Re: Breaking the Unbreakable

thematthew Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:49 pm

Now here's one just because I'm bored: Crescendo building.

Now for Crescendo to work well you need to get a lot of pips, ideally while setting yourself up for some crazy crap.

Specific things to look for are bonus damage, and inflicting Vulnerability.

As such, we start with something simple, like Psychic Anomaly, giving ourselves and our target Vulnerability 4. Second, We want Gather Energy, so we can Crescendo and Psychic Anomaly at the same time. Third, we want that Ritual Knife, because we need 3 more pips.

As far as other things to take, Mark of the Patron can add up quick and Critfisher can get you some crazy effects if you have Derpy's, Crippling Strike, or Assassin's Gambit.

Fun possibilities:

Turn 1: Gather Energy
Turn 2: Ritual, Mark of the Patron, Critfisher (2d10), Crescendo.

Best case scenario is that you deal double Crescendo damage to whatever you're attacking this round, and it dies a horrible screaming death so you don't have to worry about it dealing double damage back.

Next one, this got asked for by Xel in a text chat: Conjure Warden

I originally thought that building around Conjure Warden would be silly, but then I realized what you can really do with that little shit.

1) If you have a Rabbit Filled Hat, he's free.
2) If you have Roar of Challenge and/or Demand Duel you can really mess up someone's day.
3) You get to prolong fights for any of the 'build up to something crazy' builds.

So, here's what we get:

Conjure Warden
Roar of Challenge
Demand Duel
I Meant to Do That
Celestia's Light

Basically here you are going to drop Wardens and use them to force enemies into not attacking you. Then, you punish your enemies for attacking your allies, also doing a Roar of Challenge + Celestia's Light combo gives net [0] and makes it so until your next turn your wardens will survive a hit of up to 5 damage.

thematthew Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:57 pm

So here's the extra actions duo to make your GM wonder what the hell the two of you are thinking:

Guy 1:
Gather Energy
Energize
Enfeebling Curse
Stab
Where it Hurts

Has a Spellblade and Talisman of Haste

Guy 2:
Quick Tempo
Bone Splinters
Animate Bone Mite
Blood Pact
Barter in Blood/Caltrops/Whirling Blades

Has Heirophant Armor

A round with these jerks:

Round 1:
Guy 1 Turn 1: Gather Energy (5 pips)
Guy 2: Quick Tempo -> Guy 1 (3 pips), BiB (2 pips)
Guy 1 Turn 2: Energize -> Guy 2 (6 pips, Guy 2 3 pips), Enfeebling Curse Enemy (4 pips) activate Spellblade, improve initiative. Now going Before/with Guy 2 (Really doesn't matter which)

Round 2:
Guy 1 Turn 1: Gather Energy (5 pips)
Guy 2: Quick Tempo -> Guy 1 (2 pips), BiB (1 pip)*
Guy 1 Turn 2: Energize -> Guy 1(6 pips, Guy 2 2 pips), Stab (7 pips) activate Where it Hurts (5 pips) activate Spellblade, improve initiative

*This will continue until he is out of pips, at which point he uses Blood Pact so he can Quick Tempo & BiB every turn due to the Energize from Guy 1.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:43 pm

Bit of a necro-bump here, but this thread is about creating powerful combat combo's, isn't it?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:15 pm

Basically. Feel free to post here. =)

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:25 pm

Well looking through the thread, it went a bit off rails for the first few pages, but lets not go into that.

Tiny bit annoyed how my post here got a very quick reply while my combat talent thread and my combat trait thread are basicly being ignored, but lets not go into that either.

Very. Very. Simple combo this. But at the same time. Very powerful.

For this. You need three things:
Blood Pact
A way to gain PiP's
Hurricane Blade.

Recommended
Lifebound Armour, or another armour in the regen armour family.

Turn 1: Gain Pip's. Use Blood Pact.
Turn X: Gain Pip's until you can use Hurricane Blade. Use Hurricane Blade

Blood Pact = 1 pip per turn. Flash-Step = 1 pip and 2 damge to target creature per turn. Gale: 3d8 damage to three creature's (max) per turn. So for the cost of a little HP from Blood Pact, you can rapidly spam damage, and the regen armour's can easily counteract the damage you take from Blood Pact.

Simple, but effective, isn't it?

