Leveling Up - A Friendship Has Been Detected

The Warrior of Many Faces wrote:Hmmm, that might work. Not reducing their will to fight, just making the end of that will come faster. Could work, I suppose. The main problem being how exactly do you scale that so that the monsters don't become too easy too quickly?

Well, that problem is easy to solve. You just build the monsters the same way as always - you don't need to do anything different. However, if the group encounters something significantly below or above their level - you change the HP and damage significantly. What used to be a Boss Battle at level 1 might be a minion when the party is level 10. You just call it the same thing.

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:

The Warrior of Many Faces wrote:Hmmm, that might work. Not reducing their will to fight, just making the end of that will come faster. Could work, I suppose. The main problem being how exactly do you scale that so that the monsters don't become too easy too quickly?

Well, that problem is easy to solve. You just build the monsters the same way as always - you don't need to do anything different. However, if the group encounters something significantly below or above their level - you change the HP and damage significantly. What used to be a Boss Battle at level 1 might be a minion when the party is level 10. You just call it the same thing.

Almost like a video game, where if you go through earlier levels near the end of the game, really tough fights then are a piece of cake now? If so, I think I get it.

The Warrior of Many Faces wrote:

Stairc -Dan Felder wrote:

The Warrior of Many Faces wrote:Hmmm, that might work. Not reducing their will to fight, just making the end of that will come faster. Could work, I suppose. The main problem being how exactly do you scale that so that the monsters don't become too easy too quickly?

Well, that problem is easy to solve. You just build the monsters the same way as always - you don't need to do anything different. However, if the group encounters something significantly below or above their level - you change the HP and damage significantly. What used to be a Boss Battle at level 1 might be a minion when the party is level 10. You just call it the same thing.

Almost like a video game, where if you go through earlier levels near the end of the game, really tough fights then are a piece of cake now? If so, I think I get it.

Exactly. That's definitely going to happen in the system, the question is how to do it. Players like to see their own numbers go up, but it's a design difficulty for various reasons and requires extra book-keeping.

I'm really tempted to just do everything by adjusting monster stats. It could be easier. Anyone else have a preference?

Hmm, the monster adjusting certainly works and is interesting.

Did you give any thought to "the boring stuff" not being "everyone gets this" and instead be options? Like say a choice between +10 health, +5 health +1 power, or +2 power? Or such? Though this would probably just end up being more bookkeeping and balancing to worry about. Still, figured I'd throw the idea out there anyway. It's good to at least say "yes, we had that thought and considered it".

Ramsus wrote:Hmm, the monster adjusting certainly works and is interesting.

Did you give any thought to "the boring stuff" not being "everyone gets this" and instead be options? Like say a choice between +10 health, +5 health +1 power, or +2 power? Or such? Though this would probably just end up being more bookkeeping and balancing to worry about. Still, figured I'd throw the idea out there anyway. It's good to at least say "yes, we had that thought and considered it".

Yep, we did think of that. That's what comes with the traits. But we are definitely worried about combat no longer being fun if things get completely out of whack and you can just boost health or just boost power.

I'm really tempted to go with Monster adjusting. It could very well work, if DMs make it clear that the monsters are changing in relationship to the players. And then I could go back and rewrite some of the talents to make them easier (weird traits and talents that refer to things like '1/5th your maximum hp' could just say, "6 hp" since they no longer have to scale to hp totals above 30.

Hmm... I like this idea more and more. I'm not certain players would appreciate it though unless it's very clear that the enemies they used to struggle against now go down in one hit.

Unlike many (most?) other systems, in Pony Tales your HP and damage don't depend on attributes, but instead are either fixed (HP) or dependent on individual combat talents. The practical upshot of that is that it's easy to increase HP (just add +X) upon level up, but it's very difficult to increase damage in any sort of consistent way. (Does Draw Blood now deal 2 ongoing damage instead of 1, and is that balanced with Stab going from 1d10 to 1d10+1?) Dealing with leveling up by decreasing the difficulty of monsters is certainly one way to do it, and would probably be easiest, but as Stairc mentioned, people like to see their stats go up. My personal preference is to have some sort of meaningful increase happen. Dilemmas, dilemmas...

