Utility Talent/Racial Trait overhaul/revamp - New "Abilities" system

Pony Tales/Living Legends as a system has always had at its core a desire to offer character design flexibility without sacrificing performance – both in and out of combat. It's been evident in the combat system from the beginning and has afforded lots of fun character designs. On the non-combat side, it's been a progression from the beginning where certain races had specific racial traits and could only take certain utility talents, to opening up utility talents to everyone, to making races customizable with Genetic Engineering. What I've been working on for the last few weeks in collaboration with Dan and the rest of the dev team is the logical final step: merging utility talents and racial traits into one over-arching system of Abilities.

With the merging of those two systems that are really the same in everything but name, new opportunities arise. Many of you are aware of my Talent Specialization Supplement that used a point system to let people upgrade utility talents in a more granular fashion. With the new Ability system, everything had to be balanced in a point system anyway, so you'll find plenty of cases of upgrades to abilities that wouldn't cost enough to make a full utility talent before (or would maybe cost too much), but which can be accommodated easily under the new system.

For those eager to jump in and start reading, here are links to the Pony Tales and Living Legends versions of the new Abilities system:

Pony Tales Abilities
Living Legends Abilities

For those who want a little more explanation: utility talents and racial traits have been merged into one, point-buy system of abilities – things your character can do. For the most part, the majority of the old utility talents and racial traits have been ported over into the new system with each utility talent being worth 3 ability points and each racial trait point being worth 2 ability points (meaning racial traits themselves would range from 2 to 10 points in cost). You start character creation with 30 ability points to spend as you see fit. If you do the math, you might notice that this is 1 below the 31 points that would follow from a strict application of the 8 racial points and 5 utility talents you got before (8*2 + 5*3 = 31). This is because of another change to the character creation process: every character now gets an Expert Skill for free at start (similar to the two free trainings you already get). Getting an Expert Skill would have cost 4 points otherwise, so you're actually getting 3 points of stuff for free under the new system.

I think this system is an improvement over the old patch-work system we have now, but I expect there will be a bit of critical push-back. For those who really prefer the old system, Dan has stated that the old documents will be staying around so you can continue to use them if you like. For those willing to give the new system a try, we welcome any feedback – I've been tinkering with it for a while now, but it's time to open it up to the world and let all you creative folks have at it to see if you can find any problems or pitfalls we missed.

Finally, not every utility talent and racial trait is currently present as an ability. Some just don't make any sense to have any more (like the ones that gave you racial trait points for a utility talent and vice versa), some I cut to streamline the document or because they just weren't very useful or used much currently, and some morphed into slightly different forms or became upgrades of other abilities. That's not to say that missing ones are gone forever, though; if you have a particular favorite utility talent that didn't make it in we can see about adding it back. I already have plans to add a few more back in using the new format.

Edit: Also, I feel I need to stress that this is not a final draft by a long shot. I'm putting it out there so you folks can have a look at it and point out potential problems and issues. There will likely be a lot of changes in the near future, so if your favorite talent isn't in at the moment, don't panic – just politely bring it up and we'll see if we can get it back in.

FAQ:
Q: Is this the set-in-stone final version?
A: No. This is just the first draft where we felt it was good enough to release to the public. There are going to be a lot of little changes happening in the near future. So if you see a mistake, or notice that a utility talent you really like isn't in there, please feel free to bring it up and we can fix it or see about adding it back in.

Q: What happened to Laughter!?
A: Laughter has had its effects changed. The old functionality, that of a Rod of Wonder/Tons of Fun table, will be added back in as an optional expansion that DMs can choose to use, with an optional Virtue of Chaos that will act the same way. No ETA on when that'll be out though, yet, because there's no way I'm going to be able to write such a table. Feel free to go over and post ideas in the thread coming up with an official Tons of Fun table.

Q: How are things organized in the document?
A: First, by point cost. Everything with the same cost is put together. However, within that, abilities follow a pattern: first come passive abilities, then at-will abilities, then in daily abilities in order of increasing number of daily uses, then Magic abilities, and finally per-session abilities (though there are only a very few of those).

