Skill Support

So as some of you may or may not have noticed I've discussed the issue of some skills not being supported as much as others (or not at all in the cases of History and Streetwise) and the issue of flat bonuses to things that aren't from training, CM's, or limited use Utilities. Also the Flight & Weather-Crafting trees. Though I don't need to discuss Flight as that's already in the works apparently.

So I propose we go about trying to give all the skills proper and equal support. That's not to say every skill needs Longrunner specifically but, some sort of Utility that fills that space for that skill. Also I propose we remove things that just give extra daily uses or just give passive non-skill/CM bonuses to skills/abilities. (I'll note that Applejack of All Trades is an exception to this because of the specific way in which it works.)

The second thing is in fact what I'll address first as it's simple. Just remove the following: The Sky's the Limit, Lightning Rod, Eagle Eye, Flying Ace, It Was Behind The Sofa All Along! . See? Done.

Before we get into the heavy lifting I'll also address some not exactly related Weather-Crafting stuff. I think Weather-Crafting should be changed so that it ignores penalties from the Flight tree and can be used with Arcana in addition to Athletics and Acrobatics. This allows for non-fliers to use it and for everypony to use it equally, hooves on the ground or not.

Ok, now to balancing skill support.
So here's what we already have:

Spoiler:

So discounting things that give bonuses so large they don't really count we have:
Athletics: 7
Endurance: 3
Acrobatics: 6
Stealth: 2
Mechanics: 2
Arcana: 4
History: 0
Heal: 1
Perception: 5
Persuasion: 8
Streetwise: 0

I'm not going to say we need to look at every Utility on the list and try to make an equal for every other skill. That'd be pretty much asking the impossible. Especially since several of those things are only a bonus to a skill in a particular situation. However the broader ones should be mimicked.

My first suggestion is to make Nimble Hooves be able to be taken once per each skill.
My second is to have a version of Yee-Haw! for each Ability. (This would upgrade the Stare to a bonus to Horse-Sense instead of just Persuasion.)
Change Hop, Skip, and Jump to letting you pick which two skills it applies to. (You could still only take it once.)
I'd like more stuff in the lines of Longrunner for each skill. Doesn't need to mimick the exact mechanics of that Utility though. Basically just some passive not +X bonus. Perception's should probably include the "You suffer no penalty to your perception checks from weather conditions." from Eagle Eye.

Comparing Nimble Hooves to Stealth Mode we have a problem. They both have the same daily allotment of uses. Nimble Hooves has half the bonus for only a single check. Stealth Mode has double the bonus for all checks made for the next five minutes.

I'd like to suggest dropping Stealth Mode down to 1/Day and like I suggested for Nimble Hooves, making this be able to be taken once per skill. Thus basically you have a choice between 3/Day +5 or 1/Day +10 for the next five minutes. (Or both if you just get both Utilities.)

As an alternative to allowed people to take multiple of Nimble Hooves and Stealth Mode we could have it be that you can only take them once but for any skill you want. Thus there'd be equal skill support across all the skills but, you wouldn't have characters who started the game with 5 versions of Stealth Mode. This is probably preferable but, I think I'd like more than just my own opinion on that.

Also, we just need more Utilities that do stuff (whether actual bonuses to the skills or just work well for characters who would favor them) related to Heal, History, and Streetwise.

Longrunner equivalent Utilities

Spoiler:

Things I've suggested to change (also alternate ability versions of Yee-Haw!/The Stare)

Spoiler:

Other Utilities

Spoiler:

Medical Training (Heal and Arcana) (It doesn't specify those two but, I'd love to see someone's excuse to use Athletics for it...)

"You rolled a 50 on the laughter table, you are now obese."
"Hmm, ok Obesity is a disease right?."
"Yes..."
"Cool. In which case the cure is exercise and healthy, I want to try and burn the fat off by running as fast as I can. I'll add(or an Ally will add I can't remember if it can be used on self or not) Medical Training and gain a +10 bonus to the roll."
"...well played."

And that's all I got.

I agree with this, don't have much of use to add right now(Sleepy) and need to give it some more thought. But I certainly agree with the idea.

Ok here's an idea for Perception's Longrunner equivalent. We're just gonna call it Eagle Eye cuz if we were gonna remove half of what it did and keep the other half...

Eagle Eye: You suffer no penalty to your perception checks from weather conditions and when the PH makes a Perception check for you and rolls under a 10, they treat the roll result as a 10.

Edit: I'm not sure if 10 is too high. I was also thinking of going with 8. I'd certainly appreciate opinions.

