[Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Paper Shadow on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:08 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:And how does it differs from the builds that use he +2d6 and +3d6? They cost the same or more.
The +2d6 is the same cost, the +3d6 is +2 more, but they are both Minor Utilities instead of a Standard Utility that Midnight Blade is...

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Ramsus on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:09 pm

*facepalm* And there's that too.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:26 pm

Paper Shadow wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:And how does it differs from the builds that use he +2d6 and +3d6? They cost the same or more.
The +2d6 is the same cost, the +3d6 is +2 more, but they are both Minor Utilities instead of a Standard Utility that Midnight Blade is...

Think Midnight Blade should be made a minor as well?
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Xel Unknown on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:29 pm

I personally think it should be a minor...
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Paper Shadow on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:32 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Paper Shadow wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:And how does it differs from the builds that use he +2d6 and +3d6? They cost the same or more.
The +2d6 is the same cost, the +3d6 is +2 more, but they are both Minor Utilities instead of a Standard Utility that Midnight Blade is...


Think Midnight Blade should be made a minor as well?
Perhaps, but maybe a bit of a pip increase as well. Remember, Wild Abandon and Berserker's Rage only work on single-target attacks, while Midnight Blade can boost any attack's damage by 6...

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:37 pm

No one uses it currently as far as I can tell. Increasing its PiP costs will make people use it even less.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:44 pm

Berserker powers also make you suffer vulnerability.

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:00 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Berserker powers also make you suffer vulnerability.

And yet, people use them, and not the Midnight Blade as far as I can see.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:01 pm

Just reminding of another difference.

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:03 pm

I know, I know...

I think Midnight Blade needs a serious reworking....
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:05 pm

It well might.

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Paper Shadow on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:19 am

Fury of the Tempest wrote:No one uses it currently as far as I can tell. Increasing its PiP costs will make people use it even less.
Maybe. But not because it will be a worse utility talent. I mean, compare Midnight Blade and Wild Abandon...

Midnight Blade
[-7] Standard Action
Lasts Until End Of Battle
Allows Rerolls of 1s on d8s, d10s, and d12s
Once Per Round one of your attacks deal an extra 6 damage

Wild Abandon
[-7] Minor Action
Lasts Until End of Battle
You suffer Vulnerability 4
Once Per Round one of your single-target attacks deal an extra 2d6 (between 2 - 12, average 7) damage

If you make Midnight Blade a minor action without increasing the pip cost, it becomes a strong choice over Wild Abandon. Of course, late game there are very, very few things which benefit multi-target attacks but a billion which improve single-target attacks, so that's something...

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:46 am

Fine then, it shouldn't become a minor action.

But it needs to be reworked so people actually use it.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:19 pm

Some people probably do use the talent, I've seen a few, but the berserker versions are definitely more exciting and used more often. Any suggestions for changing the talent to keep it fair without ruining the balance?

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Fury of the Tempest on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:35 pm

Hmmmmm...

I would split it into two different moves really. One that lets you re-roll rolls of 1 AND 2 for d8, d10 & d12 rolls, and one that gives you a solid bonus to damage, minor action possibily, smaller number so costs less PiPs. Say... 4-5 damage for... -6/-5 PiPs?
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Ramsus on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:29 pm

A -5 minor action would probably be ideal for the damage buffing one.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  ZamuelNow on Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:54 pm

Lightning Pace - Original:
[-2] Lightning Pace - Reaction Utility
Trigger - You roll initiative and dislike the result.
Effect - You gain a +7 bonus to your initiative check.

While it still might be better as a trait/item due to only being used once per battle, I have an interesting idea for a buff to this.

Lightning Pace - Proposal:
[-1] Lightning Pace - Reaction Attack
Trigger - You roll initiative and dislike the result.
Effect - Exchange places in the initiative order with target enemy and deal 2 damage to that enemy.

Allows it to combo with various other damage reactions, especially those that trigger off of initiative order.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:18 pm

As cool as that is, it's a notoriously annoying to deal with a changing initiative order. Back when we had talents that did that, I had to write whole pages of posts answering questions about how they worked in particular situations. We intentionally removed all initiative-shuffling from the system for that reason.

This one, as it only changes the order at the start of the battle before anyone takes a turn, might be workable - but initiative-shuffling is real can of worms. Even when it looks safe to open, it might still have hidden future problems.

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:31 pm

I misread form of the tree last night, and spent an hour or so contemplating how amazingly useful it is. Then I reread it, realized I can't get 6 pips a turn off of it, and so now I'm posting it here.

Form of the Tree is pretty worthless. I can't think of a single build or role that would be able to make use of or play off of it except maybe someone who wants to avoid assisting in combat entirely. If the Standard Action of transforming were made to be a minor, then it would be at least useful as a pip builder, though 6 pips a turn is probably broken. So instead, you should give it a few more actions to make it even worth considering. For example:

Spoiler:
[-X] Rootsnare- Standard Attack
Up to three target creatures are stunned and suffer X ongoing damage (save ends both). X cannot equal more than 5.

[-8] Magical Fruits- Standard Utility
All conscious allies gain 2d8 hp, 3 temp hp (Save Ends), and resist 3 (Save Ends)

[-X] Running of the Leaves- Standard Utility
Target willing ally may take an extra standard action on their next turn, paying half the cost from their own pips and half from yours (the cost must equal -1 or greater). If the action does damage, it deals an extra 1d6 damage.