Q: How does leveling up work with this system?
A: For now, you gain 3 ability points at the levels where you would have gained a utility talent before: 2, 5, and 8. This may possibly change somewhat as finalize things.

Q: How do these ability points relate to racial trait points and utility talents?
A: 1 racial trait point = 2 ability points, 1 utility talent = 3 ability points.

Philadelphus wrote:Coming soon!

WHAT COULD IT MEAN?!  

What kind of revamp, exactly? Any details available? Also isn't it Stairc's job to hype people?

Ooh, spiffy update.

well I guess it is official we are going into 0.2 between this and the combat revamp...

"The document itself is interesting, but needed? I don't know. While I like the idea I don't see the problem with doing things in the old way. Can you describe, with character sheet examples if possible, why this system is better and more fluent then the system we had before? For example, the 30 points aren't they going to get confusing especially for new players? Also, what advanatages does this system bring apart from essentially giving me a "Sheet" my character no longer truely has a race or a talents it just has 'stuff it can do' which is fine but it does feel significanlty less like a character. Overall, it's an interrsting idea but I believe that with play testing will come bugs, kittens and breaks.

Also
Magecraft.

This is just my opinions, and feel free to tell me I'm wrong(I don't agree with you but if you want to waste the words)"

Apart from flavor, is there any significant difference between the LL and PT versions? Anything missing/added in one or the other?

There shouldn't be any differences other than flavor that I'm aware of. If you find any let me know and I'll fix them (just found one where Grandeur was worth one more point in LL than in PT).

And to think they called us crazy all that time ago when I said that they will do away with race and now look!

(read this as: I demand racial guidelines for the common races.)

Going over the new stuff and taking into account the wording of derp, I think this needs an errata that Derp's crit range extension isn't a natural one - besides, it's a drawback, it shouldn't be turned into a massive advantage with certain combos.

Let me preface this by stating that while I currently don't use it in any of my campaigns, Talent Specialization was one of the third party supplements I had the most respect for with only Pingcode's Heal Expansion surpassing it.  With that said, well...why was this needed? Or I guess the more correct question for what I'm thinking is, why was this needed before other things were fixed and straightened out?  It feels like there's an issue of time spent on this could have went into other things, especially since unlike the combat half, utilities weren't broken.  Some had balancing quirks but it didn't seem like the system itself was fundamentally broken.

With my negative reaction out of the way, I will state that there have been a fair number of decent adjustments in this.  Best positive standouts are the revamp of You’re All My Very Best Friends and buffing True Sight to two uses.  Most negative standouts are Flight taking up half your character and the things outright removed ranging from Bridle Gossip to Speak With Nature to Green Hooves.  I'm calling those out since I've got players elsewhere using them though I'm assuming Magical Tricks/Magecraft were removed while they get further adjustments.  That said, Forcefield is gone?  

• As always, I still advocate Detect Thoughts be renamed Read Thoughts.
  
• I get what you were going for with organizing with points and it makes sense.  However, it's one of those weird cases where organization feels disorganized since similar concepts are far apart.  Well, more if compared to the utility document than Genetic Engineering.
  
• I may have to resubmit my suggestion for the Found It! revamp.  The old form is hard to use.
  
• Terrify still needs a slight keyword adjustment to make it more obvious that everyone can intimidate the terrified creature.
  
• On the fence about the nerf to the Element of Magic.  Fully respect why it was done though.
  
• Big Adventure needs a sidebar comment mentioning that the teleport itself can be done even if they aren't in combat.  Arguably the detection passive should also include life threatening out of combat danger.
  
• Flight is using the old Brawn/Precision terminology instead of mentioning skill checks made to fly and allowing the range of skills.
  

Well upon taking a third look at things I am feeling more and more like this is absurdly useless. There is actually nothing new and the vast majority of all characters are going to get several nerfs and the system is going to be much harder for any new players to pick up...