I mentioned this already in the Skype chat Ramsus, but I kind of like what you're going for here. There have been times when I've been bummed out that there weren't more skills for Mechanics for instance.

The problem with trying to equalize all the stats though is that the stats aren't all created equal in the first place. For instance, Perception will usually see a lot more use than Heal or Endurance, since you're just going to need to be aware of your surroundings a lot more often than you'll be healing ponies and enduring noxious clouds and heavy weights. If we just make all the stats have a 3/day +5 bonus option or a 1/day +10 option, that wouldn't balance them out I don't think. That would just make stats like Perception (which are more often used) that much better.

I'd like to see more skills specialized for each stat, but we'd need to probably determine which stats were overused first and balance the skills based on that. Maybe there would be another way to do it too, but you get the idea.

Hmmm. Well, what skills get used the most is probably a factor of the GM, the setting, and the players and will differ for every game. I'm not sure how to go about dealing with things from that angle since it's always in a state of flux. Admittedly Perception is probably gonna get a good deal of use no matter what.

Still, I don't see an issue with giving the Nimble Hooves and Stealth mode versions to all skills since they're limited in use and it wouldn't make a lot of sense mechanically speaking to single certain skills out to not have the option to do so.

As for giving the other skills more support, certainly after we come up with Longrunner equivalents for every skill we would want to focus on just making more Utilities for skills that don't see as many Utilities. Mostly it's just that there are a lot of Utilities for Athletics, Acrobatics, Arcana, Persuasion, and Perception and everything else just needs some more. I'm not sure if we'll every really get many things that utilize Endurance because of the way it is but, at least that's countered out by the fact that when you need Endurance you really need it and that it doesn't really usually matter if someone else is good at it, only if you are. Stealth and Mechanics at least get a lot of in game use depending on the setting and such. However, Heal, History, and Streetwise just straight up need more stuff to be on equal footing.

I also like what you are doing here, and I'm taking an interest in the work being done (thought I have some personal projects tying me up at the moment.)

Just as a note: XandZero2 comment about some skills getting used more often then others is partially why everything doesn't have a long-runner equivalent. Though Mechanics, History or Healing would be fine to get some version Athletics and Perception (which are two of the most used skills) get used so often Dan doesn't want to give them as many flat bonus's. Though things like Sunderblade that provide specific parameters for the bonus are fine.

Besides that though; well done. We are both impressed that you took the time to make a score sheet for each skill and its utility talent support.

-Weather Crafter will certainly be getting an Arcana option. The only reason it doesn't have one is because the original version of the game was Pony only and not that fleshed out. It's somewhat of a relic from before.

Hmmm, well, since I was removing the old Eagle Eye I felt that the half of it that was good needed a home. I can easily avoid making one for Athletics I'm sure. Or at least you could just ignore it if it seems like another unnecessary buff Athletics doesn't need. I'll probably end up feeling compelled to make one anyway if we get all the other skills covered.

I'm more concerned about Weather-Crafting getting a freedom from being penalized from Flight penalties. I sorta figured the Arcana option was a shoe in at this point.

I've come up with some more and decided to go with the 8 version for the Perception one for now. Also I came up with something else that's not really related to this concept but, I'm throwing it down here anyway.

If You Want Something Done Right...
If you roll to aid someone else's roll and you get a higher roll result, you may choose to swap the roll results. (Note: Just roll results, not bonuses, etc.)

Eagle Eye
You suffer no penalty to your Perception checks from weather conditions and when the PH makes a Perception check for you and rolls under na 8, they treat the roll result as an 8.

Black Cat
If you fail a Stealth check, the next time you make a Stealth check you may treat the roll result as a 13 after seeing the result.

Well, I Fixed the Problem
If you roll a 1 on a Mechanics check you may treat it as if you had rolled a 20 (not a nat 20) and flip a coin. On a tails your success is short lived, the lock you were picking opens and then breaks, etc.

A Cacophony of Whispers
If you roll a 3 or under on a Streetwise check and fail, you may roll 2d20 on your next Streetwise check. (Note: You can't double CMC or Critically Fail. You can do both though.)

Nurse!
If you successfully aid someone's roll using the Heal skill you add +3 if you are trained in Heal and +5 if your Cutie Mark is in Heal to their result. If someone successfully aids your rolls using Heal you add +3 if they are trained in Heal and +5 if their Cutie Mark is in Heal to your result. Additionally if you are incapable of successfully rolling a Heal check on yourself, anyone who rolls a Heal check on you or aids them is treated as if they have training in Heal.


