Re: Discussion on alterations to the new Conjured shield

ZamuelNow Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:26 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Still curious to know what other people think of Ultimate Sacrifice, no one seems to have brought it up but Kind.

Probably a silent majority situation but I think it's good as a life exchange but overpowered as a guaranteed heal to full.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:51 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:Still curious to know what other people think of Ultimate Sacrifice, no one seems to have brought it up but Kind.

Probably a silent majority situation but I think it's good as a life exchange but overpowered as a guaranteed heal to full.

Having it as life-exchange it certainlly much more balanced

Xel Unknown Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:49 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:Still curious to know what other people think of Ultimate Sacrifice, no one seems to have brought it up but Kind.

Probably a silent majority situation but I think it's good as a life exchange but overpowered as a guaranteed heal to full.

I think it's an interesting talent... But kinda an oddball for the build in my mind the more I think about it myself. But do toally agree with Zamuel on life exchange is better overall how to work it.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:53 pm

So... would people like to see the life-transference Ultimate Sacrifice?

Actually, for that matter. What are people's thoughts on the redone Sentinel's Shield? Apart from Kind, no one else has commented on it...

-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor Utility
You conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s Vow
Whenever you use a Standard talent, select one ally, they gain an Guardian Mark until the start of your next turn.

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard Utility
Gain Resist 2 until the end of your next turn, if you already have resist, increase the amount of resist you have by 2 instead. Select one ally, they gain a Guardian Mark.

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard Attack
Deal 1d8 damage to target enemy, they receive a -3 penalty to damage until the end of your next turn.

[-2] Guardian's Duty - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead. If the ally targeted by the attack has a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1.

[-X] Under the Ageis - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attack
Effect: Pay PiPs equal to the amount of allies hit plus 1. The attack hits you instead. If a allies that would of be hit by the attack have a Guardian Mark, you may remove that mark to reduce the PiP cost of this move by 1

[0] Ultimate Sacrifice - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - An ally is knocked unconscious
Effect: That ally gains health equal to your current health and PiPs equal to your current PiP total. Your health is then decreased -12 HP

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:26 pm

Frankly, I like the build of not having the trait grant marks, having one standard that grants 2, one that grants 1, and one that grants 0 (so you can still have a move at full value if you don't want to invest in marks that turn). Ultimate Sacrifice is cool but it might actually work as a regular -1 talent, since it doesn't net the party anything. Of course, it does function as the shield's vanishing move... gr... Absorb worked so well as a vanishing move...

This conversation is going in circles now. I do want to change it to disappearing marks to make balance more solid, but other than that it seems like Fury's the only one who wants a change. I mean... if no one else wants it changed much, there IS the "Fury you can just keep a houseruled version that works your way" option. I don't at all mean that to sound like "Go home Fury no one cares," but if other people don't like it the way it is, it might just be easiest and keep the most people happy to just let you keep one the way you want it and not 'rock the boat,' so to speak. Again, I'm not trying to act dismissive about it, I'm just trying to give everyone what they want when it seems there is no perfect compromise for the official version.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:31 pm

I just want the shield to be the best it can be. And currently, its not meeting that.

As the ultimate defender's weapon. You shouldn't have to decide between keeping your ability to defend people strong, or having your own defenses strong. Sure, dealing damage and weakening the enemy, or bolstering your own defenses, I can see choosing between them. But you should be able to bolster your defenses, or weaken the enemy AND still be able to defend your allies to a good amount.

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:37 pm

Hey, if you use the current Shield Bash you get the pips to use defender, without having to worry about which ally to mark.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:39 pm

Kindulas wrote:Hey, if you use the current Shield Bash you get the pips to use defender, without having to worry about which ally to mark.

You get one PiP. ONE.

Defender is worth two.

Your argument is invalid.

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:44 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
Kindulas wrote:Hey, if you use the current Shield Bash you get the pips to use defender, without having to worry about which ally to mark.

You get one PiP. ONE.

Defender is worth two.

Your argument is invalid.

*raises eyebrow*

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:45 pm

You don't get any marks, and you only gain one PiP, and no chance to crit. The Valor shield makes it so if you weaken the enemy, you also weaken the ability to defend your allies.

The shield should not do that.

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:51 pm

Fury, take a look at it. Shield bash is +2.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:07 pm

... Okay. I missed that.

Still, no mark, and only one use of defend... not exactly that helpful, is it?

hmmm... through thinking about it... if that is +2... I could change my shield so its something like this (changes in bold):

[-7] Sentinel's Shield - Minor Utility
You conjure a Sentinel Shield in your hands. You can dismiss the Sentinel Shield as a free action. While you are wielding a Sentinel Shield, you cannot use your normal combat talents. Instead you may use the combat talents below.

Trait - Protector’s Vow
Whenever you use an Immediate Interrupt to redirect an attack from allies to yourself, and they have a Guardian Mark, you may remove the Mark to decrease the cost of the Interrupt by 1

[+3] Bunker Down - Standard Utility
Gain Resist 2 until the end of your next turn, if you already have resist, increase the amount of resist you have by 2 instead. Select two allies, they gain a Guardian Mark.

[+1] Shield Smash - Standard Attack
Deal 1d8 damage to target enemy, they receive a -3 penalty to damage until the end of your next turn. Select one ally, they gains a Guardian Mark

[-2] Guardian's Duty - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger – An ally is targeted by an attack.
Affect: The triggering attack hits you instead.

[-X] Under the Ageis - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - Multiple allies would be hit by the same attack
Effect: Pay PiPs equal to the amount of allies hit plus 1. The attack hits you instead.