It was bound to happen.  Racials and utilities have always been treated as largely contiguous.  All we're doing now is officially acknowledging that they're the same thing.

Still, I have some concerns.  This will make it harder to balance abilities, as well as to determine which abilities to choose for a specific character.  Both of these were easier when all utilities were considered equal.

Another concern has to do with why racials existed in the first place.  There are just certain abilities that members of a specific race are supposed to have, like pegasi with flying and weather crafting.  Yes, you can opt to not take those abilities, but they should be the default, and there should be a good reason why you don't have them.  Under this system, there is nothing telling the player that their pegasus should have a flying ability, that they can, at their discretion, ignore.  It's just not there.  And while many of us are familiar with pony lore enough to know what abilities each race should have, you can't assume that anyone who plays Pony Tales will have this knowledge.  This gets even more problematic with Living Legends, being generic rather than tied to a particular setting.  Living Legends has no lore to draw from.  This is going to cause some confusion when the DM informs you later in the campaign that all elves have flying abilities, or that dwarves all have telekinesis, and yet for some reason, yours doesn't.

A simple fix to this would be racial templates.  They would essentially function like the old racial system: a short list of a few abilities that most members of that race possess (likely ~8 points worth, as per the old racial system).  You are not in any way required to take those abilities if you play that race, but it serves to inform you of what to expect from that race, and what will be expected of you if you play that race.  Not taking these abilities should require you to justify it to the DM.  There's nothing wrong with playing a pegasus who can't fly, but it does require an explanation as to why, along with an acknowledgement that (a) most pegasi can fly, and (b) most ponies will expect you to be able to fly until told otherwise.

Also, I'm noticing the absence of Magecraft.  How does one do wizardy things now?

Also, I have some complaints about Telekinesis, but those should probably go in a different thread.  Basically, I think the weight/range should depend partially on the weight/size of the caster.  A 200 pound human lifting 50 pounds is significant, a 500 pound pony (or, more extremely, a full grown dragon) lifting 50 pounds, is not.

Also, am I correct in assuming that Reliance + Derp means you can reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's with a +5 bonus (but, of course, no magic points)?

And lastly: What happened to Laughter? Okay, Laughter was easily the best Element out there, and more than a bit OP. I turned a dragon lord into a pretzel in the Classical Disruption campaign using a Rod of Wonder (same effect as Laughter), so yeah, while it's unpredictable, it still usually leaves you better off than before. Either it had to go, or else the remaining Elements needed a buff to make them comparable. Still, I'd like to see it come back, possibly as an ability.

>And while many of us are familiar with pony lore enough to know what abilities each race should have, you can't assume that anyone who plays Pony Tales will have this knowledge.
but why would you be playing PT without that knowledge?

>Also, am I correct in assuming that Reliance + Derp means you can reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's with a +5 bonus (but, of course, no magic points)?
Not going to lie, this combo makes me happy

>What happened to Laughter? Okay, Laughter was easily the best Element out there, and more than a bit OP. I turned a dragon lord into a pretzel in the Classical Disruption campaign using a Rod of Wonder (same effect as Laughter), so yeah, while it's unpredictable, it still usually leaves you better off than before. Either it had to go, or else the remaining Elements needed a buff to make them comparable. Still, I'd like to see it come back, possibly as an ability.
Laughter is evil and deserves every bad thing that happened to it.

The Original Laughter is awesome it more or less is one of the most enjoyable forces in at least one of my games. (admittedly it does not capture what Pinkie does that well though...)

Can't quite say anything about that combo that has not already been said (this is not new at all I think...)

You might have been brought into the system by a friend or family member and are utterly new to everything.

tygerburningbright wrote:The Original Laughter is awesome it more or less is one of the most enjoyable forces in at least one of my games. (admittedly it does not capture what Pinkie does that well though...)

Laughter-as-is is getting turned into a DM-optional virtue like the Master of Madness Destiny was a DM-optional Destiny.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Am I one of the only people here that actually likes the changes, but I simply think it requires more work?