Ok, so, here's another idea (pardon me if it's already been considered): what if combat talents had specific levels of power that you gained upon reaching the appropriate level? For example:
[+1] Stab
Level 1: Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.
Level 4: Damage increased to 1d10 + 1d4.
Level 7: Damage increased to 1d10 + 1d8.
Level 10: Damage increased to 2d10.

This is just a rough example I hacked out in 5 minutes, it's probably completely unbalanced and you could have the level of granularity by more or less as well. I also picked a rather bland talent for the example; for something like Wild Lightning, higher levels could either increase damage or increase the number of targets hit (or both), or perhaps have a chance to cause additional effects like blindness or confusion. Another idea is that not all talents would need to level up at the same rate: Vengeance is Mine, for instance, could just have one level up at, say, level 5 that goes from simply returning damage to the attacker to returning damage and adding an effect.

Pros: it makes players feel like they're tangibly becoming stronger. If I get an extra die to roll for damage, or an extra target for an ability, or my attacks now have a chance to blind enemies it definitely feels like my character has become more powerful. Monsters can continue to level up with the players, and battles can become more epic-feeling in scope as the game progresses.

Cons: it could be somewhat confusing, although hopefully having the increases be only at specified levels and having the entire party level up at once will cut down on that. Everyone would just need to remember to change their character sheet. It would also be a lot of work to come up with balanced ideas for higher levels of power, probably more than re-balancing monsters.

I'd be happy to help with adding new levels to abilities, but I understand that it is a lot of work, so if everyone just wants to re-work monsters I'll be fine with that.

Philadelphus wrote:Unlike many (most?) other systems, in Pony Tales your HP and damage don't depend on attributes, but instead are either fixed (HP) or dependent on individual combat talents. The practical upshot of that is that it's easy to increase HP (just add +X) upon level up, but it's very difficult to increase damage in any sort of consistent way. (Does Draw Blood now deal 2 ongoing damage instead of 1, and is that balanced with Stab going from 1d10 to 1d10+1?) Dealing with leveling up by decreasing the difficulty of monsters is certainly one way to do it, and would probably be easiest, but as Stairc mentioned, people like to see their stats go up. My personal preference is to have some sort of meaningful increase happen. Dilemmas, dilemmas...

Ok, so, here's another idea (pardon me if it's already been considered): what if combat talents had specific levels of power that you gained upon reaching the appropriate level? For example:
[+1] Stab
Level 1: Deal 1d10 damage to target creature.
Level 4: Damage increased to 1d10 + 1d4.
Level 7: Damage increased to 1d10 + 1d8.
Level 10: Damage increased to 2d10.

This is just a rough example I hacked out in 5 minutes, it's probably completely unbalanced and you could have the level of granularity by more or less as well. I also picked a rather bland talent for the example; for something like Wild Lightning, higher levels could either increase damage or increase the number of targets hit (or both), or perhaps have a chance to cause additional effects like blindness or confusion. Another idea is that not all talents would need to level up at the same rate: Vengeance is Mine, for instance, could just have one level up at, say, level 5 that goes from simply returning damage to the attacker to returning damage and adding an effect.

Pros: it makes players feel like they're tangibly becoming stronger. If I get an extra die to roll for damage, or an extra target for an ability, or my attacks now have a chance to blind enemies it definitely feels like my character has become more powerful. Monsters can continue to level up with the players, and battles can become more epic-feeling in scope as the game progresses.

Cons: it could be somewhat confusing, although hopefully having the increases be only at specified levels and having the entire party level up at once will cut down on that. Everyone would just need to remember to change their character sheet. It would also be a lot of work to come up with balanced ideas for higher levels of power, probably more than re-balancing monsters.

I'd be happy to help with adding new levels to abilities, but I understand that it is a lot of work, so if everyone just wants to re-work monsters I'll be fine with that.

Well traits kind of cover this already, don't they? I mean if you want to get bonus damage as you level up, those are the types of traits that you choose, where as if you want something more defensive, you choose those traits. I don't think Pony Tales is really aiming to increase the characters power and effectiveness as steeply as in most RPG level systems. It seems to be aiming more towards your character becoming about twice as powerful by level 10 as when they started (By my current estimate any way). Besides, I'd rather add neat global effects to my battle, as opposed to have to roll a larger number of dice as I level up. This way the battle won't get bogged down, even at higher levels (which is something I found kind of frustrating with dungeons and dragons; the battles ended up taking so long at paragon tier, that I had to half the monster HP and double their damage.)