Ramsus Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:38 pm

Actually Fury, Stairc completely missed the point of this thread somehow. It was basically just thematthew seeing if he could break particular talents or such. Not about making great combos. It's purpose was to shine the spotlight on things that weren't balanced or to just see if crazy/strange could be made with things that were considered underpowered. Not that it much matters now as neither thematthew or myself are actively participating in further aiding the designers.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:40 pm

Well, from the look of the first post on page 11, it does look to be like a combo thread...

thematthew Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:14 pm

Yes. The purpose was to make combos using talents that for talents which were underrated or underutilized.

Thus making a combo around fireball.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:18 pm

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Well looking through the thread, it went a bit off rails for the first few pages, but lets not go into that.

A lot of discussion has happened in this thread about a bunch of different things. If you'd rather post in a thread focused just on making cool combos, feel free to make a new one or dig up an old one. I think I remember something like that existing before. Might be easier to get discussion on a more focused thread, as this one has a lot of varying backlog for new readers to wade through.

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Tiny bit annoyed how my post here got a very quick reply while my combat talent thread and my combat trait thread are basicly being ignored, but lets not go into that either.

Sadly, you've been cursed by the fury of the forum software. Since I've subscribed to this thread due to the fact it was a continuation of a discussion on game design I was part of, and thematthew was specifically trying to find broken things in the new expansion we'd mentioned (which was a fantastic help, thanks again for that!) - I get instant notifications if new posts turn up here. I'm extremely busy, and don't often get a chance to read all the posts on the forum. If you'd like to call anything in particular to my attention, feel free to PM me - I'll be happy to take a look when I get a free moment. santa

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Very. Very. Simple combo this. But at the same time. Very powerful.

For this. You need three things:
Blood Pact
A way to gain PiP's
Hurricane Blade.

Recommended
Lifebound Armour, or another armour in the regen armour family.

Turn 1: Gain Pip's. Use Blood Pact.
Turn X: Gain Pip's until you can use Hurricane Blade. Use Hurricane Blade

Blood Pact = 1 pip per turn. Flash-Step = 1 pip and 2 damge to target creature per turn. Gale: 3d8 damage to three creature's (max) per turn. So for the cost of a little HP from Blood Pact, you can rapidly spam damage, and the regen armour's can easily counteract the damage you take from Blood Pact.

Simple, but effective, isn't it?

And very cool. I love the use of regeneration armor in builds like this, plus this is a great use of Blood Pact. I like how simple it is, doesn't take up many slots in the build and is just great all around. Nice job.

thematthew Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:27 pm

However, the major use of having 2 pips assured every turn with the hurricane blade is to get a Typhoon Parry at every opportunity.

A good way to get started on this is to use Blood Pact and Form of the Serene Armadillo on turn 1. Turn 2 you use Hurricane Blade and Blowback. After that you can Gale + Flash Step while holding 2 pips in reserve every turn until you have to Typhoon Parry.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:39 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:
Fury of the Tempest wrote:Tiny bit annoyed how my post here got a very quick reply while my combat talent thread and my combat trait thread are basicly being ignored, but lets not go into that either.

Sadly, you've been cursed by the fury of the forum software. Since I've subscribed to this thread due to the fact it was a continuation of a discussion on game design I was part of, and thematthew was specifically trying to find broken things in the new expansion we'd mentioned (which was a fantastic help, thanks again for that!) - I get instant notifications if new posts turn up here. I'm extremely busy, and don't often get a chance to read all the posts on the forum. If you'd like to call anything in particular to my attention, feel free to PM me - I'll be happy to take a look when I get a free moment.

Well, it was more that it hadn't gotten any replies in general, but PMing you... hmmm well they aren't complete but at the same time. Lack of feed back kinda has my spirit to keep working on them go down, so I think I will

Fury of the Tempest wrote:Very. Very. Simple combo this. But at the same time. Very powerful.

For this. You need three things:
Blood Pact
A way to gain PiP's
Hurricane Blade.

Recommended
Lifebound Armour, or another armour in the regen armour family.

Turn 1: Gain Pip's. Use Blood Pact.
Turn X: Gain Pip's until you can use Hurricane Blade. Use Hurricane Blade

Blood Pact = 1 pip per turn. Flash-Step = 1 pip and 2 damge to target creature per turn. Gale: 3d8 damage to three creature's (max) per turn. So for the cost of a little HP from Blood Pact, you can rapidly spam damage, and the regen armour's can easily counteract the damage you take from Blood Pact.

Simple, but effective, isn't it?

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:And very cool. I love the use of regeneration armor in builds like this, plus this is a great use of Blood Pact. I like how simple it is, doesn't take up many slots in the build and is just great all around. Nice job.