I'm neutral with a side order of conflicted. Some of the individual changes are good but I'm cautiously the system as a whole. It seems to clash with the concept of making things easier for newer players.

As far as the Tons of Fun table, I think the main issue would be the individual effects as opposed to the mere concept of randomness.

Personally I think this makes it even more simple, since it combines the Racials and the Utilities down into a single thing.

Oh no, there's other issues like missing options and some utilities getting reverted to their older forms and terminology. I'm just attempting to give constructive criticism as opposed to kneejerk.

Pingcode wrote:Going over the new stuff and taking into account the wording of derp, I think this needs an errata that Derp's crit range extension isn't a natural one - besides, it's a drawback, it shouldn't be turned into a massive advantage with certain combos.

Technically it is supposed to work like that, but that was codified a while back before we had things like Reliability (and before I started working on this). It might be time to revisit that decision...

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Not that many upgrades currently... I guess that will come later?

Probably. I learned some good stuff from writing the Talent Specialization System, one of them being that not everything needs to have an upgrade – less really is more, in one sense. It did give me some insight into what makes a good upgrade, so we can hopefully have fewer of them, but better ones in general. That said, there will almost certainly be more added in.

ZamuelNow wrote:It feels like there's an issue of time spent on this could have went into other things, especially since unlike the combat half, utilities weren't broken.  Some had balancing quirks but it didn't seem like the system itself was fundamentally broken.

I can tell you that various things are being worked on in parallel. I'm rubbish at combat balancing, and I did most of the gruntwork on this, so it's certainly not the case that my working on it took time away from other things. Combat balance is definitely coming along; it has a firm mathematical basis, and the monumental task of fixing/updating the combat talents is underway.

ZamuelNow wrote:Most negative standouts are Flight taking up half your character and the things outright removed ranging from Bridle Gossip to Speak With Nature to Green Hooves.  I'm calling those out since I've got players elsewhere using them though I'm assuming Magical Tricks/Magecraft were removed while they get further adjustments.  That said, Forcefield is gone?

What do you mean by Flight taking up half your character? Do you mean point cost? Because I worked it out so that the point cost is exactly equivalent to what it would have been under the old system. It's just easier to see things like that because you're dealing with a single cost, not a cost spread over two separate systems.

Other stuff can quite possibly be added back in. A lot of stuff that was kinda tricky or fairly underutilized got removed so I could focus on the stuff left behind, but I do have plans to add at least some of that stuff back in. It helps to know that people actually want it.  

ZamuelNow wrote:As always, I still advocate Detect Thoughts be renamed Read Thoughts.
-I get what you were going for with organizing with points and it makes sense.  However, it's one of those weird cases where organization feels disorganized since similar concepts are far apart.  Well, more if compared to the utility document than Genetic Engineering.
-I may have to resubmit my suggestion for the Found It! revamp.  The old form is hard to use.
-Terrify still needs a slight keyword adjustment to make it more obvious that everyone can intimidate the terrified creature.
-On the fence about the nerf to the Element of Magic.  Fully respect why it was done though.
-Big Adventure needs a sidebar comment mentioning that the teleport itself can be done even if they aren't in combat.  Arguably the detection passive should also include life threatening out of combat danger.
-Flight is using the old Brawn/Precision terminology instead of mentioning skill checks made to fly and allowing the range of skills.

-Noted. There IS a method to the madness, I'll edit it into the original post.
-Sure, go ahead.
-I'll look into that.
-Yeah. It was strictly the most powerful Element due to its versatility.
-I can add something like that first one. The second is a little difficult to define...
-Huh, so it is. I went back and checked the Utility Talents document I copied it from and it had that terminology too. I'll have to fix that, good catch.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:How does Changeling Tricky work anymore? You retrain up to 10 ability points? Does that mean all your other ability points are taken by the species's default ability points? If so, don't we need a species default list?

Not to mention, what happens if you have something like Family or simply, a high level so you get more abilities points. Are you still restricted to simply 10 ability points?

So... changeling tricky is looking confusing with no scaling or well... I can't see why anyone would take it anymore... and honestly, Magic as an Element has gotten a lot less exciting.