"Longrunner" versions still needed for: Athletics (not really though), Acrobatics, History, Persuasion.

Q: Hey Ramsus aren't you forgetting Ar-
A: No. Arcana has It's Witchcraft!, it really doesn't need more support for the sake of support.

Ramsus wrote:Black Cat
If you fail a Stealth check, the next time you make a Stealth check you may treat the roll result as a 13 after seeing the result.

A Cacophony of Whispers
If you roll a 3 or under on a Streetwise check and fail, you may roll 2d20 on your next Streetwise check. (Note: You can't double CMC or Critically Fail. You can do both though.)

Both of these can be abused by spamming rolls in a safe environment until you fail...

Ramsus wrote:Well, I Fixed the Problem
If you roll a 1 on a Mechanics check you may treat it as if you had rolled a 20 (not a nat 20) and flip a coin. On a tails your success is short lived, the lock you were picking opens and then breaks, etc.

I LOVE THIS TALENT.... It so awesomeness.

Paper Shadow wrote:

Ramsus wrote:Black Cat
If you fail a Stealth check, the next time you make a Stealth check you may treat the roll result as a 13 after seeing the result.

A Cacophony of Whispers
If you roll a 3 or under on a Streetwise check and fail, you may roll 2d20 on your next Streetwise check. (Note: You can't double CMC or Critically Fail. You can do both though.)

Both of these can be abused by spamming rolls in a safe environment until you fail...

Well, I like the way they work mechanically. Do you have a way to phrase them so that they don't? Otherwise I'd just suggest GMs not let people pull shenanigans.

@Xel: Thanks. =)

Roll Log
When you make a History check you may choose, instead of rolling, to take the last roll result of an ally. (You can't nat 20 this way.)

Push Yourself
When you make an Athletics check and roll under 10, if you would fail but, would succeed if you had gotten your roll result +5 or less , you succeed.

Silver Tongued
When you make a contested Persuasion check or your Persuasion sets the DC for something, any parties rolling against you/the DC must roll twice and use the lower result.

Trip Flip
When you make an Acrobatics check and roll a 3 or under you may treat it as if you had rolled a 10.

I'll also put my new proposed versions of stuff that already exists that I mentioned I'd like changed here.

Nimble Hooves – 3/Day
When you take this Utility, choose a skill. Gain a +5 bonus to a check of that skill or any other check that deals with fine manipulation using your hooves.

Stealth Mode – 1/Day (Probably would need a new name at this point)
Preparation Time: 5 Seconds
When you take this Utility, choose a skill. For the next five minutes you gain a +10 bonus to your checks of that skill.

Hop, Skip and Jump - 2/Day
When you take this Utility, choose two skills. On your next check of either of those skills, you may roll 3d10 instead of 1d20 and take the total value of the three dice.

Weather-Crafter
Preparation Time: 5 Minutes
You can to alter the atmospheric conditions in a 100-foot radius. For example, you can make a sunny day rain or a rainy day clear up within the area of effect. You can also attempt a more difficult feat, such as creating a localized hurricane or forcing thunderstrikes out of clouds to hit tall objects. These more difficult tasks require a Athletic, Acrobatics, or Arcana check set at the DM’s discretion. You do not suffer flight related penalties to weather-crafting.

Edit: Whoops forgot Yee-Haw!/The Stare stuff. Yee-Haw! we just leave alone.

The Stare – Magic Interrupt
Trigger – You or an ally you can see makes a Horse-Sense check.
Effect – After seeing the result of the roll, you can choose to add a +20 bonus to the check.

Frozen Time – Magic Interrupt
Trigger – You or an ally you can see makes a Precision check.
Effect – After seeing the result of the roll, you can choose to add a +20 bonus to the check.

Book Fort...e – Magic Interrupt
Trigger – You or an ally you can see makes a Knowledge check.
Effect – After seeing the result of the roll, you can choose to add a +20 bonus to the check.

After talking to thematthew about the potential problems of Black Cat and A Cacophony of Whispers we determined.... they weren't a problem. If you fail a Stealth check it's never a good thing. If you get a 1-3 on a Streetwise check and fail that's something you can't roll to find out more about for a good while, additionally if you critically fail (which will be every time you could get a benefit from this Utility) that's something you have completely incorrect information about. Basically, spamming those skills in an attempt to get the benefit of the Utility is going to lead to disaster even without requiring a GM to go out of their way to stop such behavior.