I know right? And as you said, because it doesn't take many slots in the build its easy to fit in and you can use it whenever you need to, and can drop it and switch to a different playstyle/combo.

That's my main like about the combo, just how flexible it is.

thematthew wrote:However, the major use of having 2 pips assured every turn with the hurricane blade is to get a Typhoon Parry at every opportunity.

A good way to get started on this is to use Blood Pact and Form of the Serene Armadillo on turn 1. Turn 2 you use Hurricane Blade and Blowback. After that you can Gale + Flash Step while holding 2 pips in reserve every turn until you have to Typhoon Parry.

There is that as well, Typhoon Parry is pretty awesome. There is also Blow Away, taking 3 enemies out of combat.

Honestly through the fact that the +2 move for Hurricane Blade simply rearranges how the enemy is set-out bugs me. Its doesn't seem as good as doing 1d8 damage and then doing 2 damage to any enemy that attacks you until your next turn (Thunder Hammer's +3) 1d10 to target creature (Flametounge's +3 or Blood Weapon's +2... why is one +3 and the other +2?) Deal 3 damage and gain resist 2 (Granite's Axe +3) 1d6 damage to target creature and all creature's adjacent to it and heal that roll (Necro Sycthe +3). I mean, sure its probably useful... but its just... so underwhelming.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:45 pm

Absolutely. Hurricane Blade's +2 power is underwhelming because it has a +1 Minor Action power that actually does something good. Since Minor Actions are effectively free on top of a standard action, we cost them at 3 pips higher than a standard action (all non-standard action talents are like this, as 3 pips is what a standard action is supposed to give you when you get little effect besides the pips). Flash Step as a standard action would be a +4 power on this weapon.

So really, Hurricane Blade's +3 lets you rearrange the order of your enemies and deal 2 damage to one of them. You can also use Flash Step to turn Gale into, effectively, a -1 power. The fact it lets you hit an extra time a turn to trigger vulnerability multiple times is awesome too.

In short, Hurricane Blade's +2 is definitely underwhelming. It kind of has to be, because the +1 minor action is so good. And, as mentioned, Typhoon Parry is the bees knees.

thematthew Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:49 pm

The point of it is to do a quick recycle of who you're hitting with Gale, so that you can ensure the enemies you want to hit are all grouped together.

Also the fact that you can push monsters around to get 2 pips so you can Typhoon Parry is a big deal.

You will also note that the way I mapped out your combat you had 0 pips when you activated the Hurricane Blade, so you need something to get you going, blowback gives you those 2 pips that you need in reserve so every turn you lose 3 hp and go to 3 pips, then flash step and gale. This still leaves you 2 pips to Typhoon Parry once.

Edit: You want to talk about underwhelming powers, try Douse in Blood: 1 pip for 5hp is an insanely steep cost, even as a minor action. It's one of the reasons I say that the Ritual Knife's 3 pips for 6 hp is a tad ridiculous.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:51 pm

I figured it might of been something like that. Overall, it makes sense but still... that little nag is still there. I understand it has to be pretty mediocore or simply bad, but can it be a bit more useful then rearrange the enemies' position? Like... 1 damage to an enemy and the enemies adjcant to it? That's hardly good, but at the same time. Its more useful then what we have already.

@thematthew Thinking about it, when I entered Hurricane Blade during my test run, I could actually do that, but I didn't really notice... shame.

thematthew Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:55 pm

It's okay. Not many people really pay a whole lot of attention to what they are designing for combos and the like. As I've said before, I have almost 24 years gaming experience so I don't expect people to see some of the crazy crap that I see easily.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:57 pm

thematthew wrote:It's okay. Not many people really pay a whole lot of attention to what they are designing for combos and the like. As I've said before, I have almost 24 years gaming experience so I don't expect people to see some of the crazy crap that I see easily.

Well I kinda saw the combo myself. I just didn't see I had enough PiP's to use typhoon parry and still be okay at the time. To busy concentrating on the combo I suggested.

thematthew Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:58 pm

Oh, you could also Blood Pact and Gather Energy on turn 1, then Turn 2 Monkey's Backfist *2 and Hurricane Blade. Then every turn is Gale and Flash Step. You lose the Typhoon Parry backup, but you get to hit 2 more enemies instead.

I'm not saying you didn't see the combo, I'm just saying that I'm used to seeing things in a slightly different way that others don't necessarily. By the way, both of these setups can be yours in the same combat array.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:58 pm

thematthew wrote:
Edit: You want to talk about underwhelming powers, try Douse in Blood: 1 pip for 5hp is an insanely steep cost, even as a minor action. It's one of the reasons I say that the Ritual Knife's 3 pips for 6 hp is a tad ridiculous.