[0] Ultimate Sacrifice - Immediate Interrupt
Trigger - An ally is knocked unconscious
Effect: That ally gains health equal to your current health and PiPs equal to your current PiP total. Your health is then decreased -12 HP

Xel Unknown Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:15 pm

I'm still unsure about that Ultimate Sacrifice talent, but more just personally I think that it might work better as it's own type of talent uncut from the shield and giving a "non-mark" talent in it's place would be better as a whole... But the rest seems kinda good. And maybe adding in one of those to be an ult-vanish moves of the rest. *shrugs* Other then that. It looks alright.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Ultimate Sacrifice is the ult-vanish move.

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:29 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Ultimate Sacrifice is the ult-vanish move.

Right, but he's suggesting not having US on the shield. Like I said, I think it works better if Absorb vanishes and US is a regular combat talent, and I still like Shield Bash as a +2 with no mark. Gives people the option of not sinking value into a mark, which works if there are two different standard talents with variable amounts of marking.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:40 pm

... Kind. You are reaching the end of my patience.

I have reworked my shield, time, and time, and time again. Taking both your inputs, and the inputs of others into accounts. To make a shield that feels strong to use, actually does it job no matter what talent you wish to use, is not broken in small parties, and scales well as you level up. And all you have to say, is 'I want this', and 'I want that', and you want the AoE shield, which is now more expensive for a 5-6 man party, to make the shield vanish.

I get it. And currently, I don't care.

As for wanting US to be a regular talent.... JUST MAKE IT ONE.

A -1, or a -2 talent, with a different name! But conjured weapons already copy talents, with Flametongue's +3 being stab, so no one will be surprised, if a talent from a conjured weapon, is also made into a talent that isn't part of it.

tygerburningbright Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:46 pm

Kindulas is the developer what he does goes. I myself do not understand why he has humored you for so long...

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:57 pm

tygerburningbright wrote:Kindulas is the developer what he does goes. I myself do not understand why he has humored you for so long...

Correction.

He is A developer. Not THE developer.

Plus, the shield is MINE.

Xel Unknown Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:06 pm

Yes, it's your talent. Nobody will disagree with that. But I still don't understand why you had complained so much with the original official version other then the fact that you seem to dislike that somebody else dared to edit your talent regardless of reasons.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:16 pm

I didn't like it, because it forced you to make choices between bolstering your defenses, weakening the enemy, and protecting your allies.

And that the AoE shield made the weapon vanish.

Xel Unknown Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:27 pm

And I'd agure that having to pick between one of those three options makes it a very intersting talent. And it's lack of meaningful choice that'd make things boring.

sunbeam Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:38 pm

Whatever is happening to Ultimate Sacrifice, shouldn't it be a reaction, and not an interrupt? Because as it is, your target may still fall unconscious, even with your life grant. If it were a reaction:

-Target falls unconscious
-activate US
-target finishes falling unconscious.
-Target gains your HP, which it gains from 0, as they were just unconscious.
-Now that the attack is completed, and they have HP again, the target gains your pips.

If you grant them the HP and pips as an interrupt, if the incoming damage is higher than their HP+your HP, they still get knocked unconscious, and then they lose your pips and theirs.

ZamuelNow Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:58 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:
tygerburningbright wrote:Kindulas is the developer what he does goes. I myself do not understand why he has humored you for so long...

Correction.

He is A developer. Not THE developer.

Plus, the shield is MINE.

In any suggestion based situation you should always acknowledge the possibility of changes. Granted, it's preferred for it to be as close to the original idea when possible but differences in design goals or balance formula can affect things. Sometimes it's best to not think of a suggestion as your own but rather think of it as everyone's since it needs to be useful for others. A defensive conjured weapon is a good thing for the system since it's something the system doesn't currently do. Similarly, healing and summoner conjured weapons add something to the system that wasn't there before.

Fury of the Tempest Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:11 pm

Xel Unknown wrote:And I'd agure that having to pick between one of those three options makes it a very intersting talent. And it's lack of meaningful choice that'd make things boring.

Lack of meaningful choices?

Okay. Lets talk about meaningful choices.

Do you go for resist and giving two allies a mark? Or do you do you attack the enemy, damaging him, weakening him and marking one ally? When do you use a mark? Do you use it as soon as possible, to keep your PiP count high, or only when you need to? Do you wait to see if your opponent will use a multi-attack, or do you use all the marks on Guardian's Duty? If a multi-attack is used right away, do you burn all the marks to reduce the cost of Under the Aegis, or do you wait to remove the marks for Guardian's Duty?

Oh, and just WHO do you mark?

The Shield of Valor goes against its design as a defender weapon, and its no more interesting than mine. Hell, I would never use the Shield Bash, because the marks are that powerful.

ZamuelNow wrote:In any suggestion based situation you should always acknowledge the possibility of changes.

Which is why the shield has been changed multiple times.

ZamuelNow wrote:Similarly, healing and summoner conjured weapons add something to the system that wasn't there before.

Funny you should mention that, I'm working on them.

**Kindulas** Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:02 pm

I can't do this anymore. The majority here and everyone I've talked to seem to prefer the way it is, and find that "Free defender" is cooler than "Discount defender that combos with Lightning Cowl." In fact, if you say lightning cowl is so quintessential that all defenders should have it, then by NOT comboing with Lightning Cowl would give an option that makes other choices more viable, that's a good thing. I have to default on majority + least changes. Your vote counts extra for being the originator, but this is going nowhere and there's too much on the side of not changing it that much. I'm going to make the marks temporary because that's probably more balanced anyway, and I'm going to make Aegis care about the marks. But Aegis works too well as the disappearing ult, people love free defender, and US probably works better stand-alone. You can play with your version, that's fine, but at this point I'm going to piss off more people by changing it, and when it doubt, we keep the status quo. I am sorry, this probably seems like a jerk move but I have to stop running in circles trying to make everyone happy.

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