59 am

I can understand what you were trying to do, but what we are approaching into is one of those horrible grey areas of the rules.

Edit: I'm really creeped out by watching the rules change before my eyes, but they removed the 'Immediate' part of that from the text and now they just are triggered actions.

kajisora Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:20 am

Either way, bone mite being Immediate wouldn't change the way this would work, as the skeleton isn't. It just means you can't send out multiple teams at once, which I assumed anyway.
But yeah, it is a gray area, and the build isn't all that good against a single foe. Also, it requires a high level for the traits.
Then again, it looks like you can have both on the same character: they use most of the same moves. Especially if you swap out Cutscene Immunity for Talented

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:24 am

Actually, since they just removed the Immediate portion of Reactions and Interrupts, you can only use either Bone Mite or Rise for Me! Not both, which I really expected to be the final ruling.

kajisora Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:32 am

Eeeyup.
Was just looking through it again as well.
Only one action on a trigger now. Too bad.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:33 am

kajisora wrote:Eeeyup.
Was just looking through it again as well.
Only one action on a trigger now. Too bad.

Actually, there has always and forever been only one action per trigger. I didn't edit that.

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:37 am

Actually, it did specify immediate previously. That's where this whole thing started.

<---Has PDF of previous rules

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:33 pm

So, stab is exactly the same as headshot, except that it doesn't have a double damage clause and instead just does 1d10 damage. As such it really would get the exact same treatment that headshot did. I know this is kinda a cop out, but seriously neither power actually does anything special on its own so you just need to give it a way to combo with something. Like the fleshrender, or doing basic ultimates like Midnight's Blade or Wild Abandon. With the current Ritual Knife you can set off Midnight's Blade on turn 1, and then hit for 1d10 +6 damage on turn 2. While gaining pips.

thematthew Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:44 pm

Alright, so that's everything that got asked for. Might come back and give a facelift to Stab so it doesn't feel like the bastard child of builds.

GIMME MORE!

Also, Stairc, opinions of the pip-theft power set.

Greywander Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:23 pm

Curse Eater, go!

Seriously, Gather Energy into Dark Bargain/Curse Eater is a powerful self heal.

thematthew Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:37 pm

So when I think of Curse Eater builds, I think of a build that aims to gain power by screwing itself over. So in addition to Curse Eater we also want Hangman's Noose. Continuing that, Dark Bargain is a solid starter, giving you 3 save ends conditions while gaining pips, and Sanctity of Faith will net you an extra one with 3 pips on top. Throw in Barter in Blood to hurt enemies whenever you are hurt, and finish it off with a suit of Full Plate and you can just sit back and enjoy the hilarity.

You might also consider the Bloodwand to give yourself a Save Ends that doesn't really do anything to you, and actually can cause you to gain health with the Full Plate.

So, build:

Dark Bargain [+4]
Sanctity of Faith [+3]
Barter in Blood [-1]
Curse Eater[-4]
Hangman's Noose [-5]

Bloodwand (when affordable)
Full Plate

Total 3500gp

If you have the Bloodwand you actually want to use it on yourself and BiB one opponent. This causes you to take 2 damage every turn (4 damage -2 for Full Plate's Resist) and gain 4 health per turn (as stated by Bloodwand) and deal 1d6 damage to the BiBed creature. Net effect: pay 1 pip for regen 2 and ongoing damage 1d6 to target creature.

Your Next action should probably be Sanctity of Faith, followed by Dark Bargain last. This will give you 4 save ends conditions (The ongoing damage 2 and ongoing damage 4 should conflict, and the OG 4 should stay since it is a more severe condition). Then you use Hangman's Nose and BiB until you have to Curse Eater for healing, while refreshing DB or SoF when you need pips or one of the effects you need falls off.

Only hard part is keeping up all your save ends effects on yourself.

EDIT: Fun thought would be to get Selfless Act instead of Barter in Blood, just to eat up opponent's save end effects into your own healing/damage dealing.

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