5 hp for 1 pip as a minor action is pretty powerful. After all, pair it with a [+3] power and it's 5 hp for 4 pips, plus whatever the [+3] pip power gave you.

Additionally, blood weapon is not supposed to be on par with the elemental weapons. It's supposed to be a bit on par with normal combat talents, just serving as a convenient way to bloody yourself and change combat playstyles for players that like that. 10 hp is a lot easier to get than 7 pips.

thematthew Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:01 pm

I'm done arguing things like this Dan, I'm just going to leave it at I don't agree with your logic here.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:21 pm

Too bad. Your feedback is always helpful. Well then, I'll provide this explanation for Fury's benefit, or anyone else reading. Please don't feel pressured to respond.

It seems pretty clear that gaining +1 pip for 5hp as a minor action can be... Well... Evaluated as if it's being paired with a standard action. Because the rules say it can, and I don't imagine people often skip their standard action on their turn.

+3 pips = almost 1 standard action. You get a little more bang for your buck, which is why you get the tiny effect of things like "Draw Blood". 1 ongoing damage is the difference. The entire system is based around this calculation. If you want to use a [-3] power, you have to compensate for it by using a [+3] power first (assuming you're at 0 pips when the thing begins of course, just for the ease of the example). Therefore, since [+3] powers are built to be similar to skipping your turn, a [-3] power is worth about what two [0] powers would be.

To keep effects that don't cost a standard action in check, we cost them at 3 pips more than a standard action version would cost (with some exceptions made to prevent certain combinations). This way, you're still doing about the same with free actions, interrupts, reactions or other talents that you would with a standard action. A [-3] Interrupt has to be set up by using Draw Blood or similar on your turn first. As the [-3] Interrupt is about equivalent to a [0] combat talent (usually a tiny bit less effective) - you balance out very nicely. Draw Blood gives you 3 pips and does a bit more than nothing... This [-3] Interrupt does a little less than a [0] pip standard action power. This balances out mathematically to be worth approximately the same as just using the [0] as a standard action on your turn.

As minor actions can be used for free once per turn in addition to a standard action, they carry the [-3] pricetag too. This means that you can imagine Douse in Blood as being worth about the same as a [+4] talent if it was a standard action. By that scale, it's very satisfying.

We've used this scale for balancing effects since day 1 and it's proven a very powerful method of balancing. The best examples of things becoming broken have been when we have unbound the Pip gain/effect from this strict framework. For example, It's Over! became broken when we decided to let the effect be twice as good as its cost demanded, on the assumption players wouldn't be able to trigger it until the battle was supposed to be finished anyway (later expansions got around this). Another example, Daredevil's Rush let players gain as many as 10 pips with minimal drawback (in the right combo) in a single turn. Both of these broke our cost-for-effect model as described above, and thus the builds were dramatically overpowered.

By sticking close to the, "3 pips is worth 1 standard action" model and, "players get about 1 standard action's worth of effects per round" - the system stays in good shape. It's only when we make a mistake and a brilliant combination gets around this model or we just don't properly cost an effect for its pips that things break.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:47 pm

I see... very long explanation, but also very informative.

Is there a sticky with that type of info anywhere?

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:56 pm

There isn't yet. I like writing up these things and really would like to make a sticky of them... But the first time I did that (for items cost) people said it actually made them intimidated to design items and made them not want to. This is the kind of balancing and theory that goes on behind the scenes when we do the review process.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:57 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:There isn't yet. I like writing up these things and really would like to make a sticky of them... But the first time I did that (for items cost) people said it actually made them intimidated to design items and made them not want to. This is the kind of balancing and theory that goes on behind the scenes when we do the review process.

I see... hmmm I suppose that does make sense. Would be nice if there was such a thread, but at the same time. Don't want to reduce people's creativity.

**Stairc -Dan Felder** Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:17 pm

Absolutely. I probably will post a, "behind the scenes" thread eventually - because some people (like me) love this stuff and if more people know about it, the less work we have to do when we polish ideas.

Fury of the Tempest Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:23 pm

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:Absolutely. I probably will post a, "behind the scenes" thread eventually - because some people (like me) love this stuff and if more people know about it, the less work we have to do when we polish ideas.

And wada know, I just posted a little idea on the other thread that would most likely help reduce the world load to polish the ideas.

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