[+2] Photsynthetic- Minor Utility
Target Enemy gains 1d4 hp

[0] Leech- Standard Attack
Choose one:
a) Drain 1 Pip from target creature and up to two adjacent creatures. Primary Target creature is weakened until the end of its next turn.
b) Pay 3 pips. Target creature suffers1d8 ongoing damage and up to two adjacent creatures suffer 1d4 ongoing damage (save ends all). At the beginning of your turn as long as this effect is active, gain hp equal to half the total damage dealt by this effect.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Paper Shadow on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:35 pm

People who don't care about minor actions consider it useful. It gives three pips and 2 resist, that's great...

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:57 pm

Yeah, a standard action that gives 3 pips and a marginal benefit is really solid. Just compare it to Draw Blood or any of the other +3 powers. Form of the Tree offers extra benefits, in the form of resist 2 and access to another defensive move, but won't let you access your normal interrupts/reactions and other abilities while you're in tree-form as the trade-off. It's quite useful.

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  A1C Bronymous on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:34 pm

And yet, Draw Blood contributes, even in that miniscule amount, to the fight. This is just a "sit there, do nothing" talent that gets you pips, and the sitting htere and doing nothing would probably be better if it paid off, but at only 3 pips a turn, it will take a few turns for that payoff to happen.

Now, lets say you plan to use this on turn 1 to bring out a fire giant turn 2. Besides draw blood, which can be combined with other actions/effects to be effective, or critfisher, which gives you a shot of doing something great for free, you also have Gather energy, which can be used turn 1, and then a myriad of +2 talents( most of which are markedly more useful), on turn 2, and then Fire giant.

Or, say you spent all your pips last turn, and you need to build up again to do something. Biding your time is of little use, and +3 a turn is not cost effective, when you could gain 5 back (10 with a certain item), or at least 4 if you need a full complement of actions the following turn.

The primary use, as you said, is a +3 that nets you 2 resist, but there are only three situations where I can think that thats a major concern:
1- You are the tank, and you tank everyone's damage, so you need a way to mitigate that. This is no good for that, because besides there being quicker, more efficient ways to get 2 resist, it also cancels out all of the things you would need to actually tank that damage- interrupts, minors, other talents.
2- You are about to be kod, and you think 2 resist will help. It might. Or, you could spend that time doing something proactive, and let the healer and/or tank (there's bound to be one, if not both) worry about that. If you're the healer, then heal yourself.
3- None of the above, and you just want to have resist 2 for a turn. In that case, you need to consider what point in the fight you're at, what role you have that you should be doing to contribute, and how keeping yourself resisted for a single turn for those 3 pips is worth it. By my reckoning-
You have low hp. The Boss just unloaded its big attack, and you survived. You have something that you think could finish the job, but you need at least one turn and 3 pips to pull it off. Odds of you surviving the boss's next attack (if he even attacks you) are low, but the attack can't do that much damage and resist 2 has a good chance of keeping you up.
That is the only scenario I can think of where Form of the Tree, as is, would actually be a good choice (the perfect choice, obviously, but still).

Note I didn't mention the other standard that gives you temp hp, because I figure if you're extending the tree into multiple turns, then you're definitely building up for something, and there are better ways to do it.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  Stairc -Dan Felder on Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:41 pm

1 Ongoing Damage is similarly situational if you think about it, and can be made irrelevant if other players toss on ongoing damage of higher values onto the available targets. Resist 2 is a notable amount of defense, and some players like playing defense while they build up pips. It's also good against swarms of tiny creatures.

The system is based around a standard action +3 being like skipping your turn - which allows us to make -3 standard actions about twice as powerful as a hypothetical 0 pip power and -6 standard actions 3x as powerful (a little more because you had to wait a few turns to unleash the damage instead of getting some damage up front). So getting 3 pips for a standard action and getting some tiny, almost irrelevant effect is exactly what the doctor orders for balance. Take a look at all +3 standard actions, they're all similarly tiny unless they accidentally were made OP.

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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  ZamuelNow on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:46 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:As cool as that is, it's a notoriously annoying to deal with a changing initiative order. Back when we had talents that did that, I had to write whole pages of posts answering questions about how they worked in particular situations. We intentionally removed all initiative-shuffling from the system for that reason.

This one, as it only changes the order at the start of the battle before anyone takes a turn, might be workable - but initiative-shuffling is real can of worms. Even when it looks safe to open, it might still have hidden future problems.

Understandable. I remember some of the prior discussion about initiative swapping and would only make the suggestion since this is at the start of battle. And even then, it still may need to turn into a trait or item.
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

Post  ZamuelNow on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:16 am

Been thinking about Granite Axe recently and it's kinda weird. In a vacuum, it's really subpar. However, it actually does get a fair boost from outside sources if treated as just survivable damage rather than a pure tank. The revised Crescendo alone makes the damage output jump up there. Still at absolute minimum the ult should apply a weaken to enemies, or even outright prevent them from attacking until the next turn, to reduce the suicide factor and make it less of a newbie trap.

Also, was Death Is Power ever getting lowered to a -3?
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Re: [Combat Talents] "What is overshadowed, underpowered, impractical?" - discussions

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