Now that It's Witchcraft is receiving a prerequisite, I guess it deserves a Utility from me. Or really it's more like I just thought up something and there's no compelling reason not to share the idea.

Cuz...Magic?
When you make an Arcana check to aid someone, you may flip a coin. On a heads you automatically succeed in your attempt to aid the roll. Additionally if you know the rough location of an ally and have a reasonable excuse to know they are making a roll you could aid them on, you may roll Arcana to do so. (Though you don't get to flip a coin for this.)


Yup, I'm well aware people could use It's Witchcraft to modify this to allow them to remotely aid people using other skills. I find this hilarious and thus perfectly ok.

Edit: Edited stuff into the first post. That's right, I made an edit about how I made an edit. Whoop de bucking doo. =P

It's harder to come up with an example for "cacophony of whispers," But for black cat, all you have to do is mock hide in the ferns/trees/closet around the rest area constantly, and roll stealth checks until you roll a natural 1. Then you grin sheepishly, stop, and leave your newly gained safety net in tact until there's real action. There's been massive amounts of talk about why making the PH handle abuses like this in the flaws thread that was really active a few weeks ago, but I'll just summarize it extremely briefly:

-It requires an official house rule about natural 1s not being automatic failures if you still pass the DC, which will make the player pout and spoil the mood.
-Making people think abuses like this are even supposed to be possible encourages them to do this and find more situations where they can do this.
-It truncates gameplay massively. The rest of the group has to sit there while one person rolls a die for 5 minutes straight, waiting for a nat 1.

There's probably a way to alter the wording so the exploit isn't possible, but I have homework to do, so I'm going to dwell on that later. They may have come up with a way to bypass the abuse in the flaw thread, so if anyone cares to check there, we might find something. I really want these utilities to be a thing because I'm currently playing an all-rounder sort of character who would greatly appreciate some small, passive bonuses to each skill.

That example doesn't really work. You can't make Stealth check with nothing to hide from. You basically auto-pass before you even get to roll. Still, is someone offers me better wording that doesn't change the effect, I'd really appreciate it all the same.

Edit: I'm glad my ideas are of use to someone.

Very good point on the lack of utilities for History and Streetwise especially since pending on the situation, they could potentially overlap.  It's interesting that these two are so lacking in utility options when these are the skills that probably best for someone attempting to play the 'normal' of the group.  Here's a few ideas:

I Think I've Heard This Before:

Sometimes characters simply know things and theoretically shouldn't fail the basics though they may not know the fine details.  Essentially, an official version of the ability to "take 10" in other systems.  Seems good for a well read and/or well traveled character.  I'm quite sure there's holes in this but that's why this is a discussion.

Insane Troll Logic:

Sort of a victory through failure setup.  It's a genuine crit fail (your book of knowledge catches fire, you accidentally insult a local guide, etc) but you do get the information you need in a roundabout way.  May take a lot of brainstorming to finalize this.  Trying to go for something more unique than just a flat boost and befitting quirkier characters.

I like Insane Troll Logic, it basically lets the GM determine how much they want to give away and results in the players getting something of use. And it's just amusing.

I Think I've Heard This Before has the issue that History and Streetwise checks for places are generally not pass/fail but, you get more information on how good your roll was. That said, the idea in general is a good one. It could give a bonus to the roll in that situation or something else.

Local Lore – 3/day
Gain a bonus on your next Streetwise equal to 1/2 the number you roll on the d20 used to make the check.

Basically, the higher you roll, the better the bonus. Could also possibly be "Streetwise or History", and maybe equal to 5/day

Hmmmm, that could get really strong with a good roll even at half. I'd say, assuming we're combining this and Zamuel's suggestion, that it should be History and Streetwise and maybe 2/day.

So maybe like so?:

Local Lore 2/Day
Upon encountering a new place or situation, you gain a bonus on your next History or Streetwise check equal to 1/2 (round up) the number you roll on the d20 used to make the check.

Added those two to the bottom spoiler in the first post.

Eagle Eye - Original:

Considering it's popped up in recent conversation, I believe I've come up with a way of keeping Eagle Eye's flavor without it being a flat stat bonus.

Eagle Eye - Revised:

Well, I'd already made an alternate version of Eagle Eye but, that would be fine too.

More History concepts.  Open to renaming the second one and it could probably stand mild rewording as well.

Questionable Credentials:

Armchair Quarterback:

Armchair Quarterback really amuses me.

Edit: Since nobody had anything to say about the ideas, I've edited them into the first post.