Besides, we don't really have a monster-level system out, so that means that if the combat power of the players doesn't vary too much, then we can have a larger roster of monsters to choose from; instead just looking at the 10% of the monsters that won't instantly obliterate your party. I remember moments when planning a session for my players and looking through the monster manual and thinking: 'Oh, that monster would be perfect... If only it wasn't such a high level.' Which meant if I wanted to include the monster I had to scale the monster to the appropriate level. A fun, but time consuming task.

I was talking to my friend, whom I play Pony Tales and DnD with, and we got into a discussion regarding the level system. With a bit of speculation, we came to an agreement. We figure that the game could run very well without a level system at all, so long as the Pony Handler rewarded the players effectively for their accomplishments.

So I guess what I'm saying through all this is: Traits, as well as the natural bonus damage and HP are probably enough of a perk as you level up.

Here's an idea: instead of +1 damage, you get +2 PiP. It makes more sense in my head.

I do support upgradable abilities/talents.

Masterweaver wrote:Here's an idea: instead of +1 damage, you get +2 PiP. It makes more sense in my head.

I do support upgradable abilities/talents.

I don't think that changing the starting pips would be too great an idea, unless it were a trait, which provides a certain spice to your character's combat style. (Though +2 starting pips would be a very powerful trait indeed, I could see it as a higher level trait that branches off with the prerequisite of Fleet-Foot).

I think pips should remain at 4 to start, because a fundamental part of creating new moves and balancing them, as well as creating monsters, relies quite heavily on the whole 'you start with 4 pips' thing. Once you start changing those starting numbers, the moves and monsters become that much harder to balance. It could change the whole late-game into a much more stressful time for the Pony Handler. That said, I'm still curious to see how the whole leveling-up process will look when all is said and done.

So Stairc, any thought to what happens at level 4? I was thinking maybe adding another trained skill would be good.

Ramsus wrote:So Stairc, any thought to what happens at level 4? I was thinking maybe adding another trained skill would be good.

Destinies. You start it at Level 4, and get additional bonuses from your Destiny at level 7 and 10.

I have to say that earning Talents should be somewhere in the system....

Masterweaver wrote:I have to say that earning Talents should be somewhere in the system....

Certain combat traits will grant you additional talents. As is, I feel like if we kept getting more combat talents, my character sheet would start feeling pretty clunky, and choosing from them before getting into combat would take a lot longer. Though, that's my person thoughts on this, I'm not sure how everyone else feels on having them limited in this fashion.

I meant Utility Talents.

Aren't we getting those at most levels? I know Stairc has them listed for the level 2 level up.

....Whoops. Derped, didn't see that.

I was thinking of letting the players in my game gain, upon reaching level 2, +5 hp, 1 combat trait and 1 utility talent.

I'm not adding extra damage because that can be acquired with certain combat trait nor scaling attack damage up or monsters down yet. I think for a level 2 group, the current enemies should still prove enough.

Right. Forgot about this for a bit. So elsewhere on the forum Stairc mentioned the current plan is to only gain a total of three Utility talents (at least between level 1-10, 10 being the cap until the first expansion pack comes out... =P). I don't know about everyone else but this is waaaay lower than what my expectations were. I had figured that since the levels are only 1-10 and FiM is not yet over that the Mane 6 are probably not max level. Yet they clearly would have way more Utilities than a measly 8-9 each. Based on that I initially figured we'd be getting a Utility almost every level. So, I'd like to suggest that we at least change the current rate of Utility gain to every even numbered level. That way we don't end up with way too many and we also very nicely end up with 10 at level 10 (except for Unicorns who would have 11).

Ramsus wrote:Right. Forgot about this for a bit. So elsewhere on the forum Stairc mentioned the current plan is to only gain a total of three Utility talents (at least between level 1-10, 10 being the cap until the first expansion pack comes out... =P). I don't know about everyone else but this is waaaay lower than what my expectations were. I had figured that since the levels are only 1-10 and FiM is not yet over that the Mane 6 are probably not max level. Yet they clearly would have way more Utilities than a measly 8-9 each. Based on that I initially figured we'd be getting a Utility almost every level. So, I'd like to suggest that we at least change the current rate of Utility gain to every even numbered level. That way we don't end up with way too many and we also very nicely end up with 10 at level 10 (except for Unicorns who would have 11).