With Changeling's Trickery, you retain up to 10 points' worth of your abilities whenever you shape-shift. That was my attempt to work it in to the new system, which is rather difficult. I'm rather on the fence about it even being there in the first place.
And yeah, Magic is a lot more in line with the other Elements now instead of being the strictly best one.

Greywander wrote:Another concern has to do with why racials existed in the first place.  There are just certain abilities that members of a specific race are supposed to have, like pegasi with flying and weather crafting.  Yes, you can opt to not take those abilities, but they should be the default, and there should be a good reason why you don't have them.  Under this system, there is nothing telling the player that their pegasus should have a flying ability, that they can, at their discretion, ignore.  It's just not there.  And while many of us are familiar with pony lore enough to know what abilities each race should have, you can't assume that anyone who plays Pony Tales will have this knowledge.  This gets even more problematic with Living Legends, being generic rather than tied to a particular setting.  Living Legends has no lore to draw from.  This is going to cause some confusion when the DM informs you later in the campaign that all elves have flying abilities, or that dwarves all have telekinesis, and yet for some reason, yours doesn't

The problem with that is, there's actually very little that we can agree upon that a race should have. Pegasi can fly, and affect the weather, OK, unicorns can move things around with telekinesis, sure, earth ponies can...um...they can...uh...hmm. If we say "all races should have 8 points' worth of officially suggested stuff," we have to figure what it is that makes earth ponies unique – and there isn't exactly something we can point to in the show and say that. What about donkeys? What makes them unique?

I realize, it feels weird not to have a racial template – it felt really weird to me as I was working on the document. But when you get right down to it, there's very little you can point to and say "this is what makes this race unique", and what there is is not consistent. Trying to have a balanced sort of thing ends up forcing you come up with things for earth ponies so that they're "balanced" relative to the other pony races.

I could potentially see a short list of "suggested" things for each race, like "flight, weather crafting" for pegasi and "telekinesis" for unicorns, but where some races like earth ponies and donkeys would be blank slates. (And then I looked down and realized that's basically what you had proposed, heh. I can look into something like that.)

Greywander wrote:Also, I'm noticing the absence of Magecraft.  How does one do wizardy things now?

Magical Tricks will probably be added back in. Magecraft is going to get a complete overhaul, but I'm not really involved with that so I can't say exactly what will happen.

Greywander wrote:Also, am I correct in assuming that Reliance + Derp means you can reroll 1's, 2's, and 3's with a +5 bonus (but, of course, no magic points)?

That is correct.

Greywander wrote:And lastly: What happened to Laughter? Okay, Laughter was easily the best Element out there, and more than a bit OP. I turned a dragon lord into a pretzel in the Classical Disruption campaign using a Rod of Wonder (same effect as Laughter), so yeah, while it's unpredictable, it still usually leaves you better off than before. Either it had to go, or else the remaining Elements needed a buff to make them comparable. Still, I'd like to see it come back, possibly as an ability.

Forgot to mention this in the original thread, though I've edited it in there now: Laughter's effects are going to be re-done into a new, separate, official-but-optional supplement (much like Magecraft was) with a new Virtue of Chaos that players can take with the DMs permission (because there are some people who don't like Laughter or want it their campaigns, but can't exactly ban one of the Elements of Harmony at the moment). I'm not involved in writing such a table because I'm rubbish at coming up with random effects – but there's a whole thread dedicated to coming up with an official Laughter table.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Actually, now that I think about it... how would the level 4 Self-Destiny, and more importantly the Evolution destiny, work with these changes?

Destinies are getting reworked, though not by me. I believe Evolution is getting cut.
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Lastly, this is not a final draft. There are some utility talents that are missing from the new document because I was working quickly and cut them for time. That doesn't mean they're gone for good, just that they might need some thought to work back in – but knowing that people are interested in them gives me motivation to work on them.

Also, if you want to houserule anything like that in in the meantime, utility talents have a cost of 3 points.