I can't speak for anypony else, but I personally would find myself wondering what to do with all these extra utilities. Getting too many might make it so that a character takes a trait that may not make sense for them ("How come you're so clumsy lately? It's not like you." [Derp]) or that they logically should have had from the start ("What's that? You can see in the dark? Well, how come you didn't mention it before?" "Because I couldn't do it before." "..." [Nightwatch]). Nonetheless, I shall abide by whatever is decided; this is just my two cents.

Indeed. There are Boons, Traits, Destinies, and Combat Talents to get as well, and in my opinion I'd rather have them spaced out; get a Utility Talent, then a Trait, then a Boon, then a Destiny, etc., before coming around again (with a few overlaps). I think it helps keep all of them unique and fresh.

And you don't get something every level, I imagine.
Probably go something like:
Level 2: combat trait + utility talent
Level 5: combat talent
Level 8: combat trait + boon
Level 10: destiny

With regular stat increases along the way on the other levels, such as:
Level 2: +5 hp
Level 3: increase damage/die for combat talents
Level 4: 2 attribute points. Cannot be used to raise an attribute higher than 10
Level 6: +5 hp
Level 7: increase damage/die for combat talents
Level 9: 2 attribute points. Attributes can now be raised higher than 10
And so on and so forth.

There's only 10 levels. You have to get something every level. And correct me if I'm wrong but, the point of this system is to emulate the show no? So my point about how much stuff the Mane 6 still applies. I'm not talking about 20 Utilities, just 10. As opposed to Stairc's current projected 8. So that's just two more anyway but, I think those two more, coming with more frequency is a lot better. Are you guys really saying you can't think up 2 more things your character can learn how to do?

Demonu, I'm pretty sure Stairc's current plan involves characters not gaining HP or damage but just adjusting monsters' hp/damage as you level up.

I dunno how I feel about increasing attributes. Not bad but, I could easily live without it given there's so much more interesting stuff to gain. If it came between a choice of attributes and utilities I'd pick utilities hands down every time. They're just more interesting that a numbers boost. Since we're here while the system is being developed, I think we should take the opportunity to try and make the choice of having mechanics that are interesting and less the same old boring stuff we've always seen. So in my opinion the things we should gain while leveling up should be: utilities, boons (great great idea!), combat traits (we don't need to gain combat talents leveling up since one of the traits is gaining another combat talent), skill training (just once or twice ever, that's really all that's needed), destiny (I thought that was coming in at level 5, why do you have it at 10?). No flat numbers boosts, just increasing your options every level. (Ok so technically skill training is a flat numbers boost but, I find it more interesting that more hp/damage or stat increases.)

So here would be an outline for my ideas I guess:

Level 2: Utility, Combat trait
Level 3: Boon, Combat trait
Level 4: Utility, Skill training
Level 5: Destiny
Level 6: Utility, Boon
Level 7: Combat trait (<Destiny feature?)
Level 8: Utility, Skill training (or maybe second Cutie Mark skill, though I would say no stacking both on the same skill because blargh)
Level 9: Boon, Combat trait
Level 10: Utility (< Destiny feature?)

I used the combat traits to just fill gaps in evenness of gains, that's why they have such random placement. The reason I coupled something with Boons every time is because boons isn't something your character is getting per say. Destiny is probably big enough to stand alone at that level.

What do you mean, there are only 10 levels?
Where is that written? (I thought it went to 30)

Demonu wrote:What do you mean, there are only 10 levels?
Where is that written? (I thought it went to 30)

I'm not sure where it's written, but try the opening post of this thread. I can confirm, however, that it is indeed 10.

The Warrior of Many Faces wrote:

Demonu wrote:What do you mean, there are only 10 levels?
Where is that written? (I thought it went to 30)

I'm not sure where it's written, but try the opening post of this thread. I can confirm, however, that it is indeed 10.

Yeah, 10 in the core rules. So let's focus on those before thinking beyond the 10th level mark.